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TheAudiophile

Anyone who dismisses a better DAC as non-essential is incorrect.

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Sure, Dackzy, we can include everyone in the world and call it 99%.

 

Except that we're a small group of audio hobbyists who care about sound. You're limiting other newer hobbyists from better sound by spreading an opinion like that.


PC: Intel i5-4690K @ 4.6 GHz, 1.296v, Air 24/7 -- Windforce R9 270 @ 1200/1400 -- MSI Z87-GD65 -- 16GB DDR3-1866 -- Samsung 850 Evo 250GB

Audio: Thiel CS1.2 Speakers -- Tripath Amps -- CS4398 DACs -- MiniDIGI 2x8 Active Crossover/DSP --  Stereo Bass via 2x Vifa 10", Linkwitz Transform'd to 25hz -3db

 

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Nice one.

 

Please keep to only adding useful posts to the conversation though. I can't stop you, but there's no need to post your emotions here.


PC: Intel i5-4690K @ 4.6 GHz, 1.296v, Air 24/7 -- Windforce R9 270 @ 1200/1400 -- MSI Z87-GD65 -- 16GB DDR3-1866 -- Samsung 850 Evo 250GB

Audio: Thiel CS1.2 Speakers -- Tripath Amps -- CS4398 DACs -- MiniDIGI 2x8 Active Crossover/DSP --  Stereo Bass via 2x Vifa 10", Linkwitz Transform'd to 25hz -3db

 

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12 minutes ago, TheAudiophile said:

Sure, Dackzy, we can include everyone in the world and call it 99%.

 

Except that we're a small group of audio hobbyists who care about sound. You're limiting other newer hobbyists from better sound by spreading an opinion like that.

No I am not. I have done about 4 blind tests with other audiophiles where they used my onboard vs dacs that went up to $1k and nobody could tell the difference at all. 
I am really just saving them money and nobody should ever just jump into something and get really high end things, that is just stupid since without any experiance they will most likely get disappointed. I know people who has headphones that cost over $3k and they use their onboard dac, because it is transparrent unlike soundblaster shit.


Before you buy amp and dac.  My thoughts on the M50x  Ultimate Ears Reference monitor review I might have a thing for audio...

My main Headphones and IEMs:  K612 pro, HD 25 and Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor, HD 580 with HD 600 grills

DAC and AMP: RME ADI 2 DAC

Speakers: Genelec 8040, System Audio SA205

Receiver: Denon AVR-1612

Desktop: R7 1700, GTX 1080  RX 580 8GB and other stuff

Laptop: ThinkPad P50: i7 6820HQ, M2000M. ThinkPad T420s: i7 2640M, NVS 4200M

Feel free to pm me if you have a question for me or quote me. If you want to hear what I have to say about something just tag me.

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Why are you under the impression that I'm suggesting something expensive?


PC: Intel i5-4690K @ 4.6 GHz, 1.296v, Air 24/7 -- Windforce R9 270 @ 1200/1400 -- MSI Z87-GD65 -- 16GB DDR3-1866 -- Samsung 850 Evo 250GB

Audio: Thiel CS1.2 Speakers -- Tripath Amps -- CS4398 DACs -- MiniDIGI 2x8 Active Crossover/DSP --  Stereo Bass via 2x Vifa 10", Linkwitz Transform'd to 25hz -3db

 

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1 minute ago, TheAudiophile said:

Why are you under the impression that I'm suggesting something expensive?

I am not, but it is still a waste of money and I bet that since you don't have a amp hooked up to it the headphones cannot get all the power they need and therefore they will get more low end.


Before you buy amp and dac.  My thoughts on the M50x  Ultimate Ears Reference monitor review I might have a thing for audio...

My main Headphones and IEMs:  K612 pro, HD 25 and Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor, HD 580 with HD 600 grills

DAC and AMP: RME ADI 2 DAC

Speakers: Genelec 8040, System Audio SA205

Receiver: Denon AVR-1612

Desktop: R7 1700, GTX 1080  RX 580 8GB and other stuff

Laptop: ThinkPad P50: i7 6820HQ, M2000M. ThinkPad T420s: i7 2640M, NVS 4200M

Feel free to pm me if you have a question for me or quote me. If you want to hear what I have to say about something just tag me.

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Posted · Original PosterOP

I don't use headphones primarily, I have a carefully assembled speaker system as a main.

 

How much power headphones need is determined by having enough voltage to drive them and a low enough output impedance to give them the required current. 2.1 volts is plenty and an output impedance of 0.3ohm when the headphones are around 50ohms gives a damping factor of ~166. There is no "bass boost" here.

 

You guys need to know that amplifiers are sometimes not essential depending upon your source output stage and headphone type.


PC: Intel i5-4690K @ 4.6 GHz, 1.296v, Air 24/7 -- Windforce R9 270 @ 1200/1400 -- MSI Z87-GD65 -- 16GB DDR3-1866 -- Samsung 850 Evo 250GB

Audio: Thiel CS1.2 Speakers -- Tripath Amps -- CS4398 DACs -- MiniDIGI 2x8 Active Crossover/DSP --  Stereo Bass via 2x Vifa 10", Linkwitz Transform'd to 25hz -3db

 

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@SSL I give up, I don't want to waste more time.


Before you buy amp and dac.  My thoughts on the M50x  Ultimate Ears Reference monitor review I might have a thing for audio...

My main Headphones and IEMs:  K612 pro, HD 25 and Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor, HD 580 with HD 600 grills

DAC and AMP: RME ADI 2 DAC

Speakers: Genelec 8040, System Audio SA205

Receiver: Denon AVR-1612

Desktop: R7 1700, GTX 1080  RX 580 8GB and other stuff

Laptop: ThinkPad P50: i7 6820HQ, M2000M. ThinkPad T420s: i7 2640M, NVS 4200M

Feel free to pm me if you have a question for me or quote me. If you want to hear what I have to say about something just tag me.

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Posted · Original PosterOP

If you have no more points to bring up, I understand. Hard to argue with an argument that makes sense. I know its not easy to experience an interloper coming in and challenging your views. I get it.


PC: Intel i5-4690K @ 4.6 GHz, 1.296v, Air 24/7 -- Windforce R9 270 @ 1200/1400 -- MSI Z87-GD65 -- 16GB DDR3-1866 -- Samsung 850 Evo 250GB

Audio: Thiel CS1.2 Speakers -- Tripath Amps -- CS4398 DACs -- MiniDIGI 2x8 Active Crossover/DSP --  Stereo Bass via 2x Vifa 10", Linkwitz Transform'd to 25hz -3db

 

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2 minutes ago, TheAudiophile said:

If you have no more points to bring up, I understand. Hard to argue with an argument that makes sense. I know its not easy to experience an interloper coming in and challenging your views. I get it.

Nope it's not that, I just don't want to waste time, when I know that I am right.


Before you buy amp and dac.  My thoughts on the M50x  Ultimate Ears Reference monitor review I might have a thing for audio...

My main Headphones and IEMs:  K612 pro, HD 25 and Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor, HD 580 with HD 600 grills

DAC and AMP: RME ADI 2 DAC

Speakers: Genelec 8040, System Audio SA205

Receiver: Denon AVR-1612

Desktop: R7 1700, GTX 1080  RX 580 8GB and other stuff

Laptop: ThinkPad P50: i7 6820HQ, M2000M. ThinkPad T420s: i7 2640M, NVS 4200M

Feel free to pm me if you have a question for me or quote me. If you want to hear what I have to say about something just tag me.

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Your version of "right" is a DAC is too expensive and doesn't make much difference. If you want to keep that narrative and think you're right, feel free. Just please don't limit other audiophiles by spreading that misinformation.


PC: Intel i5-4690K @ 4.6 GHz, 1.296v, Air 24/7 -- Windforce R9 270 @ 1200/1400 -- MSI Z87-GD65 -- 16GB DDR3-1866 -- Samsung 850 Evo 250GB

Audio: Thiel CS1.2 Speakers -- Tripath Amps -- CS4398 DACs -- MiniDIGI 2x8 Active Crossover/DSP --  Stereo Bass via 2x Vifa 10", Linkwitz Transform'd to 25hz -3db

 

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9 minutes ago, TheAudiophile said:

If you have no more points to bring up, I understand. Hard to argue with an argument that makes sense. I know its not easy to experience an interloper coming in and challenging your views. I get it.

 

We're done because this is going in circles. Your entire "argument" hinges on the fact that you built a DAC (with op-amp output stage) and subjectively think it sounds good. Which would be a great thing to share, except that you've gone and extended your experience to proclaim that a better DAC is "essential".

 

This does nothing to refute our overall point that a DAC upgrade is pointless for most people. At best, your message here is completely inappropriate to the audience of this sub and the forum as a whole.

 

Your conduct has made it increasingly clear that you have the typical superior, know-something-others-don't audiophile attitude. That kind of attitude does not fly around here.

 

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Posted · Original PosterOP

The stock op-amp output stage is not what I use, just to be clear. To keep the price down, one can use that if they wish.

 

And how else does information spread? Someone discovers something others may not know and tells others.


PC: Intel i5-4690K @ 4.6 GHz, 1.296v, Air 24/7 -- Windforce R9 270 @ 1200/1400 -- MSI Z87-GD65 -- 16GB DDR3-1866 -- Samsung 850 Evo 250GB

Audio: Thiel CS1.2 Speakers -- Tripath Amps -- CS4398 DACs -- MiniDIGI 2x8 Active Crossover/DSP --  Stereo Bass via 2x Vifa 10", Linkwitz Transform'd to 25hz -3db

 

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16 minutes ago, TheAudiophile said:

The stock op-amp output stage is not what I use, just to be clear. To keep the price down, one can use that if they wish.

 

And how else does information spread? Someone discovers something others may not know and tells others.

Yes, you can tell others that you find it good.

But you are saying it is essential and very important.

You might subjectively find it good. That means nothing.

Let me ask you this, objectivly, in what ways does the dac improve the sound from onboard?


n0ah1897, on 05 Mar 2014 - 2:08 PM, said:  "Computers are like girls. It's whats in the inside that matters.  I don't know about you, but I like my girls like I like my cases. Just as beautiful on the inside as the outside."

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Posted · Original PosterOP

By getting as much as possible out of the signal path and stripping it down to the bare essentials using only high-quality components, I find that there is much more actual "sound information" coming through.

 

I don't mean "detail" like the treble or midrange is increased. In fact, there is no frequency response bump anywhere. The best way I can explain it is as if there is a magnifying glass on the sound itself, allowing one to hear further into the music, revealing new bits of sound information that was not audible with an inferior DAC. Things like texture of strings, auxilary noises on the piano, a more complete image of a snare drum hit, you're able to hear the recording environment more clearly, etc. Of course, the better the recording, the more new sound is revealed.


PC: Intel i5-4690K @ 4.6 GHz, 1.296v, Air 24/7 -- Windforce R9 270 @ 1200/1400 -- MSI Z87-GD65 -- 16GB DDR3-1866 -- Samsung 850 Evo 250GB

Audio: Thiel CS1.2 Speakers -- Tripath Amps -- CS4398 DACs -- MiniDIGI 2x8 Active Crossover/DSP --  Stereo Bass via 2x Vifa 10", Linkwitz Transform'd to 25hz -3db

 

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1 hour ago, TheAudiophile said:

By getting as much as possible out of the signal path and stripping it down to the bare essentials using only high-quality components, I find that there is much more actual "sound information" coming through.

 

I don't mean "detail" like the treble or midrange is increased. In fact, there is no frequency response bump anywhere. The best way I can explain it is as if there is a magnifying glass on the sound itself, allowing one to hear further into the music, revealing new bits of sound information that was not audible with an inferior DAC. Things like texture of strings, auxilary noises on the piano, a more complete image of a snare drum hit, you're able to hear the recording environment more clearly, etc. Of course, the better the recording, the more new sound is revealed.

This seems hard to grasp, as it doesnt really mean anything. Im not dissagreeing, im just skeptical, as I have not seen any meaningful information to show you are correct.


n0ah1897, on 05 Mar 2014 - 2:08 PM, said:  "Computers are like girls. It's whats in the inside that matters.  I don't know about you, but I like my girls like I like my cases. Just as beautiful on the inside as the outside."

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Link it and I will make it when I am not fixing laptops or have a lot of home work. If it's okay I will use it wil my laptop. IF it is meh/bad I will well just put it in a draw and forget about it


Before you buy amp and dac.  My thoughts on the M50x  Ultimate Ears Reference monitor review I might have a thing for audio...

My main Headphones and IEMs:  K612 pro, HD 25 and Ultimate Ears Reference Monitor, HD 580 with HD 600 grills

DAC and AMP: RME ADI 2 DAC

Speakers: Genelec 8040, System Audio SA205

Receiver: Denon AVR-1612

Desktop: R7 1700, GTX 1080  RX 580 8GB and other stuff

Laptop: ThinkPad P50: i7 6820HQ, M2000M. ThinkPad T420s: i7 2640M, NVS 4200M

Feel free to pm me if you have a question for me or quote me. If you want to hear what I have to say about something just tag me.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
49 minutes ago, spwath said:

This seems hard to grasp, as it doesnt really mean anything. Im not dissagreeing, im just skeptical, as I have not seen any meaningful information to show you are correct.

Have you never gotten a new and better audio component and experienced hearing things you've never heard before?

 

45 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

Link it and I will make it when I am not fixing laptops or have a lot of home work. If it's okay I will use it wil my laptop. IF it is meh/bad I will well just put it in a draw and forget about it

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xcs4398+kit.TRS0&_nkw=cs4398+kit&_sacat=0

 

Any of those will work. I would suggest replacing the main power capacitors with Nichicon MUSE KZ, the other electrolytics with Sanyo OS-CON, the film caps with WIMA MKP4 and the resistors with VIshay/Dale CMF55. If you want to try the transformer passive output stage, use 2 Jensen JT-11-YMPC. They have cores with 80% Nickel-alloy which are extremely permeable.

 

Also, try to use only the SPDIF input if you can, the USB input is only okay.


PC: Intel i5-4690K @ 4.6 GHz, 1.296v, Air 24/7 -- Windforce R9 270 @ 1200/1400 -- MSI Z87-GD65 -- 16GB DDR3-1866 -- Samsung 850 Evo 250GB

Audio: Thiel CS1.2 Speakers -- Tripath Amps -- CS4398 DACs -- MiniDIGI 2x8 Active Crossover/DSP --  Stereo Bass via 2x Vifa 10", Linkwitz Transform'd to 25hz -3db

 

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1 minute ago, TheAudiophile said:

Have you never gotten a new and better audio component and experienced hearing things you've never heard before?

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xcs4398+kit.TRS0&_nkw=cs4398+kit&_sacat=0

 

Any of those will work. I would suggest replacing the main power capacitors with Nichicon MUSE KZ, the other electrolytics with Sanyo OS-CON, the film caps with WIMA MKP4 and the resistors with VIshay/Dale CMF55. If you want to try the transformer passive output stage, use 2 Jensen JT-11-YMPC. They have cores with 80% Nickel-alloy which are extremely permeable.

Sure, but there is mesurable explination for that on an FR graph


n0ah1897, on 05 Mar 2014 - 2:08 PM, said:  "Computers are like girls. It's whats in the inside that matters.  I don't know about you, but I like my girls like I like my cases. Just as beautiful on the inside as the outside."

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Posted · Original PosterOP

I'm all about specs and empirical data, but I don't think anyone knows how to measure what we're talking about directly. It's probably a result of a lot of things combined like THD, IMD, SNR and Dynamic range combined. If you're curious about those specs, you can always google for the CS4398 datasheet.


PC: Intel i5-4690K @ 4.6 GHz, 1.296v, Air 24/7 -- Windforce R9 270 @ 1200/1400 -- MSI Z87-GD65 -- 16GB DDR3-1866 -- Samsung 850 Evo 250GB

Audio: Thiel CS1.2 Speakers -- Tripath Amps -- CS4398 DACs -- MiniDIGI 2x8 Active Crossover/DSP --  Stereo Bass via 2x Vifa 10", Linkwitz Transform'd to 25hz -3db

 

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1 minute ago, TheAudiophile said:

Have you never gotten a new and better audio component and experienced hearing things you've never heard before?

 

Nope.

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Hi SSL, thanks for that great post. Also, yes you have unless you didn't like any of the things you've purchased.

 

Honestly it's probably best for your psychological health if you just unfollow this thread and ignore it. Just trying to help you out.


PC: Intel i5-4690K @ 4.6 GHz, 1.296v, Air 24/7 -- Windforce R9 270 @ 1200/1400 -- MSI Z87-GD65 -- 16GB DDR3-1866 -- Samsung 850 Evo 250GB

Audio: Thiel CS1.2 Speakers -- Tripath Amps -- CS4398 DACs -- MiniDIGI 2x8 Active Crossover/DSP --  Stereo Bass via 2x Vifa 10", Linkwitz Transform'd to 25hz -3db

 

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1 minute ago, TheAudiophile said:

Hi SSL, thanks for that great post. Also, yes you have unless you didn't like any of the things you've purchased.

 

Nope. I'm not sure why you're presuming to know what I've heard, as there's no way for you to know exactly what that is.

 

I've heard things differently, even drastically so, but I've never heard things that "weren't there with inferior gear". Auxiliary piano noises, reverb, decay, whatever.

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Ah, now there's an actual post.

 

We may be talking about very similar things using different words. Whenever I upgrade a component, I choose to either stick with it or sell it based upon if I can hear "further into the music" or "more sound information" and make sure frequency response has stayed flat. Describe what yardstick for you has to be "drastically different" for you to keep a component?


PC: Intel i5-4690K @ 4.6 GHz, 1.296v, Air 24/7 -- Windforce R9 270 @ 1200/1400 -- MSI Z87-GD65 -- 16GB DDR3-1866 -- Samsung 850 Evo 250GB

Audio: Thiel CS1.2 Speakers -- Tripath Amps -- CS4398 DACs -- MiniDIGI 2x8 Active Crossover/DSP --  Stereo Bass via 2x Vifa 10", Linkwitz Transform'd to 25hz -3db

 

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5 hours ago, TheAudiophile said:

Please excuse the inflammatory title, but there seems to be a lot of you on here. I think a lot of this attitude stems from ignorance of what exactly is implemented along the signal path of the audio devices you buy.

 

DACs may sound similar to you because the output stage of a lot of DACs are extremely similar. Most consist of too many op-amp stages and extremely cheap passive components. Different types and grades of DAC chips themselves definitely sound better or worse than another. Here's what's important -- Know your DAC chip, the receiver chip, and how your output stage and power supply are configured. A cheaply implemented output stage will kill the sound of a great DAC chip, making it sound as generic as any other.

 

Most of you with the attitude of "DACs don't make much difference" have only bought and tried the most common commercial implementations, or haven't done much experimenting with DACs on your own and are just parroting the latter group.

 

Too expensive, you say? The best DAC I have ever used is from an eBay kit that cost me $35 shipped plus another $80 in quality passives and 2 output transformers. It's not even a complicated setup, it's just a regular voltage-out DAC with transformers directly on the balanced outputs and it's a world-beater. Great DACs are out there and they don't cost a lot of money.

 

The DAC is where your analog signal starts, guys. There's no better place to start for good sound and it definitely matters a lot. It doesn't have to be expensive if you know what you want in your signal path. A well-implemented DAC setup makes a big difference and don't let anyone tell you any different. When I changed from an X-Fi to the standalone DAC that I built, it changed my view on audio forever. That DAC change was what me pursue audiophile grade stuff to listen to music with.

 

Do some research, there are many others who have treaded here and lots to read on the subject, and then build yourself some better sound with a good DAC. It matters.

seems like your trying to force your opinion on people hear many people don't use a dac especially with a gaming rig because who the hell can tell a difference when listing through a  pair of hyper x cloud 2's or razer krakens there hardly high end drivers and build like a pair of beats so that your explosions have more boom (and that dubstep can wub wub wub) i have a pair of rocket 5's on my editing rig for payback yes a DAC and Amp are probably necessary here i think you should consider the use case honestly if your headphones or speakers cost less than like £70 there probably not worth putting though a DAC and consider what the headphones or speakers where made for gaming, editing video/mixing sound/monitoring audio, broadcast, listening to music all require different types of driver with different frequency response and while some require audio to be crystal clear such as audio monitoring other do not and audio quality loss is acceptable 


I lurk a lot

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