FBI could hack anonymous computers, regardless of their physical location.

[GreezyJeezy]

2 hours ago, Xorbot said:

You seemed to miss the point that YOU become the suspect.  The result of that would be you could no longer purchase products that you like and you would lose certain freedoms, because data analytics suggest that you may be a future criminal based on your daily habits, likes, and dislikes.

then they check it out and ill be fine

[GreezyJeezy]

30 minutes ago, Link81 said:

The funniest thing is that you disagree with people who care about your rights.

Exactly.

no i understand both sides, and it really doesn't bother me if they can do that

[Beskamir]

4 hours ago, GreezyJeezy said:

Have to use others words don't you buddy

You're no better... The "If you don't do anything illegal you have nothing to be worried about." isn't at all a new argument. Although it has been in different formats like "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear".

 

Anyway borderline ad hominem fallacies aside, your argument is barely holding together. Since what the government thinks is illegal and what is actually morally wrong are two very different things. Keep in mind that in Nazi Germany it was fine to murder people... So if we allow the US to build the systems where they can spy on us like this, and then it becomes a dictatorship, it will be significantly harder to resist against it then than if we just didn't allow them to build the systems that they could abuse to oppress us.

 

Basically if they have the systems in place they will have basically won while if they still have to implement all the systems then we have a better chance at removing the corrupt government.

[Sauron]

3 hours ago, Okjoek said:

Oooooh, okay. IDK then I guess. Cyber spying dilemma. Scawwy tiems I guess. Then again it is to be expected. I mean all communications in history have been able to get hacked by governments at some point. Wire tapping for the telephone etc...

 

IDK I'm not losing any sleep though.

It's not about whether they are physically capable of doing it, but rather if they are allowed to. Especially if it involves tapping data from other countries that did not give them permission to. In theory, law enforcement follows a lead, isolates a few suspects, then gets a warrant to search their homes and data if deemed necessary. What is happening now is that they search all the data forever and then try to find anything that can justify an investigation inside it. This not only is ridiculous from a privacy (and moral) standpoint, it also distracts law enforcement across thousands of tiny infractions that make the real threats more difficult to identify.

 

By the way, have you ever seen the movie "Minority report"? If you haven't, go watch it. It shows pretty well what could become of a society that condemns based on suspicion rather than on evidence, and who is to distinguish the trolls and backseat "extremists" from the actual dangerous people?

[Stadin6]

4 hours ago, GreezyJeezy said:

Have to use others words don't you buddy

Do words loose meaning just because someone else also said it?

[GreezyJeezy]

4 minutes ago, ElfFriend said:

You're no better... The "If you don't do anything illegal you have nothing to be worried about." isn't at all a new argument. Although it has been in different formats like "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear".

 

Anyway borderline ad hominem fallacies aside, your argument is barely holding together. Since what the government thinks is illegal and what is actually morally wrong are two very different things. Keep in mind that in Nazi Germany it was fine to murder people... So if we allow the US to build the systems where they can spy on us like this, and then it becomes a dictatorship, it will be significantly harder to resist against it then than if we just didn't allow them to build the systems that they could abuse to oppress us.

 

Basically if they have the systems in place they will have basically won while if they still have to implement all the systems then we have a better chance at removing the corrupt government.

if you dont like it in the US you are free to move or protest (which will probably only end up with you in jail), i just live how i live, if you think they dont spy on us already you live under a rock. this is just publicly saying the the FBI can/does spy on people.  they can do whatever they want and if we dont like it we can protest and cry all we want and then they just cover up what they do and dont make it public. we never win they just make us think we do.

[GreezyJeezy]

1 minute ago, Stadin6 said:

Do words loose meaning just because someone else also said it?

no just you are not creative enough to think of it yourself.

[The-SooS]

Hi.

 

[Stadin6]

Just now, GreezyJeezy said:

no just you are not creative enough to think of it yourself.

Why would i waste my time making a new one, when the old one is most likely going to be better, and i can use that time making other arguments?

[PCgamer324]

I don't generally like jumping on the "lets attack the anti-privacy guy" threads, but I thought I'd leave me two cents worth...

 

From the way I see it my concerns with these sorts of expansions of powers stem from concerns about basic human behavior.  Humans are prone to making mistakes.  Government is run by humans.  Governments make mistakes (an example being the bombing of an Afghani hospital suspected of housing terrorists, costing 42 people their lives, with those responsible only facing disciplinary action or a discharge from service)  Our system of government is built so that, through democracy and a series of checks and balances, human error is mitigated.  When checks and balances are removed and there is less accountability more mistakes are made.  Un-elected, un-accountable agencies like the FBI, operating without warrants pose a threat to that system.  I fully understand that the majority of the people working at the FBI, for the majority, are trying their best to stop terrorists and criminals.  What I'm asking is that they do it with checks and balances so that we don't end up with repeates of Japanese internment camps and MK-Ultra.

 

While I'm at it I'l summoning @Trik'Stari

[79wjd]

25 minutes ago, ElfFriend said:

....Keep in mind that in Nazi Germany.....

Godwin's Law has been fulfilled, this thread has now served its purpose. 

 

/joke

16 minutes ago, GreezyJeezy said:

no just you are not creative enough to think of it yourself.

By that logic no one should ever quote anyone ever....which would truly be a sad day for society.

[stconquest]

I don't get it.  Who in their right mind truly believes the FBI will protect them from terrorism?  Terrorism is rampant in the USA, and it usually is culturally supported in many cases.  From crackpot white supremacists to women being forced to carry children to going to the fucking bathroom.  The culture in the USA has been conditioned to hate others on a national level and the a percentage of populous acts out on that emotion.  They are not much better than the religious fundamentalists in the middle east... oh wait... they are all up in religious stupidity in the USA too.

 

Too much shit, not enough common sense.  ...fuck, what a bunch of wussies.  Mind your own business. 

[GreezyJeezy]

21 minutes ago, Stadin6 said:

Why would i waste my time making a new one, when the old one is most likely going to be better, and i can use that time making other arguments?

you dont copy words on a report do you? but this argument will go nowhere 

[79wjd]

1 minute ago, GreezyJeezy said:

you dont copy words on a report do you? but this argument will go nowhere 

Actually any half-decent report will quote from several sources. 

 

Just saying. 

[No]

America is a free country!

*Restrictions may apply

 

But wait, regardless of physical location? You don't live in America but another country can spy on you?

[GreezyJeezy]

10 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

Actually any half-decent report will quote from several sources. 

 

Just saying. 

Well he didn't cite his in MLA format sooo, 

[Yog]

3 hours ago, GreezyJeezy said:

If you don't do anything illegal you have nothing to be worried about. 

You say that now but there's a not very slow move in three directions.

 

1. Increasingly complex law. It's becoming easier to break the law because there are more and more laws on the books. Those laws are becoming more and more complex, making it somewhat ambiguous when you're breaking a law.
2. Increasingly omni-present law enforcement. Every year law enforcement gain new powers to surveil the population, being able to pry itself into everyone lives, to see more and more.
3. Increasingly independent law enforcement. Law enforcement individuals are becoming more and more discretionary in how they make arrests and who they arrest, making a choice every day whether or not they want to confront someone, or perhaps arrest someone, whether or not that someone is obviously breaking a law.

 

Individually these things are upsetting but hopefully you can see how, combined, this leads to a very bad end. Year by year with all three of these things increasing it's not hard to believe that everyone could be committing a crime on a regular basis and the government knows about it but choose whether or not to arrest you based on how they rate your online activity. Do you play GTA? Well, maybe the police will pull you over for going 1mph over the speed limit instead of letting you go like they do everyone else. Say something against the current administration? Well, maybe you'll be more likely to get an IRS audit. Post an anti-something (religious, race, sexual orientation, whatever) message on a forum? Well, maybe they'll revoke your business licence for discrimination. And these are just things they could theoretically do right now if only they had more access...think of it if they decided to expand the laws further to start making arrests for some of these things?

 

Oh, but I don't break the law so I'll be fine..yeah, not yet. Not yet you don't. Or do you?

 

Plus, this is just speaking of things LEGALLY. What if politicians decide to be more brazen, legally speaking, and do things ILLEGALLY? They've already been shown that even if they get caught nothing will happen to them...Oh I'm sure congress would bluster about angrily for a while...but after a couple years everything will just fade away and only the expendable people will be arrested.

 

Oh, but you're crazy, this would never happen. Why not? What stops it? Checks and balances? The people? Yeah, if every time a new law is passed that expands one of those three points and people just say, "If you don't do anything illegal you have nothing to be worried about," then there's no reason for this NOT to happen. The government's checks and balances only work if the people voting are the ultimate check and balance...when we don't work none of the precautions any government puts into place will work.

 

I forgot to press submit...oops

[GreezyJeezy]

16 minutes ago, Yog said:

 

nah ill still be fine, as most americans will, and i already have a cop in a small town off the main town i drive through that pulls you over if you go 1 over the speed limit (not evenly lying) its because the town is so small and should really be apart of the big town, but it has 2 police and they never have any bad crimes so they have to pull over speeders to make their quota. i dont open talk about my views online or really in person as i think they should just be for you and you only no need to mess with anyones way of life. the only administration i say bad things about are bad game devs. and really if it got that bad i could buy a house overseas in 5 minutes(-the time looking for it online) and be gone within the next day.

[BuckGup]

I don't think true hackers are stupid enough to keep like hackingtools101.exe on their desktop with tabs in google of youtube videos on how to hack

[stconquest]

17 minutes ago, GreezyJeezy said:

nah ill still be fine, as most americans will, and i already have a cop in a small town off the main town i drive through that pulls you over if you go 1 over the speed limit (not evenly lying) its because the town is so small and should really be apart of the big town, but it has 2 police and they never have any bad crimes so they have to pull over speeders to make their quota. i dont open talk about my views online or really in person as i think they should just be for you and you only no need to mess with anyones way of life. the only administration i say bad things about are bad game devs. and really if it got that bad i could buy a house overseas in 5 minutes(-the time looking for it online) and be gone within the next day.

I really think you are missing the point.  It is a stupid thing to believe efforts like monitoring everyone's PC will stop any act of real terrorism.  A determined group will just find another way to communicate, or have knowledge of how to skirt the detection system.

 

The USA spends so much time and money to protect itself from nothing.  The FBI would not have this kind of room to be this stupid unless the population and governing body was no better than a wide eyed and very frightened child... scared of an anthropomorphic boogieman.  Fix what kills people within the borders, instead of chasing ghosts everywhere else in the world.

 

Us vs them mentality becomes a double-edged sword.  If you can empower the population to truly care about each other, respect each other, then the community will build a very real defense against fundamentalist terrorists... this fancy technology can be referred to as "bolstered intelligence".  The smarter people are, the more evident it becomes that hurting others is ultimately non-productive and can very well hurt the offender in the long run.

 

...but of course, that is pie in the sky, SJW shit, so it can't be true.

[GreezyJeezy]

2 minutes ago, stconquest said:

 

i guess you are also for greet you cant stop the FBI from doing anything unless you because one of the most powerful influential govent offices and have a say in it, or rid the FBI of existence so both are almost impossible. they will do what they want whether its legal or not, you cant stop them all you can do is protest and have them stop publicly saying this information and passing laws when people are not aware of them by passing it when there is a big act or cruises going on to distract eveyone from it like they have done in the past. you cant stop it so why not just live life and not bother with it. and no it won't stop 100% of terrorists but it can stop the dumb ones who are self acting not officially affiliated with a terrorist group and just want to be and save all their plans on a word document. its not worth it to get your panites in a bunch about something you have no power over.  

[stconquest]

35 minutes ago, GreezyJeezy said:

i guess you are also for greet you cant stop the FBI from doing anything unless you because one of the most powerful influential govent offices and have a say in it, or rid the FBI of existence so both are almost impossible. they will do what they want whether its legal or not, you cant stop them all you can do is protest and have them stop publicly saying this information and passing laws when people are not aware of them by passing it when there is a big act or cruises going on to distract eveyone from it like they have done in the past. you cant stop it so why not just live life and not bother with it. and no it won't stop 100% of terrorists but it can stop the dumb ones who are self acting not officially affiliated with a terrorist group and just want to be and save all their plans on a word document. its not worth it to get your panites in a bunch about something you have no power over.  

Well, thanks for clarifying.  I had no idea the FBI and government were magical and omniscient entities.  I see now, they can't be stopped.  What is the point of caring about others, just worry about yourself.  That should work out fine.

 

/s:  Your message is exactly what I was talking about.  Intelligence is a very valuable commodity and most people only use it to get a paycheck... hmm... maybe there is something to that.  If you really think you have no power, that is just too bad for you and the people like you.  Fortunately, there are people in the world that actually understand how things work and their chosen place in this world involves making it better.  Don't worry, I am not one of them... I simply play video games.

[GreezyJeezy]

Just now, stconquest said:

Well, thanks for clarifying.  I had no idea the FBI and government were magical and omniscient entities.  I see now, they can't be stopped.  What is the point of caring about others, just worry about yourself.  That should work out fine.

 

/s:  Your message is exactly what I was talking about.  Intelligence is a very valuable commodity and most people only use it to get a paycheck... hmm... maybe there is something to that.  If you really think you have no power, that is just too bad for you, and the people like you.  Fortunately, there are people in the world that actually understand how things work and their chosen place in this world involves making it better.  Don't worry, I am not one of them... I simply play video games.

the only way you have power is to overthrow them, do you really think singing your name and standing outside their building will change anything? no it will just make them do it privately. go outside the FBI headquarters with you little sign and tell me how you just saved the world from being spied on

[stconquest]

1 minute ago, GreezyJeezy said:

the only way you have power is to overthrow them, do you really think singing your name and standing outside their building will change anything? no it will just make them do it privately. go outside the FBI headquarters with you little sign and tell me how you just saved the world from being spied on

Wrong again.  Protesting can empower an individual to change their mind.  Amazing fact:  congress and the senate are full of individuals.  Protests can also raise public awareness. 

 

I guess living in the USA has done something to you.  Do you really have no understanding what civil disobedience accomplishes in other parts of the world?  Do you think it is just a bunch of bums and SJWs running around with signs?

 

Maybe you should pack up and leave.  See the world, the real one.  The one that includes more than just you.

[Link81]

 It makes no sense to talk about freedom and right to privacy with conformists.