[RUMOUR] Vive 2.0 coming early 2017

[Humbug]

1 hour ago, Sakkura said:

was a problem when games would require EGA and some people only had CGA. We've just outgrown the problem for monitors.

 

It's going to be difficult to design a game to look good across a wide variety of resolutions (and display quality levels more generally), because of the design limitations that are currently imposed

PC (including PC gaming) is all about fragmentation with a layer of industry standards and cross-vendor APIs to ensure everything works.

It's what allows multiple hardware vendors and software vendors to innovate and compete against each other.

It's the reason PCs have been on the cutting edge of so many developments.

It also allows multiple market segments to be targeted, that's why you can build an $800 or a $3000 PC depending on your budget and use case.

 

In time to come there's gonna be people who want to buy a $300 VR experience and there's gonna be people who will spend $1000 on an HMD with higher refresh rate etc.

 

The probable reason that Valve stepped back from taking a cut on hardware or putting their name on the HTC Vive is that they probably figured since they are the owners of Steam the most favorable course of action for them was to provide the APIs like steamVR and openVR ensuring hardware interoperability and in time the competition between hardware vendors would drive the industry forward. Today it's just Oculus Rift and HTC Vive, tomorrow there will be more. And that's how PC rolls...

[unsubscribed]

On 7/17/2016 at 9:48 PM, SamStrecker said:

If they sell it for $599 or $499 then they will sell a ton. I agree the price is pretty steep but does include a lot. Maybe the first round will help lower the price of the second

I would not buy it even for $450. It has to be around $299 to make it anywhere worth considering. Especially since $299 will become £299 translated to €360 in Europe. Still crazy expensive. I get it you get device with low latency screen, two wireless controllers and few laser beacons but still... Costs have to come down.

For $499 you and some others will buy it. It won't take market by a storm though. Price has to be affordable to everyone, including countries that aren't filled with people begging to take away their thousands for VR. 

GPUs are only beginning to catch up. We'll be spitting against wind for another 2 years until it will become game changer. As I mentioned before - it is more fun for ordinary man to go chasing Pikachu as this is affordable and accessible. Don't get me wrong VR is amazing, I tried and loved it and I can't wait to own one but it is still in infant stage and unless it becomes cheaper than any console it is just not worth it.

[christianled59]

On 7/17/2016 at 3:39 PM, AluminiumTech said:

As a hobbyist programmer, I would still focus on PC until VR is a replacement for PCs.

 

PC software and game development is way easier than VR game development or software development.

 

All VR does is adds cost and complexity where people were just compaining

As a VR developer myself, I find developing for the Vive easier than developing for a monitor. (as far as games go). It eliminates a lot of the factors you have to consider when it comes to interaction. For example, I don't have to go through weeks of adding animations for an arm to pick something up. I can literally add that function in a couple of minutes for a VR game.

 

The only "difficult" thing about developing for VR is you have to come up with your own mechanics. There isn't much of a standard for anything. 

 

 

[Remixt]

On 7/16/2016 at 6:57 AM, Supermangik said:

I'm sorry, but I just don't feel like VR will be the next new gaming experience. It's literally just another Wii, but you're viewing it through goggles.

I wholeheartedly (and respectfully) disagree. I only have the Gear VR which is pretty trivial as far as VR goes and it's already blowing my mind. Watching netflix alone is exciting. I can't wait to get a Vive.

[DXMember]

lol so soon for a replacement

didn't even last one console gen

 

still better wait for StarVR

[Sparviero]

6 hours ago, DXMember said:

lol so soon for a replacement

didn't even last one console gen

 

still better wait for StarVR

What? We want there to be many revisions and updates. 

[DXMember]

4 hours ago, Sparviero said:

What? We want there to be many revisions and updates. 

you one of them?

[Nizkus]

13 hours ago, DXMember said:

lol so soon for a replacement

didn't even last one console gen

 

still better wait for StarVR

As long as SteamVR doesn't drop support for older headsets why would anyone be against newer revisions. 

[DXMember]

5 minutes ago, Nizkus said:

As long as SteamVR doesn't drop support for older headsets why would anyone be against newer revisions. 

If I was to pay $800 for a hardware that promisses superior experience that has very little to no content at all and be told that in a couple of weeks a new revision comes,

I'd be really pissed and want my Money back and also be questioning - why didn't they have it in the initial release? - maybe it was a cash grab?

 

to be clear - I'm not against new revisions and better products

I'm against dumb cash grabs releasing half baked products, like the gaming industry tends to do in the recent years

[porina]

36 minutes ago, DXMember said:

If I was to pay $800 for a hardware that promisses superior experience that has very little to no content at all and be told that in a couple of weeks a new revision comes,

I'd be really pissed and want my Money back and also be questioning - why didn't they have it in the initial release? - maybe it was a cash grab?

 

to be clear - I'm not against new revisions and better products

I'm against dumb cash grabs releasing half baked products, like the gaming industry tends to do in the recent years

I'm kinda in that situation, but don't view it so negatively.

 

Product development isn't sequential, in that you don't wait until the product is out of the door before starting the next one. It is pipelined so there was likely work being done on the 2nd version before the 1st shipped. I wouldn't be surprised if they were also looking at what to put in the 3rd one too and planning beyond that.

 

Chances are, with such a short cycle, it wont be a radical difference. Maybe changes to improve user experience like reduced size/weight, and/or to improve ease of manufacturing which will in the longer term help pricing come down.

 

It wont render the existing Vive obsolete. It might not be the latest model any more, but will still function. If they were to do some bigger update, it would still be possible for them to cut some deal with early adopters, for example, allowing a headset only sale since the rest of the stuff will likely stay the same (or at least be compatible).

[Sky Daddy]

41 minutes ago, porina said:

I'm kinda in that situation, but don't view it so negatively.

 

Product development isn't sequential, in that you don't wait until the product is out of the door before starting the next one. It is pipelined so there was likely work being done on the 2nd version before the 1st shipped. I wouldn't be surprised if they were also looking at what to put in the 3rd one too and planning beyond that.

 

Chances are, with such a short cycle, it wont be a radical difference. Maybe changes to improve user experience like reduced size/weight, and/or to improve ease of manufacturing which will in the longer term help pricing come down.

 

It wont render the existing Vive obsolete. It might not be the latest model any more, but will still function. If they were to do some bigger update, it would still be possible for them to cut some deal with early adopters, for example, allowing a headset only sale since the rest of the stuff will likely stay the same (or at least be compatible).

There are many features that would make me sell my rift for a new headset in a heartbeat

 

Higher FOV,  HDR, better res/refresh rate, eye/face tracking, no god rays, stereo overlap, Galvanic Vestibular Stimulation

 

unfortunately, wireless isn't coming anytime soon

[Nizkus]

1 hour ago, DXMember said:

If I was to pay $800 for a hardware that promisses superior experience that has very little to no content at all and be told that in a couple of weeks a new revision comes,

I'd be really pissed and want my Money back and also be questioning - why didn't they have it in the initial release? - maybe it was a cash grab?

 

to be clear - I'm not against new revisions and better products

I'm against dumb cash grabs releasing half baked products, like the gaming industry tends to do in the recent years

But it's not coming in couple of weeks, it's supposedly coming a year after initial release. I would much rather that people who wait a year get better product with maybe improved ergonomics and lenses or that they could get old one for cheaper from people who feel compelled to upgrade.

 

I knew exactly what I was getting when I bought Vive, if I were to feel it wasn't  enough I would have waited for next version just like with getting GPUs

[porina]

2 hours ago, Sky Daddy said:

There are many features that would make me sell my rift for a new headset in a heartbeat

 

Higher FOV,  HDR, better res/refresh rate, eye/face tracking, no god rays, stereo overlap, Galvanic Vestibular Stimulation

 

unfortunately, wireless isn't coming anytime soon

For sure there are a lot of "wish list" upgrades for future generations, but here we're talking about a possible near term Vive update. I do think that will be a relatively minor refresh than anything that major.

[Sparviero]

The whole point is this is the genesis of a new market. It is pants on head stupid to not want to see significant advances with scale of market, competition and other factors in play. Might as well tell all the CPU, GPU, SoC and tv/monitor panel makers to rest on their laurels for a decade. Advances are bad, mmmkay. 

 

It it was known and stressed that this first iteration of HMDs would come with early adopter taxes just as with many new products. To act outraged over the money spent is asinine. 

[Sakkura]

19 hours ago, DXMember said:

lol so soon for a replacement

didn't even last one console gen

 

still better wait for StarVR

Thinking, let alone hoping, that progress in a brand-new work-in-progress market would be as slow as in the console market is just incomprehensible to me. I bought a 700€ Rift and I would be thrilled if they launched a hugely improved Rift 2 next year. Same if I'd gotten a Vive.

[Nizkus]

1 hour ago, Sakkura said:

Thinking, let alone hoping, that progress in a brand-new work-in-progress market would be as slow as in the console market is just incomprehensible to me. I bought a 700€ Rift and I would be thrilled if they launched a hugely improved Rift 2 next year. Same if I'd gotten a Vive.

It seems to me that people who don't even own neither of devices are most outraged by new Vive coming out so soon, I don't get why though, since they should be the ones most benefiting from it..

[AlTech]

2 minutes ago, Nizkus said:

It seems to me that people who don't even own neither of devices are most offended by new Vive coming out so soon, I don't get why though, since they should be the ones most benefiting from it..

I'm not interested until the price comes down. Like cut the price in half and then i'll think about buying it.

[Nizkus]

6 minutes ago, AluminiumTech said:

I'm not interested until the price comes down. Like cut the price in half and then i'll think about buying it.

I get that, but you probably don't mind there being new versions if that's the case, since it'll inevitably lower prices of older models

[AlTech]

5 minutes ago, Nizkus said:

I get that, but you probably don't mind there being new versions if that's the case, since it'll inevitably lower prices of older models

I would mind IF it raised the hardware requirements and required a GTX 1080 like performance instead of an RX 480 like performance.

[DXMember]

2 hours ago, Sakkura said:

Thinking, let alone hoping, that progress in a brand-new work-in-progress market would be as slow as in the console market is just incomprehensible to me. I bought a 700€ Rift and I would be thrilled if they launched a hugely improved Rift 2 next year. Same if I'd gotten a Vive.

dunno...

HMD isn't a performance part that I would expect to upgrade yearly

it's a peripheral device that is supposed to be as dumb as a mouse, keyboard and display - I've been using my main display for over two years, my secondary monitor was bought in like 2008 or something, I just recently replaced a 10 year old keyboard and my mouse has been in exploitation for like 4 years

 

the fucking rift has been on kickstarter since 2012 and bought by Zuckenberg bringing in billions in development funds, given the situation - if you can't do it right the first time, then I don't think you can ever do it right

arguably Vive has been in an even more favorable situation due to Gaiben and influence "by gamers".

 

Hence the only worthy HMD products IMHO are

OSVR - for being open source, having like a bagillion key partners in both hardware and software as well as academic support

StarVR - for being the fucking best HMD hardware

[Nizkus]

2 minutes ago, DXMember said:

dunno...

HMD isn't a performance part that I would expect to upgrade yearly

it's a peripheral device that is supposed to be as dumb as a mouse, keyboard and display - I've been using my main display for over two years, my secondary monitor was bought in like 2008 or something, I just recently replaced a 10 year old keyboard and my mouse has been in exploitation for like 4 years

You wouldn't need to since old HMDs will support new games (in theory at least) just like monitors, but technology moves forward just like on monitors that have gotten better in last two years.

[DXMember]

Just now, Nizkus said:

You wouldn't need to since old HMDs will support new games (in theory at least) just like monitors, but technology moves forward just like on monitors that have gotten better in last two years.

there has been no game changing tech on displays since LCD

yeah we got higher resolutions that's fine - monitors aren't supposed to make us feel like it's IRL and they're not in the face

 

if the HMD has a retarded tracking system, poor resolution or low FOV - that's a not good enough experience for VR, should be addressed before releasing to market

 

--I updated previous post

[Nizkus]

3 minutes ago, DXMember said:

there has been no game changing tech on displays since LCD

yeah we got higher resolutions that's fine - monitors aren't supposed to make us feel like it's IRL and they're not in the face

 

if the HMD has a retarded tracking system, poor resolution or low FOV - that's a not good enough experience for VR, should be addressed before releasing to market

 

--I updated previous post

Sure who wouldn't have liked to have a better HMD from the get go, but I think they are just good enough, like you would expect from any gen 1 product in a new market segment. 

 

There is a reason Vive, HDK2 and Oculus Rift have same resolution, since it wouldn't make much sense to release a product no one could run like what StarVR seems to be. Anyway there's hardly any reason to buy these headsets if you're not an enthusiast so who cares if they are sub-optimal.

[Sky Daddy]

6 hours ago, porina said:

For sure there are a lot of "wish list" upgrades for future generations, but here we're talking about a possible near term Vive update. I do think that will be a relatively minor refresh than anything that major.

What would classify as a minor revision?

 

I do think there should be a Vive with integrated headphones though.

[Humbug]

10 hours ago, DXMember said:

If I was to pay $800 for a hardware that promisses superior experience that has very little to no content at all and be told that in a couple of weeks a new revision comes,

I'd be really pissed and want my Money back and also be questioning - why didn't they have it in the initial release? - maybe it was a cash grab?

 

to be clear - I'm not against new revisions and better products

I'm against dumb cash grabs releasing half baked products, like the gaming industry tends to do in the recent years

not all of us think like you. I have a Vive. For most of us we know that a new model coming out does not negatively impact our experience. We continue to play games ln our HMD.

I have an R9 290 GPU, I did not get upset when AMD released the fury X or when Nvidia released the 980ti. They may be better but they don't negatively affect me.

 

the fact is HTC has to keep iterating, there will be more competition in the steamVR HMD market in time to come. Also So far Oculus has been unable to release their full product, once they get it out (oculus touch) HTC would probably like to put out a slightly improved version to maintain their lead.