Before you buy amp and DAC + recommendations.

[Dan G.]

Any suggestions on getting fuller sound from Sennheiser HD600s played from the headphone jack of Marantz CD5004? Will a DAC or headphone amp help? I don't feel like I'm getting the soundstage I should be getting. Feels like I'm missing some of the sound.

[applesuxD]

On 11/10/2017 at 9:52 AM, seduce_me said:

Lol no. Chord's stuff is ridiculously mediocre for such a high price.

The best practical system I can think of (no hard to find stuff) is a good source like Lynx AES16e or some other DDC feeding a Schiit Yggdrasil and an end game amp like EC Studio and Focal Utopia/HD800.

 

Chord Dave is alright but that price isn't going to work out. 

I went to give a listen at a headphone store again and compared some amps here and there.

The chord mojo just oddly pairs very well with the Aeon flow closed.

I looked online to see if I'm autistic but everyone seems to agree

 

So i'd say +1 for the mojos, only if you have the aeons.

 

I've had people telling me not to ever buy a chord dave or something at a similar price point. They basically spent 50 thousand dollars lol.

And some of them settled with extremely simple setups.

[applesuxD]

Btw how is the NFB 15.32 in comparison to the NFB 11 ?

[an actual squirrel]

I see the modi 2 recommended a lot here. This is interesting because on audiosciencereview's test bench, the modi 2 performed horribly. So we have possibly the best selling audio dac ending up being a dud. How did we get to this place?

 

A key issue is expectation bias - surely something with a sleek look, a spiffy website, and from an audiophile brand must be good, right? Especially with all the positive word of mouth on the schiit audio forum, sbaf? Well, it turns out no. And it's unlikely a lot of modi purchasers would have a high quality dac as a reference point to know what things are supposed to sound like. So we have this loop where people assumed the modi was good, it influenced their perception, and their anecdotes further fueled hype.

 

So in the future, I would suggest that people try to verify the audio quality of products before recommending them, to prevent a situation like this from happening again.

[Dackzy]

1 hour ago, an actual squirrel said:

I see the modi 2 recommended a lot here. This is interesting because on audiosciencereview's test bench, the modi 2 performed horribly. So we have possibly the best selling audio dac ending up being a dud. How did we get to this place?

 

A key issue is expectation bias - surely something with a sleek look, a spiffy website, and from an audiophile brand must be good, right? Especially with all the positive word of mouth on the schiit audio forum, sbaf? Well, it turns out no. And it's unlikely a lot of modi purchasers would have a high quality dac as a reference point to know what things are supposed to sound like. So we have this loop where people assumed the modi was good, it influenced their perception, and their anecdotes further fueled hype.

 

So in the future, I would suggest that people try to verify the audio quality of products before recommending them, to prevent a situation like this from happening again.

What test are you refering to?

I have personally yet to hear a DAC that cost 100$ that can beat the modi 2. The ODAC can't keep up in detail or width and there frankly aren't a lot of budget DACs.

[an actual squirrel]

 

29 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

What test are you refering to?

I have personally yet to hear a DAC that cost 100$ that can beat the modi 2. The ODAC can't keep up in detail or width and there frankly aren't a lot of budget DACs.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/budget-dac-review-schiit-modi-2-99.1649/

 

They also measured an odac rev b more recently. It wasn't anything special, but by virtue of not being a disaster, it does end up looking a lot better than the modi 2. Of the ones reviewed over there, the budget dac that actually performed the best turned out to be the topping d30.

[Dackzy]

13 minutes ago, an actual squirrel said:

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/budget-dac-review-schiit-modi-2-99.1649/

 

They also measured an odac rev b more recently. It wasn't anything special, but by virtue of not being a disaster, it does end up looking a lot better than the modi 2. Of the ones reviewed over there, the budget dac that actually performed the best turned out to be the topping d30.

have you actually heard them both or are you just going straight of those jitter messurements? Because I can tell you right now that the ODAC sounds more compressed than the modi 2, with less detail and very narrow sound.

 

All the gear on this list is stuff that I have tried and found good for its price. I don't really care about hype or brand.

I have yet to test the topping d30, so I can't say how it actually sounds, but it is now on my list of things I want to test and thank you for that.

[an actual squirrel]

1 hour ago, Dackzy said:

have you actually heard them both or are you just going straight of those jitter messurements? Because I can tell you right now that the ODAC sounds more compressed than the modi 2, with less detail and very narrow sound.

 

All the gear on this list is stuff that I have tried and found good for its price. I don't really care about hype or brand.

I have yet to test the topping d30, so I can't say how it actually sounds, but it is now on my list of things I want to test and thank you for that.

I haven't heard them, but there's fairly conclusive evidence that the modi 2 has some serious problems.

 

I'm not trying to attack the list, it's more I think this is an insane situation we find ourselves in. Had it not been for one reviewer actually checking the performance, no one would have guessed there was any issues. The audio equipment market is uncomfortably precarious. Unless things are explicitly shown to be good by independent reviewers, there is some inherent risk in buying them.

[Dackzy]

39 minutes ago, an actual squirrel said:

I haven't heard them, but there's fairly conclusive evidence that the modi 2 has some serious problems.

 

I'm not trying to attack the list, it's more I think this is an insane situation we find ourselves in. Had it not been for one reviewer actually checking the performance, no one would have guessed there was any issues. The audio equipment market is uncomfortably precarious. Unless things are explicitly shown to be good by independent reviewers, there is some inherent risk in buying them.

Yes it has some problems, but it is also only 99$. I think most people are pretty up front about it being good for 99$, but nothing else. Oh I don't take it as a attack on the list, no worries there

I hope that the modi 3 fixes some of the problems, but TBH I don't think that it will.

[seduce_me]

The dude screws up his measurements. Look here: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/measurements-are-hard.5159/

[SSL]

12 hours ago, an actual squirrel said:

audiosciencereview's test bench

 

As pointed out, "audio science review" is dubiously named.

 

12 hours ago, an actual squirrel said:

So in the future, I would suggest that people try to verify the audio quality of products before recommending them, to prevent a situation like this from happening again.

 

So in the future, I would suggest you try to verify the quality of measurements before recommending them, to prevent a situation like this from happening again.

[an actual squirrel]

12 hours ago, seduce_me said:

The dude screws up his measurements. Look here: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/measurements-are-hard.5159/

 

In the audiosciencereview thread, someone else independently measures a different modi 2 that was connected to a raspberry pi and gets the same poor results. The schiit guys will obviously get defensive, but even their own gen v usb addon for the bifrost playfully implies that usb input on their other dacs isn't good.

 

In the cases where it measures poorly, people were using like $20k oscilloscopes. The sbaf guy is just using a soundcard, and his measurements were with a usb purifier, which is not a typical use case. 

[applesuxD]

End of the dayyyyy..... Trust your own ears.

 

So far:

 

I know chord products seem ok. The chord dave and mojo are good.

Oppo HA2 is frigging balls to the walls

Audio gd nfb 15.32 is good.

Aune X1s is also really good but need more power

The Jotunheims are becoming old at this point with things like audio gd, aune x1s with the same sound quality but just not as loud.

 

 

And people will disagree.

 

But if it reduces clipping, buzzing and sounds good (not gonna get to details how an amp or dac helps the sound) with whatever pair of headphones you have, then its fine. 

 

but of course cross refer w/ your current source to see if your headphones even need an amp/dac to start with.

 

gotta make sure that google pixel earpods get good current

 

[an actual squirrel]

The chord mojo and dave had good reviews in stereophile. The schiit jotunheim headphone amp had a positive review by jude of head-fi iirc. Those products I am not suspect of.  Audio gd though... they seemed like they were more on the dubious side of the audiophile spectrum, seeing how they talk about acss and avoiding feedback in their amps. Still might be good, idk, but I'm very skeptical.

[applesuxD]

12 hours ago, an actual squirrel said:

The chord mojo and dave had good reviews in stereophile. The schiit jotunheim headphone amp had a positive review by jude of head-fi iirc. Those products I am not suspect of.  Audio gd though... they seemed like they were more on the dubious side of the audiophile spectrum, seeing how they talk about acss and avoiding feedback in their amps. Still might be good, idk, but I'm very skeptical.

I tried them w/ the aeons,

I haven't noticed any negative changes so far w/ my ears.

So either I have hearing impairedness or that it's working fine lol

 

Audio GD is pretty consistent throughout r/headphones, sometimes head-fi, and some other places

 

and r/headphones hates the absolute shit out of head-fi so I guess there's that to consider.

 

But again, trust your own ears.

 

 

[Guest]

@an actual squirrel ... @SSL ... @Dackzy ... Excellent points on all sides.  BTW, SSL, you were showcased on a LTT wrt soundcards (Linus laid it on a bit thick mind you... he made SSL out to be HARD CORE).

 

I'm going to trust my ears and TRY not to burn off too much of my beer allowance on shiny aural trinkets. Cheers, eh.

[SSL]

23 hours ago, PrometheanCat2 said:

BTW, SSL, you were showcased on a LTT wrt soundcards (Linus laid it on a bit thick mind you... he made SSL out to be HARD CORE).

 

Yeah, I heard. Of all the videos he could have made it had to be that one.

[applesuxD]

9 minutes ago, SSL said:

 

Yeah, I heard. Of all the videos he could have made it had to be that one.

RGB > every fact in the world

[applesuxD]

23 hours ago, PrometheanCat2 said:

@an actual squirrel ... @SSL ... @Dackzy ... Excellent points on all sides.  BTW, SSL, you were showcased on a LTT wrt soundcards (Linus laid it on a bit thick mind you... he made SSL out to be HARD CORE).

 

I'm going to trust my ears and TRY not to burn off too much of my beer allowance on shiny aural trinkets. Cheers, eh.

I would recommend you try shitty mastered songs like "somethin' stupid" to test for buzz/clipping. The song itself does have it, but if it's excessive, the amp/dac probably sucks

 

Get Lucky by daft punk, and bohemian rhapsody, and Linus' fav hotel california are all that I'd recommend for listening to the tonal balance (frequency response)

 

And the whole La La Land cast in general is amazing for all round testing

 

They just happen to be my fav songs too lol!

[shizmoo]

So I have two systems set up:

 

B&W PX headphones + IPhoneX

 

Dayton b652 air, Dayton sub 1000 10”, Dayton DTA-1 Class T Digital Amplifier 15 WPC + ga-z170x gaming g7 motherboard

 

So you’re telling me there will be no difference in sound for either if I buy a AudioQuest Dragonfly Red DAC and hook it up? I see a lot of people saying they improve sound quality. 

[Dackzy]

2 minutes ago, shizmoo said:

So I have two systems set up:

 

B&W PX headphones + IPhoneX

 

Dayton b652 air, Dayton sub 1000 10”, Dayton DTA-1 Class T Digital Amplifier 15 WPC + ga-z170x gaming g7 motherboard

 

So you’re telling me there will be no difference in sound for either if I buy a AudioQuest Dragonfly Red DAC and hook it up? I see a lot of people saying they improve sound quality. 

there will be a difference. I think it is point 4 or 5 with reasons to get a DAC says higher audio quality, same with amp. For your setup I would rather think about if it is worth getting one for, that is not something I can answer.

But I will say that I wouldn't recommend a dragonfly. Like they were good way way back in time, but not really anymore. A schiit modi 2 uber would be a better option and if you also want a headphone output then a modi 2 and magni 3, that should cost the same as a AudioQuest Dragonfly Red

[shizmoo]

14 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

there will be a difference. I think it is point 4 or 5 with reasons to get a DAC says higher audio quality, same with amp. For your setup I would rather think about if it is worth getting one for, that is not something I can answer.

But I will say that I wouldn't recommend a dragonfly. Like they were good way way back in time, but not really anymore. A schiit modi 2 uber would be a better option and if you also want a headphone output then a modi 2 and magni 3, that should cost the same as a AudioQuest Dragonfly Red

The posts im seeing from you say if you got a good motherboard and no issues, it would be a waste to get DAC. I am looking to further improve quality, but if its minor im not going to bother. If the modi 2 does make a noticeable difference with my set-up I will buy it.

[Dackzy]

16 minutes ago, shizmoo said:

The posts im seeing from you say if you got a good motherboard and no issues, it would be a waste to get DAC. I am looking to further improve quality, but if its minor im not going to bother. If the modi 2 does make a noticeable difference with my set-up I will buy it.

Spoiler

Reasons to get a DAC.

 

1. Noise in your sound

2. Your onboard makes the sound warm or cold sounding

3. Over all low quality sound coming from your onboard

4. Can look nice

5. You want more detail and higher audio quality

 

Reasons to get a amp.

 

1. You can't power your headphones. (your headphones don't get loud enough)

2. Your headphones sound muddy only at that pc (kinda the same as Nr. 1)

3. Can look nice.

4. You want to try tube sound. (they get really hot, so do NOT touch them.)

5. You want better audio quality (though keep in mind that if your source is bad then it won't suddenly sound good with a better amp)

6. Less noise

 

A DAC and amp will not make your headphones a lot better if you already have "transparent" sound and they are powered properly, they can bring out more detail and overall better audio quality, but I wouldn't recommend getting a DAC and amp if you don't have good headphones

I am not saying at all that it would be a waste to get a DAC if your onboard has no issues. I am rather saying through out the post, that you should think about what kind of headphones (or speakers for that sake) you have and that it isn't worth spending money on a DAC and amp for let's say SHP9500 if your onboard doesn't have any flaws, because you could have gotten headphones that were better if you had spend the extra cash on the headphone instead. I would generally only recommend spending money on a DAC and amp when you reach headphones like K612, DT880, HD 600 and upwards in quality.

 

A DAC isn't going to make your speakers a lot better, like making them sound like a whole different set of speakers that cost a lot more. Like your speakers wouldn't suddenly turn into some that can compete with a set of JBL LSR 305, but you might hear a detail you didn't hear before or maybe a guitar sounds a bit better.

 

The overall improvements you would see is that the sound might become a bit wider, more refined sound and details might become a bit more noticeable, but the worse gear you have the less difference you will notice. 

 

I can't tell you if it is worth it for you, that is only something you can decide. 

[pommedeterror007]

Thought on getting an amp for a pair of V Moda m100s?

[Dackzy]

2 hours ago, pommedeterror007 said:

Thought on getting an amp for a pair of V Moda m100s?

Meh, not that good of an idea. They are pretty easy to drive and they don't really scale. At most get like a schiit fulla 2.