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The Hate on Seagate...

I will just quote myself from a previous thread.

On 2/1/2016 at 9:54 PM, LAwLz said:

On 1/31/2016 at 0:12 AM, Notional said:

Seagate simply just make shitty drives. At least on the consumer side. I still don't see the issue with Backblaze. The WD drives are also consumer drives, and they don't crap out as much.

Either way, seems like 3TB drives in general has issues on all manufacturers. I wonder why that is? New data density on the platters or?

My WD black 2 TB just died, and I can't be arsed to get a new mechanical, so Samsung 850 500GB for me. I'd rather have less capacity than noisy crappy drives.

I would really appreciate it if your could stop spewing your unfounded hatred for Seagate on here. You are just making people more dumb.

Here are some actual, scientific, non-biased numbers for what consumers can expect in terms of reliability from different hard drive manufacturers:

On 1/12/2016 at 9:13 PM, LAwLz said:

Last year Seagate had the lowest failure rates of any HDD manufacturer. These are the % of drives RMA'd within a year after purchase:

Seagate - 0.68%

Western Digital - 1.09%

HGST - 1.16%

Toshiba - 1.34%

 

 

The top most unreliable hard drives, and their RMA rates were:

WD Red WD60EFRX - 4,58%

Toshiba 3 To DT01ACA300 - 3,40%

WD Green 4 To WD40EZRX - 2,93%

WD SE 3 To WD3000F9YZ - 2,78%

Hitachi Ultrastar A7K2000 - 2,14%

Seagate drives are some of the most reliable ones you can buy, but only if you buy their consumer drives and use them for consumer-tier workloads. If you buy consumer-tier drives and run them 24/7 in huge server racks with lots of vibrations, heat and under constant load then yes, they will be unreliable (at least their 3TB ones). If you however buy any of their drives, put them in your desktop or home NAS then they will be not just "fine", but actually more reliable than drives from for example Western Digital, on average. Anyone who claims that consumers should not buy Seagate drives because they are unreliable is ignorant (in your case, willfully ignorant).

 

 

By the way, Backblaze's failure report also shows that for example the WD Red 3TB has around 8% failure rate. I mean come on... You'd have to be a complete moron to use that as a guideline on how reliable the WD Red is, right?

I do think threads like these are kind of funny though. It makes it very apparent which people just parrot things they have heard other people say, and which people actually do their own bit of research and draw their own conclusions based on the evidence they gather.

 

The TL;DR is this - People who say Seagate drives are bad fall into one of three categories:

1) People who just parrot what they have heard other people say, without actually having any understanding of the subject and can't be bothered to check facts.

2) People with no understanding of how to do/interpret scientific tests and statistics.

3) Fanboys

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1 hour ago, Prysin said:

A Titan Z is worse then a Titan X... seriously, its 2x 780Tis with lower clocks and rampant thermal throttling. A 1080 is most certainly actually 3x a TitanZ

A Titan Z is more accurately described as being two slightly underclocked Titan Blacks as the card supports proper FP64 computing, while the 780 Ti doesn't. 

"It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out." - Carl Sagan.

"I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you" - Edward I. Koch

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It all depends on personal experience really...
My last seagate drive was a massive piece of garbage, barely hitting 30MB/s in both read and write after a few months when my WD drives that I bought a year prior getting the seagate drive, were easily doing 120+MB/s still... Seatools would always report it as perfectly healthy so I couldn't even RMA it... then it just decided to die two months after the warranty expired, obviously, without any warning. At least with my WD drives, when they are about to fail, I generally get a S.M.A.R.T. warning.

 

Just that experience resulted in me thinking about it twice before getting a Seagate drive again. And I haven't either. 

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17 hours ago, thatguyyouknow75 said:

What about Toshiba and Hitachi? I've personally never used Seagate drives so I dont have a strong opinion. But the drives Linus used were server designed drives, consumer grade drives typically aren't as hardy

Toshiba drives are shit, from what i'd experienced. But it was only a Toshiba 2.5 5400PRM drive, haven't tried a 3.5 drive yet. I'd got 10MB/s read speeds on that 2.5 Toshiba drive...

Seagate, WD, Hitachi were fine, i'd never had any problems with them.

I have a 4TB Seagate 3.5 HDD that's working fine......along with a 2 year old WD Blue that's working flawlessly.

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1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

I will just quote myself from a previous thread.

 

 

 

The TL;DR is this - People who say Seagate drives are bad fall into one of three categories:

1) People who just parrot what they have heard other people say, without actually having any understanding of the subject and can't be bothered to check facts.

2) People with no understanding of how to do/interpret scientific tests and statistics.

3) Fanboys

Unless you had many drives that failed on you....

I'd never had any Hard Drives failing, but most HDDs i had were losing performance from Read/Write over time(it's a given that it happens).

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1 hour ago, Godlygamer23 said:

A Titan Z is more accurately described as being two slightly underclocked Titan Blacks as the card supports proper FP64 computing, while the 780 Ti doesn't. 

Agreed

They are cards designed where performance/area is more important than performance/$

Thats that. If you need to get in touch chances are you can find someone that knows me that can get in touch.

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7 hours ago, Fooshi said:

This excuse infuriates me more than SWJs.

 

Putting them in data centres simply means more stress, which will achieve faster results. We're getting an insight in which brands and which of their drives are the most reliable. The amount of failed drives isn't important.

No it does not. Not at all..putting them in a data center does NOT just "achieve faster results" because it is completely different from the type of stress it will get in consumer scenarios. 

 

It's like saying driving off road is just a fast way to simulate the wear and tear of driving on a perfect asphalt road. It's not. A car with very low height will get completely trashed by driving off road even though it might be the most reliable car on asphalt, and vice versa.

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7 hours ago, Fooshi said:

This excuse infuriates me more than SWJs.

 

Putting them in data centres simply means more stress, which will achieve faster results. We're getting an insight in which brands and which of their drives are the most reliable. The amount of failed drives isn't important.

Taking a consumer grade HDD and putting it in a Data center where it's constantly being written on is not a way to achieve faster results. It's just a faster way to kill a drive. Consumer drives are not made to be written on constantly. You could take a Seagate and WD Blue, put them both in a data center and see which one dies first but that's not ging to give you the same result as putting them in a normal desktop at home. The Seagate could lose in the Data center scenario but could kick the WD drives ass in an at home desktop scenario. Taking the time to do actualy real world test is the way you get accurate results. Backblazes ways are ignorant and foolish. 

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I got a 2 TB seagate drive in my system running 24/7 for 5 years now running a server never failed on me so far.

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On 5/21/2016 at 3:09 AM, TheGamingBarrel said:

Almost all hard drives are insanely well made (apart from the toshiba deskstar "Deathstar")  To the point where you are looking at performance or price.

No the Deathstar was a great drive. I got one from an old SGI server that ran 24/7 and it still is running today. It runs way too hot but still runs and fast. At 7200RPM back in its day that was extreme

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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I've had a 2tb barracuda that has yet to die

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10 minutes ago, Fooshi said:

The drives are still consumer grade drives. 

 

If the off-road analogy uses regular road cars, they are still at an even playing field. 

Dude... Are you serious? Do you not understand that you can not test on road reliability by driving cars off road? It's the same thing here. You can't test for an average use case scenario by putting a bunch of drives in an environment they were not designed for.

It's like testing a GPU for "reliability" by seeing which one can survive under water the longest. The GTX 980 might survive under water longer than the 390X, but does that mean the 980 is "more reliable"? The playing field is even, but the rest is irrelevant for what consumers will actually use the cards for.

 

What I posted earlier were statistics for actual RMAs from actual customers. It shows that Seagate drives gets returned to the store less frequently than competing brands, but all of them are very close.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, SamStrecker said:

No the Deathstar was a great drive. I got one from an old SGI server that ran 24/7 and it still is running today. It runs way too hot but still runs and fast. At 7200RPM back in its day that was extreme

There was one generation of "Deathstar" drives that were terrible. It was back when IBM were still making them. Can't remember the exact model number but it was a really long time ago (it was like 50GB). IBM actually got sued and lost.

 

It is just another example of what we can see in my post above (and what @Oshino Shinobu said). There are no bad HDD manufacturers. There are however some particularly bad drives, and pretty much all manufacturers have had at least one bad drive. Seagate had the 7200.11 which was very bad. But that was 8 years ago...

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29 minutes ago, Fooshi said:

 

 

The drives are still consumer grade drives. 

 

If the off-road analogy uses regular road cars, they are still at an even playing field. 

The issue is not so much them being consumer drives, but more them being ripped from places like external drives, used drives and old drives. They go for the cheapest they can get, an awful lot of which happens to be Seagate drives. There are fewer WD and Hitachi drives used, simply because they don't have options that beat the Seagate drives in terms of price. 

Also, as @LAwLz pointed out, them being consumer drives does not put them on a level playing field. True, they may be designed for the same operation and environments, but how well they hold up in non-intended environments is not a representation of how they perform in their intended environments and therefore not a representation of their reliability. Even if the conditions were the intended use case, it is still not reliable, given the horrific testing methodology and lack of detailed documentation on BackBlaze's part. For example, grouping hundreds of 2TB Seagate drives together is completely useless information if they're from various ages, condition, models and so on. 

 

EDIT: Going back to the car analogy you used; them grouping drives together from such different circumstances is like grouping hundreds of the same model of car, but some have 120K+ miles on them, others have engine faults, some are poorly maintained. Then running all the cars through a test, then saying that there was a 20% failure rate when doing the test, so therefore that model of car is unreliable. It's completely useless and inaccurate data. 

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21 hours ago, Fooshi said:

This excuse infuriates me more than SWJs.

 

Putting them in data centres simply means more stress, which will achieve faster results. We're getting an insight in which brands and which of their drives are the most reliable. The amount of failed drives isn't important.

It's not simply using the drive more, Datacentres put extra stress on the drive in the form of vibrations, heat, extended periods of use, consistent read/writes and other situations the drives are not designed for (vibrations especially can kill drives quickly). There's also the issue of the lack of information on the revision of they mounting racks used (they have multiple revisions, some with vibration dampening, others without) with which drives, the proximity of which drives, the distribution of drives (if all WD drives are in their newer racks, then the results are instantly useless, or at least more so than they already are). 

 

They don't even specify which models of drives are used, or separate them. They just group everything by brand and capacity. Pretty much every aspect of their results and testing invalidates the results. 

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On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 4:07 PM, Pandalf said:

The hate on Seagate is extremely exaggerated.

In their current lineup they have only one product that has a higher failure rate than their competitors - the 3TB Barracuda.

In the past they had firmware problems with the 7200.11 series and that's mostly what gave them a bad name. There's no reason Seagate drives to be avoided right now, unless you are going for a 3 TB model. They are just as reliable as any other manufacturer on the market.

What's wrong with their 3TB model?

Judge a product on its own merits AND the company that made it.

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On 5/21/2016 at 3:10 AM, aisle9 said:

I know Seagate caught some crap, but I haven't seen nearly the WD/Seagate division that you get with AMD/Intel or AMD/Nvidia, and thank God for that.

What's wrong with putting an AMD GPU in an Intel build or an Nvidia GPU in an AMD build?

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34 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Dude... Are you serious? Do you not understand that you can not test on road reliability by driving cars off road? It's the same thing here. You can't test for an average use case scenario by putting a bunch of drives in an environment they were not designed for.

It's like testing a GPU for "reliability" by seeing which one can survive under water the longest. The GTX 980 might survive under water longer than the 390X, but does that mean the 980 is "more reliable"? The playing field is even, but the rest is irrelevant for what consumers will actually use the cards for.

 

What I posted earlier were statistics for actual RMAs from actual customers. It shows that Seagate drives gets returned to the store less frequently than competing brands, but all of them are very close.

 

 

 

There was one generation of "Deathstar" drives that were terrible. It was back when IBM were still making them. Can't remember the exact model number but it was a really long time ago (it was like 50GB). IBM actually got sued and lost.

 

It is just another example of what we can see in my post above (and what @Oshino Shinobu said). There are no bad HDD manufacturers. There are however some particularly bad drives, and pretty much all manufacturers have had at least one bad drive. Seagate had the 7200.11 which was very bad. But that was 8 years ago...

True and the WD 3TB green used to be bad now it is fine just slow

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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1 minute ago, SamStrecker said:

True and the WD 3TB green used to be bad now it is fine just slow

OY. You didn't answer my question :/.

 

What's bad about Seagate's 3TB HDD.

Judge a product on its own merits AND the company that made it.

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Just now, AluminiumTech said:

OY. You didn't answer my question :/.

 

What's bad about Seagate's 3TB HDD.

You didn't ask me. Did you? I have no beef with seagate. All I know is a kid at my school went through 5 seagate drives. But I am moving to all SSD in about a month so I could care less. Basically 750 series, 950 pro, and some 1TB Evo Pros

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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On 5/21/2016 at 8:56 AM, Ophidio said:

 

I don't understand why people hate on Seagate drives so much. Yeah so what, they have a big lawsuit against them. That doesn't make them bad drives. Saying they're prone to failing is also just a useless statement. Every drive is prone to failure one way or another. I've used both Seagate and Western Digital in my builds in which the Seagate I have has lasted longer. I've had to get both Western Digital drives in my system replace at least once.

 

hgst is proof that seagate and any other manufacturer need to up their game also WD deserve more hate due to the fact they own hgst yet do not put the same quality into their own drives.

 

fyi hgst has its own manufacturing process separate from WDdrive-stats-2016-q1-failure-by-mfg.jpg

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I haven't had any personal experience with Seagate drives outside of an old 360GB drive that hasn't been used for six years, but I'll chime in about WD, Toshiba, and Hitachi.

 

WD: 3.5 and 7 year old Greens, all three work completely fine.

Toshiba (Fujitsu?): 500GB laptop drive, functions fine and is actually rather snappy for a 5400rpm hard drive; 1TB desktop drive, also really fast and quiet, surprisingly

Hitachi: 500GB and 750GB laptop drive, 500GB drive is unbearably slow but I'm blaming that on the fact that it hasn't been wiped, 750GB drive is relatively snappy, albeit the clicking is a bit loud

 

I don't understand the circlejerk about not going Seagate. From what I can tell they're relatively fast and relatively cheap. Nowadays you don't really wanna avoid them.

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34 minutes ago, wcreek said:

What's wrong with putting an AMD GPU in an Intel build or an Nvidia GPU in an AMD build?

What they meant with AMD/Intel and AMD/Nvidia is the product they make together. Like AMD CPU's vs Intel CPUs and AMD GPU vs Nvidia GPU. You don't see the hate like you would in those conversations in a WD vs Seagate conversation. 

Gaming Desktop - AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, MSI MPG B550 Gaming Plus, 32GB Cosair Vengenace LP 3600mhz, EVGA RTX 3070 XC3 Ultra,  Sabrent Rocket 4 1TB NVME SSD, WD Blue SN570 NVME SSD, 4TB Mass storage, EVGA 750W G2, Corsair 270R

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2 minutes ago, Ophidio said:

What they meant with AMD/Intel and AMD/Nvidia is the product they make together. Like AMD CPU's vs Intel CPUs and AMD GPU vs Nvidia GPU. You don't see the hate like you would in those conversations in a WD vs Seagate conversation. 

See yeah, I thought they were talking about the builds that use like Intel/AMD or AMD/Nvidia... But the comparisons... Yeah a lot of people get heated over the AMD/Intel discussion...

Intel and AMD both have great CPUs for the audiences they're meant for...

AMD/ATI and Nvidia, well it seems that it's always been a power struggle neither has really been hugely better than another. Though recently Nvidia has been ahead of AMD but generally not enough to justify the extra price of the Nvidia card.

 

But in the case of at least Seagate and Western Digital, I think that both brands have good hard drives. For mass storage in my planned build for this summer or early fall I plan on using a Barracuda 2TB HDD. (OS and Programs will be on a 500GB Samsung 850 Evo).

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I got a 1TB WD Black with my original build and it crapped the bed about 7 months into its life. I then RMA'd it and haven't had an issue with the replacement for over 2 more years.

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4 hours ago, wcreek said:

What's wrong with putting an AMD GPU in an Intel build or an Nvidia GPU in an AMD build?

Absolutely nothing. You usually get the best price/performance combo that way.

Aerocool DS are the best fans you've never tried.

 

Hypnotoad's RAM is dying, his motherboard is acting like the 6-year-old AsRock it is, a couple of SATA ports have just stopped working, but the RGB remains. The RGB always remains. Hypnotoad lives. All glory to the Hypnotoad.

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