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turkey3_scratch

Why you Should Not Purchase the EVGA G2 Lineup Especially in Homes with Frequent Brownouts

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10 hours ago, STRMfrmXMN said:

I'm pretty sure this problem does not apply to the EVGA G2, but to the original unit it was based off of from Super Flower. It's not a direct rebrand as far as I understand.

I still don't see how this would actually provide enough stress on VRM's, ESP modern motherboards which tend to go insane mode, to cause any real long term damage from isolated incidents.

 

I can imagine this being a problem if it happens on a semi-regular basis, but I think people are massively underestimating the capabilities of modern hardware (not that I think it would matter even on most older systems that were designed with safety factors to account for the much "dirtier" power supply market.)


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So my P2 seems to be safe from what I saw you post a few messages down, either way I almost NEVER have power outages, so it wouldn't be a big issue. 

 

Either way I love this unit to death, it's gone through hell and works flawlessly still.  I recently put my 980 TI and 6700k under dry ice at the same time, and was pulling 700+ watts through the card and a very good chunk through my CPU as well, and not once did I have any issues. It worked like a charm.


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Tempest in a teapot. Even so, just running a good quality UPS will fix this issue no problem. A quality UPS, not a surge protector, will condition the power before it ever gets to the psu. No spikes or dropouts.


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Yeah this been out for a while... this was main reason I decided to go with corsair RmX and not evga g2 few mobths ago when I built my pc... 

But anyways evga fan base is huge here and many will recomend it...

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I'm going to get a Corsair RM650i instead of the G2 650, just to be safe :)


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I just purchased a G2 750W last week and currently in the process of an RMA with EVGA because my fan is very loud compared to an RM650 that I recently sold. I don't know if the replacement would be any better or if I'm just expecting too much out of the fan on this unit. Anyway with this potential issue on the G2 series, would it be better to just return the G2 and pick up a PSU from the Corsair RMX series?

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I know this thread is a few days old, but I though in case anyone stumbles upon it I will ad something that I found. 

 

The EVGA g2 650W appears not suffer from the problem according to TechPowerUP's testing, and is above the accpetable ATX spec for Hold-up Time.  

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/EVGA/SuperNOVA_G2_650/5.html


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Posted · Original PosterOP
On 5/11/2016 at 10:53 PM, Imabigmac said:

I know this thread is a few days old, but I though in case anyone stumbles upon it I will ad something that I found. 

 

The EVGA g2 650W appears not suffer from the problem according to TechPowerUP's testing, and is above the accpetable ATX spec for Hold-up Time.  

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/EVGA/SuperNOVA_G2_650/5.html

What you see in that graph is AC_LOSS to PWR_OK time.

hold_up_time.jpg

The yellow line is the PWR_OK signal, the blue is AC. Tha fact that it drops the PWR_OK signal after 21ms makes it suspicious that it does so long after the voltage is below 11.4V, especially since the 650 G2 uses the same bulk capacitor as the 550 G2. That review was from October, before Aris started testing AC_LOSS to DC_LOSS.

 

If you want to learn about this stuff in detail, clear from confusion, I suggest you read this: http://psu.guru/articles/Why%20I%20Never%20Understood%20Holdup%20Time.html

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2 hours ago, turkey3_scratch said:

What you see in that graph is AC_LOSS to PWR_OK time.

 

The yellow line is the PWR_OK signal, the blue is AC. Tha fact that it drops the PWR_OK signal after 21ms makes it suspicious that it does so long after the voltage is below 11.4V, especially since the 650 G2 uses the same bulk capacitor as the 550 G2. That review was from October, before Aris started testing AC_LOSS to DC_LOSS.

 

If you want to learn about this stuff in detail, clear from confusion, I suggest you read this: http://psu.guru/articles/Why%20I%20Never%20Understood%20Holdup%20Time.html

Thank you, It appears my knowledge on the topic lies exactly where manufactures wants it to be, next to zero and it appears I'm not the only one either. 

 

But this bit is still what intrigues me, 

Quote

Hold-up time easily surpassed the 16 ms mark the ATX specification sets. Please note that although the unit uses the exact same bulk cap as the 550 G2 that failed this test, it somehow managed to produce a very long hold-up time. Given the 550 G2 has 100 W less capacity, it should register an even lower hold-up time than its small brother. The assumption is that significant improvements that somehow affect the hold-up time were made, or that the bulk cap of our 550 G2 sample wasn't at its best. 

So assuming TechPowerUp isn't lying, as I can't find a published G2 550W review on their site, there may in fact be more to the story. It does appear to be safe to say that until farther testing is done we won't know, testing that appears to very rare. A shame really - if you can't fully test a power supply why bother with a half attempt and rate it really good. A reputable site like JohnnyGuru doesn't test this - yet they feel fine telling readers that the G2 lineup a top notch. I suppose this is just another way consumers get screwed all while thinking they have done their research. 


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hm... while I probably wouldn't be affected by such an issue, it makes me weary that its an issue in the first place. Does Corsair do the same?

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On 4/27/2016 at 11:14 AM, Tibbles said:

I'm going to get a Corsair RM650i instead of the G2 650, just to be safe :)

Well how frequent are brownouts in your area?
 

At least for me power outages (whether brownouts or blackouts) almost never happen. If they do the power goes off for like maybe a few seconds and then comes back.

 

Not something a UPS couldn't fix. Though the RMi PSUs aren't bad either. Especially if it's cheaper.

 

 

 


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Posted · Original PosterOP
16 hours ago, wcreek said:

Well how frequent are brownouts in your area?
 

At least for me power outages (whether brownouts or blackouts) almost never happen. If they do the power goes off for like maybe a few seconds and then comes back.

 

Not something a UPS couldn't fix. Though the RMi PSUs aren't bad either. Especially if it's cheaper.

 

 

 

The thing with UPSs, though, in order to get one that doesn't suck eggs you need to spend maybe $200 or more. Tomshardware does some UPS reviews, and golly gee some are just pitiful.

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6 minutes ago, turkey3_scratch said:

The thing with UPSs, though, in order to get one that doesn't suck eggs you need to spend maybe $200 or more. Tomshardware does some UPS reviews, and golly gee some are just pitiful.

I suppose.

I don't know, I just don't think that it'd be as huge of a deal as it sounds as long as brownouts don't happen frequently in your area if they do I suppose instead of spending $200+ to protect your PC and PSU just get a PSU that won't kill your parts if there's a brownout just get something like an RMi.


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Posted · Original PosterOP

Yeah, it's not actually a big deal. As I've said, I went a little overboard at first. According to the Intel ATX spec, the 12V has a tolerance of as low as 10.8V when the PSU encounters a peak load situation, for a duration of 10ms. So, it's not like some time below 11.4V is going to necessarily kill hardware. Except if a PS isn't under full load, it'll take a longer time to go from normal voltage all the way down to 10.8V or whatever the trigger is, which could mean something like 100ms of being under 11.4V.

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On 23/4/2016 at 1:04 AM, turkey3_scratch said:

The EVGA G2 lineup is considered by many to be very high quality, the P2 considered fantastic, but the latest testing by professional reviewers shows that some or perhaps all of these units have a serious flaw that won't harm the PSU but could harm your other hardware. It's important to explain the concepts before anything. Very few reviewers test for this stuff - Aris, who does power supply reviews on Tomshardware and Techpowerup, very recently started a new test. This new test shows that many units have newly revealed flaws, and this problem exists with the EVGA G2 and P2 lineup. The EVGA G2 series is a direct copy of the Superflower Leadex Gold series. The EVGA P2 series is a direct copy of the Superflower Leadex Platinum series.

 

Old Hold-Up Time Tests

 

In the past, most power supply reviewers would test "hold-up time" as the amount of time from when there is AC loss (i.e. power outage) to when the unit shuts off, while under full load. For example, if a power supply is under 100% load and there is a power outage, if it takes 20ms for the power supply to shut off, it would be defined as having a hold-up time of 20ms. However, this is not an actual test with what hold-up time really is, and new tests reveal new realities. The old hold-up time tests are not in exact accordance with the definition of hold-up time.

 

Hold-Up Time

 

Hold-up time is defined as the time period from when there is AC loss to when a voltage goes below ATX specification. The ATX specification for the 12V rail is from 11.4V to 12.6V. So if there is AC loss and it takes a power supply 20ms until its 12V voltage gets down to 11.4V, then 20ms is the hold-up time. Some people incorrectly define hold-up time as the time between AC loss and when the power supply shuts off. This is incorrect; a power supply may actually shut itself off after hold-up time. Hold-up time is strictly the amount of time from AC loss until a voltage goes out of specification.

 

AC_LOSS to PWR_OK_OFF

 

When there is AC loss, the voltage outputs of the power supply begin to drop to lower numbers. It is the job of the circuitry of the power supply to detect this and shut off the unit before the voltages go below  the ATX specification. Basically, under-voltage protection. Before any of those voltages go out of specification, the power supply is supposed to cut the PWR_OK signal. The PWR_OK signal is a cable in the main 24-pin ATX cable used to communicate with the motherboard. When on, it's telling the motherboard that its voltages are all safe. When the PWR_OK signal is cut, circuitry is supposed to shut off the power supply as fast as possible so the voltages don't go out of specification.

 

The latest testing methods in renowned power supply reviews are AC_LOSS to PWR_OK tests. This tests the duration of time it takes from there being AC loss to the computer dropping the PWR_OK signal. So, for example, if there is a power outage, your computer is under full load, and your power supply has an AC_LOSS to PWR_OK time of 18ms, then in 18ms your power supply will tell your motherboard, "Hey! Voltages are about to get low. Better shut me off now." And then the unit will be shut down quite rapidly once the PWR_OK signal is dropped.

 

There is a catch though: some power supply units drop the PWR_OK signal after the voltages go out of specification. This means when there is AC_LOSS, the power supply will continue providing the computer with energy as those voltages go deeper and deeper below the ATX specification. Once it gets to a certain low point, then it'll cut the PWR_OK signal, after harm has already been done. In a way, this is a cheating method used by power supply manufacturers to do well on old hold-up time tests that check the duration of AC_LOSS to PSU shutdown time. This cheating method is also dangerous.

 

EVGA G2 550 Flaw

 

The EVGA 550 G2 has this exact flaw. It drops the PWR_OK signal at 10.8V. This information can be found at the Tomshardware Superflower Leadex Gold 550 review here: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/super-flower-leadex-gold-550w-power-supply,4416-4.html

 

Some of you may be thinking, "Oh, it's just 10.8V, no big deal." No, this is  a big deal. Power supply experts like Aris (who did the above review) say it is a serious matter, as well as the experts on the Jonnyguru forums. It is a serious issue, and the EVGA 550 G2 should not be purchased because of it, especially in areas where there are frequent power outages.

 

It is important to note that Aris did do a review on the EVGA 550 G2 here, but that was before these new tests came about.

 

EVGA P2 Series Assumed Flaw

 

Most likely, the entire EVGA P2 lineup has the same issue, but right now it is merely speculation (but a pretty good one). The Superflower Leadex Platinum 550 review here: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/super-flower-leadex-platinum-550w-power-supply,4281-4.html

 

This review was before the PWR_OK to AC_LOSS tests. Hold-up time was tested to be 13.8ms. That is below the ATX specification. There is no doubt in my mind that it probably drops the PWR_OK signal at 10.8V just like the EVGA 550 G2, in order to "cheat" and get good hold-up times on the old hold-up time tests.

 

EVGA T2 is Safe

 

The EVGA Titanium lineup has been tested and does not have this issue.

 

EVGA G2: Rest of Lineup

 

As of now, the non-550W versions of the EVGA G2 lineup may have these issues, but we cannot know for sure. Power supply experts are pretty confident the rest of the G2 lineup does have this problem, which is very important.

 

What to do Now?

 

Realize that sometimes units we think are incredible really are not. Everybody likes to go around forums talking about how fantastic the EVGA G2 lineup is, but with this problem, how can it be? It shouldn't make any high tier on any list, because Superflower cheats to get good hold-up time on old tests, and sets far too low under-voltage protection values. It is a serious matter, because the VRMs of all your hardware can be seriously affected by such a low voltage, 10.8V. There is a reason the ATX specification exists. 10.8V is two times out of the specification.

 

Should I still be worried about the holdup time flaw regarding a G2 550?

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It's odd how even though I researched all my PC hardware for several months before buying, none of this was ever mentioned in any of the places I looked. I know what a brownout is but I have no idea if ones ever happened here. When I'm home I'm always busy with something so never have the ability to notice anything but a total blackout or if I simply hear my Back UPS Network 40's alarm shriek from random surges. I have a G2 550W though due to all the highly positive reviews Newegg has plus the fact it was marked down to $65.00 at the time of purchase. I just can't see how any owner of this should panic & buy another when Newegg has a 5 star rating with 89 reviews. Even if it is in-fact a serious issue at heart, from the looks of user experiences the chances of it actually causing harm are little to none. If the PSU itself isn't acting faulty, how can one return it after owning for a couple months anyway? Aren't RMA's only for if it's currently actively defective?


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Posted · Original PosterOP

Just to be clear this is a really old post of mine and I probably made this out to be a bigger deal than it is. I wouldn't worry about your hardware honestly, I think I got a little hyped up in all the excitement myself.

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On 4/22/2016 at 4:04 PM, turkey3_scratch said:

The EVGA G2 lineup is considered by many to be very high quality, the P2 considered fantastic, but the latest testing by professional reviewers shows that some or perhaps all of these units have a serious flaw that won't harm the PSU but could harm your other hardware. It's important to explain the concepts before anything. Very few reviewers test for this stuff - Aris, who does power supply reviews on Tomshardware and Techpowerup, very recently started a new test. This new test shows that many units have newly revealed flaws, and this problem exists with the EVGA G2 and P2 lineup. The EVGA G2 series is a direct copy of the Superflower Leadex Gold series. The EVGA P2 series is a direct copy of the Superflower Leadex Platinum series.

 

Old Hold-Up Time Tests

 

In the past, most power supply reviewers would test "hold-up time" as the amount of time from when there is AC loss (i.e. power outage) to when the unit shuts off, while under full load. For example, if a power supply is under 100% load and there is a power outage, if it takes 20ms for the power supply to shut off, it would be defined as having a hold-up time of 20ms. However, this is not an actual test with what hold-up time really is, and new tests reveal new realities. The old hold-up time tests are not in exact accordance with the definition of hold-up time.

 

Hold-Up Time

 

Hold-up time is defined as the time period from when there is AC loss to when a voltage goes below ATX specification. The ATX specification for the 12V rail is from 11.4V to 12.6V. So if there is AC loss and it takes a power supply 20ms until its 12V voltage gets down to 11.4V, then 20ms is the hold-up time. Some people incorrectly define hold-up time as the time between AC loss and when the power supply shuts off. This is incorrect; a power supply may actually shut itself off after hold-up time. Hold-up time is strictly the amount of time from AC loss until a voltage goes out of specification.

 

AC_LOSS to PWR_OK_OFF

 

When there is AC loss, the voltage outputs of the power supply begin to drop to lower numbers. It is the job of the circuitry of the power supply to detect this and shut off the unit before the voltages go below  the ATX specification. Basically, under-voltage protection. Before any of those voltages go out of specification, the power supply is supposed to cut the PWR_OK signal. The PWR_OK signal is a cable in the main 24-pin ATX cable used to communicate with the motherboard. When on, it's telling the motherboard that its voltages are all safe. When the PWR_OK signal is cut, circuitry is supposed to shut off the power supply as fast as possible so the voltages don't go out of specification.

 

The latest testing methods in renowned power supply reviews are AC_LOSS to PWR_OK tests. This tests the duration of time it takes from there being AC loss to the computer dropping the PWR_OK signal. So, for example, if there is a power outage, your computer is under full load, and your power supply has an AC_LOSS to PWR_OK time of 18ms, then in 18ms your power supply will tell your motherboard, "Hey! Voltages are about to get low. Better shut me off now." And then the unit will be shut down quite rapidly once the PWR_OK signal is dropped.

 

There is a catch though: some power supply units drop the PWR_OK signal after the voltages go out of specification. This means when there is AC_LOSS, the power supply will continue providing the computer with energy as those voltages go deeper and deeper below the ATX specification. Once it gets to a certain low point, then it'll cut the PWR_OK signal, after harm has already been done. In a way, this is a cheating method used by power supply manufacturers to do well on old hold-up time tests that check the duration of AC_LOSS to PSU shutdown time. This cheating method is also dangerous.

 

EVGA G2 550 Flaw

 

The EVGA 550 G2 has this exact flaw. It drops the PWR_OK signal at 10.8V. This information can be found at the Tomshardware Superflower Leadex Gold 550 review here: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/super-flower-leadex-gold-550w-power-supply,4416-4.html

 

Some of you may be thinking, "Oh, it's just 10.8V, no big deal." No, this is  a big deal. Power supply experts like Aris (who did the above review) say it is a serious matter, as well as the experts on the Jonnyguru forums. It is a serious issue, and the EVGA 550 G2 should not be purchased because of it, especially in areas where there are frequent power outages.

 

It is important to note that Aris did do a review on the EVGA 550 G2 here, but that was before these new tests came about.

 

EVGA P2 Series Assumed Flaw

 

Most likely, the entire EVGA P2 lineup has the same issue, but right now it is merely speculation (but a pretty good one). The Superflower Leadex Platinum 550 review here: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/super-flower-leadex-platinum-550w-power-supply,4281-4.html

 

This review was before the PWR_OK to AC_LOSS tests. Hold-up time was tested to be 13.8ms. That is below the ATX specification. There is no doubt in my mind that it probably drops the PWR_OK signal at 10.8V just like the EVGA 550 G2, in order to "cheat" and get good hold-up times on the old hold-up time tests.

 

EVGA T2 is Safe

 

The EVGA Titanium lineup has been tested and does not have this issue.

 

EVGA G2: Rest of Lineup

 

As of now, the non-550W versions of the EVGA G2 lineup may have these issues, but we cannot know for sure. Power supply experts are pretty confident the rest of the G2 lineup does have this problem, which is very important.

 

What to do Now?

 

Realize that sometimes units we think are incredible really are not. Everybody likes to go around forums talking about how fantastic the EVGA G2 lineup is, but with this problem, how can it be? It shouldn't make any high tier on any list, because Superflower cheats to get good hold-up time on old tests, and sets far too low under-voltage protection values. It is a serious matter, because the VRMs of all your hardware can be seriously affected by such a low voltage, 10.8V. There is a reason the ATX specification exists. 10.8V is two times out of the specification.

As of now is it still having these problems?

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None of this would matter in theory if you have a battery back up

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Posted · Original PosterOP
On 7/14/2017 at 10:43 AM, TVwazhere said:

None of this would matter in theory if you have a battery back up

I'm not spending money on a battery backup, I'd rather just let my computer shut off and turn it back on.

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On 7/12/2017 at 2:22 PM, turkey3_scratch said:

Just to be clear this is a really old post of mine and I probably made this out to be a bigger deal than it is. I wouldn't worry about your hardware honestly, I think I got a little hyped up in all the excitement myself.

Glad you finally came to that conclusion without having to get Aris or Jeremy come get you sorted out.

 

Just playing Turkey, I was looking at something else and came across this accidentally. Why are you over here consorting with dipshits? You're too smart for that, even if you do jump the gun and get a little bit of overachievement syndrome every now and then. I guess it stands to reason that SOMEBODY (Meaning you) with half a brain needs to try and bring some kind of genuinely intelligent insight to this forum, because most of what little I've seen here is so far off from reality that I often visit when I just need a good laugh. Ok, maybe not quite THAT bad, but sometimes it's a close call.

 

BTW, kind of goes to show how young and enthusiastic you are that only six months after posting this you'd claim it was a "really old post of mine".

 

To me, "really old posts" are ones I made more than five years ago. LOL. Take it easy bud, I'm just yanking your chain.

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