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5 minutes ago, nickl said:

I assume that that solution requires separate boxes for the actual drives and that module simply interfaces between the clients and the drives?

No, this is just a RAID/SAN box attached via network.  Of course each HDD is in its own slot.

 

Sort of like these rack mounted drive bays, but the external look of the case is different than the one in the image.

11957.jpg

 

 

Also, another benefit to OSX: native ProRes codec support.  One of the things about OSX and software in OSX I like is the fact that there's so much optimization and efficiency designed into it that it fully utilizes the potential of the hardware.

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3 minutes ago, ALwin said:

Also, another benefit to OSX: native ProRes codec support.  One of the things about OSX and software in OSX I like is the fact that there's so much optimization and efficiency designed into it that it fully utilizes the potential of the hardware.

So you think that the extra cost is justified, I assume?

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11 minutes ago, nickl said:

So you think that the extra cost is justified, I assume?

Which one are they going to invest in, the 5k iMacs?  With a configuration of 16GB memory and 512GB SSD you are looking at $2500 per machine, without any educational discounts and other accessories added into the mix.

What's the cost compared to the Windows rig that are being considered?

 

 

1 hour ago, nickl said:

In total, we will be getting 6 video editing stations, 1 audio recording system, one audio design system, 1 teacher's computer, and maybe 1 or 2 other computers. We would like to keep them all the same computers so we don't have to deal with 10 different models. Each of the systems would have at least 2 displays (maybe going to 3 or even 4 if they have the capability to project to the rest of the class).

You're considering around 12 machines.  But not all 12 of them have to be the same 5k iMac, some can be the cheaper smaller ones.  Even less if you multipurpose each machine instead of putting in dedicated audio recording and audio editing machines.

 

Of course, the buyer being an educational institution, the school will get an educational discount on the purchase from either Apple or Dell or other Windows machine seller.  If you go Apple, ask if the school can get both the educational and business purchase discount.

 

If the school has money, I would go for the iMac solution. You are already getting a 5K resolution monitor without having to buy one separately.  And all the benefits of OSX (native ProRes codec, less risks of students installing malware by accident or design or even students trying to install unauthorized software because it may not run on OSX, longer and better system stability).

 

And generally speaking, while Apple products may have older hardware (mainly because they don't update several times a year or they take time to test the stability of the hardware combination before releasing a new product), the quality of their hardware tends to be on the upper side.  Obviously you can't set up each editing machine with their own pair of reference monitors if they are all in the same classroom, but you can use headphones to monitor audio for editing and the sound card in Apple's machines are pretty good.

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1 hour ago, nickl said:

While we're on the topic of color and monitors, is A-FRC bad (like in this LG 4K monitor). They say that it supports 10-bit color, but it says in parentheses, 8-bit+A-FRC. Is this not true 10-bit and would it hurt color fidelity?

It's not that bad and 8bit are more than enough for sRGB thus you don't have to waste money on Quadro graphics cards.

 

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1 hour ago, nickl said:

So you think that the extra cost is justified, I assume?

I just wanted to say a few more things before I have to go.  Last day of filming before we fly back home in the evening.

 

Students are not learning how to use the OS, they are learning how to produce audio and video, learning the concepts that are part of the software (Premiere, Audition, After Effects, Logic Pro, perhaps Photoshop and Illustrator to some degree, perhaps software like DaVinci Resolve, etc.). They are going to learn how to take the footage they recorded, in whatever format their camera supports, and turn that into a final product.  Whether they learn in Windows, Linux, or OSX doesn't matter if they can't learn to take the concepts they learned by using, for example, Premiere Pro into working with Final Cut or Media Composer if that's the professional environment they end up finding work.

 

But of course that doesn't mean that the school shouldn't consider what's the best way to expose them to what they will encounter in an actual professional environment, be it they work for someone or they freelance.  And again I am not talking about the OS.  I am referring to the fact that there are so many models of cameras out there, so many various accessories used in the acquisition and production of audio/video media, so many tools used in broadcasting.

 

For example, one of the people I have on the team here is someone who has never used anything else besides a DSLR for recording video.  He had no idea of what is XAVC or Rec.709, S-Log, or even shutter angles when he started with us.  That doesn't mean he is not willing to learn or is not helpful.  We teach him and he assists us in other things like operating a steadicam or holding the boom pole.

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7 hours ago, nickl said:

I assume that a FirePro or a Quadro, Premiere, AE, and the rest of CC, and a 10-bit monitor would work together for 10-bit, right?

 

One note that I should make is that although it will be difficult for the teacher to manage, students are supposed to edit in groups (somehow, don't ask me)... Would having another monitor be good in a scenario like that?

I would say a second monitor is good to display the "video" or to easy display all the files and/or timelines an so on. I have not used Premiere though but in both AE and Sony Vegas I really enjoy to use two monitors over one. 

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3 minutes ago, xQubeZx said:

I would say a second monitor is good to display the "video" or to easy display all the files and/or timelines an so on. I have not used Premiere though but in both AE and Sony Vegas I really enjoy to use two monitors over one. 

As I said earlier, we were going to go with at least 2 monitors no matter what.

So thanks for reading guys, if this post sucked, I'm not sure what you can do, but if you liked it, go 'head and hit that like button, or maybe add me as a friend. Otherwise, go subscribe to LinusTechTips on YouTube, follow them on Twitch, follow @LinusTech on Twitter, and support them by using their affiliate code on Amazon, buying a cool T-shirt, or supporting them directly on this community forum.

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17 hours ago, nickl said:

Hi All,

 

I am helping make decisions about a class at my high school in which we will be making videos and it will basically be a film making class. We have decided to use Premiere Pro for editing (we're buying all of CC for the rest of the software that we probably will need). We also will be using Pro Tools for audio editing as it is the industry standard and we want to train the students for the real world in which they would be working.*

One of our main points of contention is our debate between Windows and Mac. Personally, coming from a Windows background and liking to nerd out about computers and play with technology, I prefer Windows.**

One of the administrators I'm working with thinks that we should go with Mac since it is more common in the industry, and since there has to be some benefit to Mac, otherwise most people in the industry wouldn't be using Mac.

 

My argument is that the savings that we will get from Windows machines could be put to better use being spent on things that more significantly improved the education and experience of the students. I also argue that since we will be using CC software and Pro Tools, the OS underneath won't make much difference as the majority of the student's time will be spent in the software, and not dealing with the OS. I don't foresee any significant differences between software functionality between Mac and Windows.

The administrator's argument is that there has to be a reason for creative professionals to be using Mac, and that possibly there will be better compatibility with a wider range of storage options, or maybe a better user experience. Another concern for using Windows is how much we will lock them down and restrict the access and abilities of the students. Some of the members of the tech dept. are of the mindset of locking it down as much as possible, while we think that it would be better to leave them somewhat open so that the students can have a bit more freedom with how they use the computers.

Most of the people in the tech dept. are more experienced with administering Windows than Mac.

We will be planning to edit at a max of 4K resolution at a bitrate of 100Mbps...

We will be consulting with the teacher of the class regarding their preference, as they will be the ones that will be dealing with it day in and day out.

 

My question(s) are as follows:

  1. Is there a difference between the functionality of Premiere (and the rest of CC) and Pro Tools between Mac and Windows?
  2. Am I correct that the difference in price between a Mac and Windows system would be better put towards better cameras, lighting, or audio equipment, and that improving those would more significantly improve the education of the students?
  3. Would macOS work better with external storage systems or audio/video equipment?
  4. General system recommendations are of course welcome :).
  5. Would Macs last longer than Windows machines and would service be better than a Windows system**?
  6. Would teaching students on Windows disadvantage them in the real world of the film and TV industries?
  7. Why do most of the production houses and "creative professionals" use Macs? Is it just history, prejudices, and marketing, or is there a real difference in functionality and/or user experience?
  8. Any general feedback is of course welcome.

In total, we will be getting 6 video editing stations, 1 audio recording system, one audio design system, 1 teacher's computer, and maybe 1 or 2 other computers. We would like to keep them all the same computers so we don't have to deal with 10 different models. Each of the systems would have at least 2 displays (maybe going to 3 or even 4 if they have the capability to project to the rest of the class). 

I edit professionally and the whole "creative professionals" use macs thing isn't true. It's all biased on preference, if you are using final cut then get a mac. If you are using Adobe then get a PC. Save the money from the cameras and put it into lights and audio where it's actually needed.

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5 hours ago, mama_fluxus said:

I edit professionally and the whole "creative professionals" use macs thing isn't true. It's all biased on preference, if you are using final cut then get a mac. If you are using Adobe then get a PC. Save the money from the cameras and put it into lights and audio where it's actually needed.

Would support of ProRes be an important benefit of Mac? @ALwin

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7 hours ago, nickl said:

Would support of ProRes be an important benefit of Mac? @ALwin

I'm not sure.  What does the course curriculum cover?  I was pointing out ProRes as a potential benefit of OSX.

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3 hours ago, nickl said:

Would support of ProRes be an important benefit of Mac? @ALwin

If your camera only outputs ProRes, yes.

Otherwise there are other intermediate codecs on Windows available

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12 hours ago, .spider. said:

If your camera only outputs ProRes, yes.

I don't think that our cameras will be outputting ProRes, so I don't think it should be a big problem.

Not that our cameras shoot in it, but is DNxHD/DNxHR have similar quality to ProRes?

 

13 hours ago, ALwin said:

I'm not sure.  What does the course curriculum cover?  I was pointing out ProRes as a potential benefit of OSX.

The course I think is going to be some "live" switched "shows" like news or maybe simple interviews, but we also really want the students to get into film-making... I suppose we will let people bring in their own cameras if they have them, but we will also be buying 6 Sony PXW-X70 cameras (they record in XAVC).

So thanks for reading guys, if this post sucked, I'm not sure what you can do, but if you liked it, go 'head and hit that like button, or maybe add me as a friend. Otherwise, go subscribe to LinusTechTips on YouTube, follow them on Twitch, follow @LinusTech on Twitter, and support them by using their affiliate code on Amazon, buying a cool T-shirt, or supporting them directly on this community forum.

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58 minutes ago, nickl said:

I don't think that our cameras will be outputting ProRes, so I don't think it should be a big problem.

Not that our cameras shoot in it, but is DNxHD/DNxHR have similar quality to ProRes?

 

The course I think is going to be some "live" switched "shows" like news or maybe simple interviews, but we also really want the students to get into film-making... I suppose we will let people bring in their own cameras if they have them, but we will also be buying 6 Sony PXW-X70 cameras (they record in XAVC).

The reason why I consider ProRes a "pro" for the OSX side is because you will have difficulty encoding to ProRes in Windows.  OSX supports DNxHD/DNxHR, Windows doesn't fully support PreRes natively.  But if the students never use it, it doesn't matter.

 

Aside from that, as I mentioned a few times before, OSX has a few other benefits over Windows:

  • Apple's equivalent to the Microsoft Office Suite (Word, Powerpoint and Excel) is free with OSX.
  • Students will have more difficulty messing around with OSX and they will have a hard time using the computers for non-school related stuff like games (I know there are OSX supported games, but not as much as Windows).
  • Background malware and antivirus scanners will not use up system resources as much, and of course OSX has a lower risk of getting infected.
  • It's a more stable OS with fewer annoying updates.

But as I also said, the students are not learning how to use an OS, they are learning how to use other software and hardware tools related to video production.

 

When I say course curriculum, I want to know what are the specific things it will teach the students:

  • writing screen plays?
  • creating story boards?
  • what sort of editing?
  • visual effects, motion graphics, 3D animation?
  • color grading?
  • aside from Adobe CC and Pro Tools (though do you really need it, when Audition can also be used to teach), what other software?
  • live chroma keying? post- production chroma keying?
  • location sound recording, foley, automatic dialogue replacement, sound effects?
  • mixing audio?
  • microphone techniques?
  • camera techniques?
  • lighting techniques?
  • makeup artistry?

By the way, while the PXW X70s are good cameras, I also recommend diversifying instead of buying six identical cameras.  Perhaps one camera model can have a built-in ND filter and zoom/focus/iris control rings on the lens and another camera can be a more cinematic camera, such as an Ursa Mini or Black Magic "something" cinema camera, or even a first gen Canon C100 or even a handheld consumer camcorder.  If the course is going to teach students color grading, having different cameras can be useful as they can be used to show students the differences in each camera manufacturer's color science and how to color match footage from different cameras.

 

Also, I am not sure if you really should invest in a dual monitor setup for every workstation.  Sure dual monitor setups are very productive, I don't know if it's really essential in an educational environment.  The school is not "profiting" from these machines because they are used in an actual production environment.

 

Another thing I want to say, how is the course structured and what school level is this being taught at?  High-school, college, university level?  Are there going to be different levels of the course so that Level I is introductory, Level II is more advanced, etc.?

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Am I too late?  Haha, it's like Wednesday and the last real post was Saturday?

 

Anyway, I think Windows can be customized much more in terms of hardware, and prices are generally cheaper.  Plus, you can potentially save money in the future if you upgrade parts of the PCs bit by bit.  I am confident that if your school is willing to drop over $10,000 on cameras and equipment (by my math, 6  PXW-X7s is already over that), then I am sure it's a large enough school for you guys to find some "nerds" who will be perfectly willing to build you the computers themselves.  As long as the administrators trust them with making the computers, that is.

 

 

PS: @ALwin Hey, I remember you :)

Need help deciding on building computer?  Message me, I can help decide on parts.  

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Just now, bobdabiulder said:

find some "nerds" who will be perfectly willing to build you the computers themselves.  As long as the administrators trust them with making the computers, that is.

I would advice against this.  While it may be cheaper, buying pre-built machines from a larger company saves a lot of headaches on the long run.

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True, true.  Pre-built also guarantees support from the OEM and warranties on the whole machine.  

Need help deciding on building computer?  Message me, I can help decide on parts.  

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3 minutes ago, bobdabiulder said:

True, true.  Pre-built also guarantees support from the OEM and warranties on the whole machine.  

I have nothing against custom builds, but they are better suited for individuals or groups that have people who are very much invested into maintaining such setups.

 

Plus, educational institutions get discounts from those larger companies.

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I agree your points, despite originally suggesting otherwise.  I still support my idea of custom building them, but the OP must be aware of the points you bring up if they do decide to custom build.  Because a high school or college course won't have the people who built the machines there for too long, so assuming they stil have the computers after 4+ years, they might not be as easy to fix then.

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26 minutes ago, bobdabiulder said:

I agree your points, despite originally suggesting otherwise.  I still support my idea of custom building them, but the OP must be aware of the points you bring up if they do decide to custom build.  Because a high school or college course won't have the people who built the machines there for too long, so assuming they stil have the computers after 4+ years, they might not be as easy to fix then.

I have in passing talked about building our own with the administrators at our school, and although I totally agree that we could get better deals, and we probably would get a lower price/performance ratio, we would not get any support and if anything broke, it would be completely our responsibility. In an enterprise situation like this we need warranties and we need reliability.

 

We were looking at getting about at 50% discount on 24 1440p, UltraSharp, PremierColor, 27" Dell Monitors, and having 10-12 Dell Workstations in the mix could only sweeten the deal.

 

Edit 1: We also want continutiy between the machines. We don't want 1 ancient Dell along with a few unreliable gaming rigs with some crappy HP ProDesk's thrown in the mix. In the last incarnation of this class we had the teacher doing their own thing with the computers, and the Mac Pro towers that he had were all over the map in age and performance. Its no fun. We will buy and refresh them all simultaneously.

So thanks for reading guys, if this post sucked, I'm not sure what you can do, but if you liked it, go 'head and hit that like button, or maybe add me as a friend. Otherwise, go subscribe to LinusTechTips on YouTube, follow them on Twitch, follow @LinusTech on Twitter, and support them by using their affiliate code on Amazon, buying a cool T-shirt, or supporting them directly on this community forum.

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