Before you buy amp and DAC + recommendations.

[Dackzy]

16 minutes ago, Lazmarr said:

Yes, that is indeed true; the majority of lower-end integrated amps and some mid ones are a mixed bag. However as previously mentioned, the mid-to-high-end Marantz amps are excellent as headphone amps.

That is something I don't have much time for unfortunately, as much as I would love to. Although speakers are a much more subjective thing and require users to demo them out for themselves; as speakers sound very different to each other.

I own the Marantz PM6006 and it's a much more musical amplifier, suiting more lively and musical speakers; coupled with speakers like the Dali Zensor 1s (or any Dali speakers really) it is quite a joy to listen to  However as mentioned before the sound of Amp+speakers are subjective.

I've no doubt a € 399,00 - € 479,00 (£350 - £400) DAC/Amp would perform MUCH better than an integrated amp of lesser price; but that's not to say integrated amps can't hold up. If you're going to spend that much, you might as well buy separates. 

1

The thing is the R-N500 and PM6006 which is about the 450-550€ mark and I have found that to be about the max a lot of people are willing to spend and they both loose to a 400€ combo for headphones. If you have an integrated amp or receiver that is decent quality, then sure use it for your headphones, just don't go around telling people that it is better than a dedicated amp for headphones. They also often have a way higher noise floor...

 

I wonder why do you have a PM6006 when your speakers are the Zensor 1s? it just seems a bit odd to me, I know that the amp is really important, but paying more than the speakers cost for an integrated amp just seems a bit weird to me, ofc our pricing of things are different, so you might have paid the same for the PM6006 as you paid for the Zensor 1s.

 

If I were to make a list of good integrated amps and receiver, then most of the budget stuff will be Yamaha and then some Marantz when we start hitting the 400-500€ mark and little to no Onkyo (because their stereo receivers and integrated amps aren't that good) and ofc some NAD when we start looking at the 500€ +.

Marantz is also a bit weird, their things are high quality and all that, but they lack features like a dedicated sub pre out, which a lot of people would like to have.

 

I would generally recommend getting separate speaker amp and headphone amp, for as high quality as possible, but then again it is rare that we see people asking for integrated speaker amps or receivers, because a lot of people just use powered speakers, so I don't think the use case for such list would be very big.

 

[Lazmarr]

6 minutes ago, SSL said:

 

I assumed that your "suggestion" was just for headphones, since this thread is all about headphone systems, implicitly.

 

As for integrated amps having DACs and headphone outs that rival dedicated devices, I'm sorry but you'll need to back that up with more than vague appeals to "are said to".  Also, a flagship chip does not a TOTL DAC make. Implementation is important as well.

 

Finally, dedicated power amplifiers definitely do not have headphone amp circuity shoe-horned in.

"Before you buy amp and DAC + recommendations." does not implicitly state it's "all about headphone systems".

Did I ever state that they rival dedicated devices? No. In fact I said the entirely opposite. Stating that integrated amps will of course be outperformed by separates and devices that cost in excess of four times as much; and I went as far as to say that if you're going to spend so much then you might as well purchase separates. However I did state that they can hold up, meaning that they can do all the things a DAC/Amp can do; and depending on what you get then they can do it excellently.

You could use Google and check for yourself that some (depending on make and model) integrated amplifiers perform well as DAC/Amps.

I did not mention anywhere anything to do with dedicated power amplifiers. I would not expect them to have any other circuitry, headphone circuitry, in them other than to amplify the inputs ready for the speaker outputs.

I will say it again "please read things before spewing crap".

[Lazmarr]

12 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

The thing is the R-N500 and PM6006 which is about the 450-550€ mark and I have found that to be about the max a lot of people are willing to spend and they both loose to a 400€ combo for headphones. If you have an integrated amp or receiver that is decent quality, then sure use it for your headphones, just don't go around telling people that it is better than a dedicated amp for headphones. They also often have a way higher noise floor...

 

I wonder why do you have a PM6006 when your speakers are the Zensor 1s? it just seems a bit odd to me, I know that the amp is really important, but paying more than the speakers cost for an integrated amp just seems a bit weird to me, ofc our pricing of things are different, so you might have paid the same for the PM6006 as you paid for the Zensor 1s.

 

If I were to make a list of good integrated amps and receiver, then most of the budget stuff will be Yamaha and then some Marantz when we start hitting the 400-500€ mark and little to no Onkyo (because their stereo receivers and integrated amps aren't that good) and ofc some NAD when we start looking at the 500€ +.

Marantz is also a bit weird, their things are high quality and all that, but they lack features like a dedicated sub pre out, which a lot of people would like to have.

 

I would generally recommend getting separate speaker amp and headphone amp, for as high quality as possible, but then again it is rare that we see people asking for integrated speaker amps or receivers, because a lot of people just use powered speakers, so I don't think the use case for such list would be very big.

 

I purchased my PM6006 for £279, approximately €350. Oh no I was never telling anyone that they are better than dedicated headphone amps/DACs. Only that they are worth considering since some of them have very high quality components and are capable of driving headphones.

The Zensor 1s were £179 when I purchased them. I purchased the PM6006 as it had all the connections I needed, had quality internals (specifically the DAC), and excellent reviews as a headphone amp. Although I was wanting to purchase the PM7005 but they were not being sold anywhere. I decided on the Zensor 1s due to size constraints and demoed them, finding they sound extremely good with the PM6006. The Zensor 3s only had a little more bass really, in comparison to the Zensor 1. For such small speakers the Z1s have such a great soundstage and kick.

I totally agree. I was looking at the Onkyo but found the quality was a little off on them. The Yamaha were nice but just not as good as the Marantz. For them Marantz stereo receivers, a lot of people say that getting higher quality speakers are better than lesser quality speakers and a sub. Although their high-end stereo amps and AV/receivers do have pre-outs.

I only mentioned it because I seen that they were rarely mentioned, if at all; and it leaves the option to upgrade from powered speakers if wanted.  
The downside to integrated amps is that they are quite large and hefty and people may not have much space.

The list would be quite extensive haha

[Dackzy]

5 minutes ago, Lazmarr said:

I purchased my PM6006 for £279, approximately €350. Oh no I was never telling anyone that they are better than dedicated headphone amps/DACs. Only that they are worth considering since some of them have very high quality components and are capable of driving headphones.

The Zensor 1s were £179 when I purchased them. I purchased the PM6006 as it had all the connections I needed, had quality internals (specifically the DAC), and excellent reviews as a headphone amp. Although I was wanting to purchase the PM7005 but they were not being sold anywhere. I decided on the Zensor 1s due to size constraints and demoed them, finding they sound extremely good with the PM6006. The Zensor 3s only had a little more bass really, in comparison to the Zensor 1. For such small speakers the Z1s have such a great soundstage and kick.

I totally agree. I was looking at the Onkyo but found the quality was a little off on them. The Yamaha were nice but just not as good as the Marantz. For them Marantz stereo receivers, a lot of people say that getting higher quality speakers are better than lesser quality speakers and a sub. Although their high-end stereo amps and AV/receivers do have pre-outs.

I only mentioned it because I seen that they were rarely mentioned, if at all; and it leaves the option to upgrade from powered speakers if wanted.  
The downside to integrated amps is that they are quite large and hefty and people may not have much space.

The list would be quite extensive haha

5

Yeah I know that you didn't say that they are better than a dedicated headphone amp/DAC, just pointed out that some do.  

In the more budget range with Yamaha and Marantz I think they are the same quality, but their signatures are just a bit different. A lot of audio websites seem to prefer Yamaha when we talk the low budget 300€ and down and then mixed when we reach the 500€ mark, but at the 700€ mark, Marantz wins. I was so close to buying a Marantz amp, but they didn't have a sub out before I reached a fairly high price class and then I heard the R N500 with the Bronze 2 and I bought it the second I heard how spacious the sound was with lots of details, yes I am a detail whore  

 

Yes good speakers are better than meh speakers + a sub, good thing I have good speakers and a okay sub  I need to upgrade my sub at some point to a REL Tzero, it might not seem impressive on specs with only a 6.5" driver, but IRL it is insane for its size.

[RGProductions]

Or you're like me and bought a business class board that sounds like crap. Seriously, my $50 dac/amp combo blows this thing out of the water, even on 668bs!

[SSL]

5 hours ago, Lazmarr said:

"Before you buy amp and DAC + recommendations." does not implicitly state it's "all about headphone systems".

Did I ever state that they rival dedicated devices? No. In fact I said the entirely opposite. Stating that integrated amps will of course be outperformed by separates and devices that cost in excess of four times as much; and I went as far as to say that if you're going to spend so much then you might as well purchase separates. However I did state that they can hold up, meaning that they can do all the things a DAC/Amp can do; and depending on what you get then they can do it excellently.

You could use Google and check for yourself that some (depending on make and model) integrated amplifiers perform well as DAC/Amps.

I did not mention anywhere anything to do with dedicated power amplifiers. I would not expect them to have any other circuitry, headphone circuitry, in them other than to amplify the inputs ready for the speaker outputs.

I will say it again "please read things before spewing crap".

K. I think we got off to a bad start. My only point is that an integrated amp is not a good value for someone who is currently using only headphones. Yes, there are some that are good for headphones. That's more an exception than a rule.

 

If you have experience with a particularly good receiver or integrated amp, let us know. Because vague claims about quality components is just not enough.

[acercon]

On 2/24/2017 at 8:25 PM, SSL said:

 

An adapter.

 

That's called a sound card. I do not know of any sound cards in the $30 range that have both a headphone amp and separate line out for speakers.

 

Put the unit on the floor behind your desk if you really have no space. Run an extension cable if you have to.

 

Ok, so whats the difference between a sound card and a amp/dac? Does a sound card contain a amp and dac?

[anothertom]

13 minutes ago, acercon said:

Ok, so whats the difference between a sound card and a amp/dac? Does a sound card contain a amp and dac?

The form factor. A soundcard implies using a PCI or PCIe interface and is therefore internal. A DAC/amp or separate DAC and amp implies that it is external, usually using a USB connection to the DAC then either an internal amplifier or line level analogue outputs to the amp.

[acercon]

2 minutes ago, anothertom said:

The form factor. A soundcard implies using a PCI or PCIe interface and is therefore internal. A DAC/amp or separate DAC and amp implies that it is external, usually using a USB connection to the DAC then either an internal amplifier or line level analogue outputs to the amp.

 

ok I see, what are the advantage/ disadvantage of both? or is it just what you want personally 

[anothertom]

19 minutes ago, acercon said:

ok I see, what are the advantage/ disadvantage of both? or is it just what you want personally 

The quick version:

 

Soundcards are more likely to have 5.1 or 7.1 outputs, don't take up desk space and will likely also have a mic or line input. They are more likely to suffer from electromagnetic interference from proximity to other circuits, can have less powerful amps/lower quality DACs.

 

A dedicated DAC will have less chance of interference, can have better quality chips, some are upgradable, can have multiple switchable inputs (USB/optical/coaxial), can have better (cleaner) power supplies than in a pc. But won't have input options (it would become an audio interface), takes up space)

 

A dedicated amp is sometimes combined with a DAC (e.g. fulla 2) or can be separate. A separate DAC and amp is useful for hi-fi systems where a headphone amp would have no chance trying to drive a pair of speakers, and can be better suited in terms of power and impedance to an individual pair of headphones.

 

Now someone can point out something obvious I forgot...

[spwath]

I say you trim down your list.

Even you said some things bad:

About the o2:

it doesn’t offer a great value anymore, but it is still a decent amp for the price.

About the darkvoice:

This is an amp that doesn’t really do anything impressive, but it offers a decent value

 

That o2 comment is confusing.

 

I say you should get rid of some of the SMSL garbage, especially in the dac area.

And add modi multibit.

 

But just trim down the list, too much there.

[Dackzy]

7 hours ago, spwath said:

I say you trim down your list.

Even you said some things bad:

About the o2:

it doesn’t offer a great value anymore, but it is still a decent amp for the price.

About the darkvoice:

This is an amp that doesn’t really do anything impressive, but it offers a decent value

 

That o2 comment is confusing.

 

I say you should get rid of some of the SMSL garbage, especially in the dac area.

And add modi multibit.

 

But just trim down the list, too much there.

4

Let me clear this up for you. This list is for everyone, this means that there will be people who cannot get Schiit or some other brand, that is why there are so many options.

 

I don't see how those comments are confusing. Just because something doesn't offer a great value anymore, doesn't mean that it is bad for the price, I even say on the o2 that you should only look at it if you can't get a magni 2.

 

The darkvoice has its place on the list, because it often comes on massdrop or on sale. It isn't great, but it is decent/good for the price and again I also say in the text that "I would recommend only picking this up when it is on massdrop or just go with a Vali 2 or Valhalla 2."

 

I don't want to make a list that is 90% or even 100% Schiit, I want to have a list that gives a wide selection with DACs and amps that offer a good value.  There have been plenty of threads where people haven't been able to get Schiit and that is why I justify recommending things that doesn't offer a great value anymore or ever did.

[MR_D_1]

Excellent guide

 

only thing that is left out that should be reviewed in basic is connectivity options.  (Example: some speakers don not have 1/4 inch jacks and only +/- terminals. etc...)

[Dackzy]

4 minutes ago, MR_D_1 said:

Excellent guide

 

only thing that is left out that should be reviewed in basic is connectivity options.  (Example: some speakers don not have 1/4 inch jacks and only +/- terminals. etc...)

 

well, this is mainly for headphones. Sure you can use a DAC with speakers, but then those speakers would either have to be powered speakers which more often than not have RCA or you hook the DAC up to a speaker amp/receiver with RCA's. 

[MR_D_1]

3 hours ago, Dackzy said:

well, this is mainly for headphones. Sure you can use a DAC with speakers, but then those speakers would either have to be powered speakers which more often than not have RCA or you hook the DAC up to a speaker amp/receiver with RCA's. 

that was just an example for an amp. let me try again as my example may not have been clear. what if you own a player of some sort (cd player)that uses RCA to send signal to an amp, and you want to be able to listen to your pc audio also on the same amp that you will purchase to drive your headphones, if you chose an amp with only 1 set of RCA inputs, you will have to unplug one device to plug the other when needed or pick an amp with multiple input connections with a switch to toggle from one or the other.

 

maybe you use all your usb ports for other peripherals your are not willing to let go, then you would like a dac with optical as you have that unused output on your motherboard

 

etc....

[Dackzy]

18 hours ago, MR_D_1 said:

that was just an example for an amp. let me try again as my example may not have been clear. what if you own a player of some sort (cd player)that uses RCA to send signal to an amp, and you want to be able to listen to your pc audio also on the same amp that you will purchase to drive your headphones, if you chose an amp with only 1 set of RCA inputs, you will have to unplug one device to plug the other when needed or pick an amp with multiple input connections with a switch to toggle from one or the other.

 

maybe you use all your usb ports for other peripherals your are not willing to let go, then you would like a dac with optical as you have that unused output on your motherboard

 

etc....

TBH I think that it is really up to the person that is interested in it to check that up, I have already written which amps that allow for a pre out to a powered speaker or to another amp. Plus I have written the inputs of each DAC.

I can look at it later when exams are over and if enough people wants me to write the different outputs from the DACs and different inputs to the amps, then I will do it.

[MatsNorway]

I am curious about buying a DAC/or some other device as i run my PC to the TV and then to the Stereo via optical.

 

Now i am aware that a DAC stands for Digital to Analog Converter. But surely there is something that can be done with the output on the digital side coming from the PC.

Say some upscaling of sorts. Perhaps a soundcard of some sort can fiddle with the sound? Increase the dynamic range etc.

 

I am just asking because i have limited space in the future and would like to stuff it into the PC cabinet. Would be nice to have something on a PCI lane etc.

Please point me in the right direction.

 

 

[spwath]

2 hours ago, MatsNorway said:

I am curious about buying a DAC/or some other device as i run my PC to the TV and then to the Stereo via optical.

 

Now i am aware that a DAC stands for Digital to Analog Converter. But surely there is something that can be done with the output on the digital side coming from the PC.

Say some upscaling of sorts. Perhaps a soundcard of some sort can fiddle with the sound? Increase the dynamic range etc.

 

I am just asking because i have limited space in the future and would like to stuff it into the PC cabinet. Would be nice to have something on a PCI lane etc.

Please point me in the right direction.

 

 

 I'm confused as to what you want. What inputs/outputs and functionality? 

[MatsNorway]

Well.. At no point today is there any analog signal going into the receiver/CD player.. Where do i add this magical DAC/konverter people talk about.

[Guest]

On 2017-05-18 at 9:37 AM, Dackzy said:

TBH I think that it is really up to the person that is interested in it to check that up, I have already written which amps that allow for a pre out to a powered speaker or to another amp. Plus I have written the inputs of each DAC.

I can look at it later when exams are over and if enough people wants me to write the different outputs from the DACs and different inputs to the amps, then I will do it.

I respectfully agree with Dackzy. Here's how I started to educate myself...

...the mother of FAQ threads....

Thread about DAC, ack, no whack.

Anyway, my 2 cents. Btw -- yes, I'd indeed be interested in an article about inputs & outputs. Thanks, eh.

[Dackzy]

3 hours ago, PrometheanCat2 said:

I respectfully agree with Dackzy. Here's how I started to educate myself...

...the mother of FAQ threads....

Thread about DAC, ack, no whack.

Anyway, my 2 cents. Btw -- yes, I'd indeed be interested in an article about inputs & outputs. Thanks, eh.

okay I will update it with inputs and outputs once all of my exams are over, plus add a couple of other things.

[Max_Settings]

Hey @Dackzy I just bought a pair of HD 6XXs and I am looking for an AMP for under $200. I read your post and I could get the Dark Voice 336SE because it is on Massdrop. Also there is this AMP I would like to get your opinion on this amp https://www.massdrop.com/buy/little-dot-i-headphone-amp

 

What AMP would you recommend for HD 6XXs for $200 or under.

[Dackzy]

9 minutes ago, Max_Settings said:

Hey @Dackzy I just bought a pair of HD 6XXs and I am looking for an AMP for under $200. I read your post and I could get the Dark Voice 336SE because it is on Massdrop. Also there is this AMP I would like to get your opinion on this amp https://www.massdrop.com/buy/little-dot-i-headphone-amp

 

What AMP would you recommend for HD 6XXs for $200 or under.

well you probably first need to find out if you want to make their sound even warmer or not, if you want to make them warmer then I would probably say Dark voice 336SE or a Vali 2 if you just want them a little bit warmer/try tube, if you don't want them warmer then probably just get a magni 2 or if you can swing it then a AUNE X7S. 

[Max_Settings]

5 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

well you probably first need to find out if you want to make their sound even warmer or not, if you want to make them warmer then I would probably say Dark voice 336SE or a Vali 2 if you just want them a little bit warmer/try tube, if you don't want them warmer then probably just get a magni 2 or if you can swing it then a AUNE X7S. 

To be honest I am not sure. From what I have heard online, most people say the 600 series sounds better with a warmer tube AMP, but I am not 100% sure.

[TVwazhere]

This seems to be a good thread to ask

 

Looked at many DAC/AMP combos In December and came across this SMSL M6 which had really good reviews. I've had no problems with it and the HD6XX, I just want to make sure I'm not getting an un-optimal experience