Jump to content

Lens to achieve "Super 35" film look on Canon 70D (APS-C sensor)?

Go to solution Solved by ALwin,
8 minutes ago, A-Furry-Peanut said:

Thank you so much for all your help, the videos you provided have also been of great information!

If it's not too much trouble, any more videos to help show me what can be achieved would be amazing. :)

 

Follow some of the channels of the videos I posted.

 

Like this channel which has some nice videos covering cinematography over the decades.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL5kBJmBUVFLYBDiSiK1VDw

 

Other channels

https://www.youtube.com/user/watchredgiantfilms

https://www.youtube.com/user/DSLRguide

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCx5KB2QDUDH-o8PFnF3yJCQ

 

Vimeo film school has tons of resources

https://vimeo.com/blog/category/video-school

I'v been reading almost everywhere that I need a 28mm lens with an APS-C sensor since it's crop factor is similar to that of a super 35 sensor. 
But upon further research I found that a super 35 has a crop of 1.4 so 1.4 x 28mm = 39.2mm; as for APS-C it would be 1.6 x 28mm = 44.8mm,
but what if I chose a 25mm lens for APS-C so therefore 1.6 x 25mm = 40mm, 
or a 24mm lens -> 1.6 x 24mm = 38.4mm
So with those calculations wouldn't it make more sense to get a 25mm or a 24mm since they come closer to Super 35's "39.2mm" thingy?
As for why many articles are using 28mm it's because many critically acclaimed directors said that 28mm was their favorite lens to use while using the Super 35mm.
Also I know that APS-C can have a crop factor of 1.5x but since I am using a 70D I'm going by its crop factor of 1.6x

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

you are mixing up a lots of things ...

24mm or 28mm ... doesn't really matter.

to get a "film-like" look, there are things MUCH more important than focal length

Mini-Desktop: NCASE M1 Build Log
Mini-Server: M350 Build Log

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, MrSuperb said:

you are mixing up a lots of things ...

24mm or 28mm ... doesn't really matter.

to get a "film-like" look, there are things MUCH more important than focal length

Yes, I understand that. However, one of the factors I came across was camera lenses and have been stumped on that matter. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, A-Furry-Peanut said:

Yes, I understand that. However, one of the factors I came across was camera lenses and have been stumped on that matter. 

again 28mm or 24mm ... Doesn't really matter.

To get close to 28mm on super35mm you need something like a 25.2mm lens.

But the difference between 28mm, 25.2mm and 24mm is minimal.

There are other (far more important factors) to consider when choosing a specific lens. Also you might realize, that many "super35mm" digital cinema cameras actually are a bit smaller or bigger than super35 specs.

Mini-Desktop: NCASE M1 Build Log
Mini-Server: M350 Build Log

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Super 35mm sensor size is close to APS-C.  You take into account crop factors when you want to translate field of view to 35mm (photo) film size field of views.

 

The film look has little to do with the focal length of the lens you choose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_look

 

There are some nice online tutorials/videos for HDSLR film making, Vimeo has an entire section dedicated for that.

https://vimeo.com/blog/category/video-school

Guide: DSLR or Video camera?, Guide: Film/Photo makers' useful resources, Guide: Lenses, a quick primer

Nikon D4, Nikon D800E, Fuji X-E2, Canon G16, Gopro Hero 3+, iPhone 5s. Hasselblad 500C/M, Sony PXW-FS7

ICT Consultant, Photographer, Video producer, Scuba diver and underwater explorer, Nature & humanitarian documentary producer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a nice short video that explains a bit about achieving the film look with a HDSLR.

 

 

 

Guide: DSLR or Video camera?, Guide: Film/Photo makers' useful resources, Guide: Lenses, a quick primer

Nikon D4, Nikon D800E, Fuji X-E2, Canon G16, Gopro Hero 3+, iPhone 5s. Hasselblad 500C/M, Sony PXW-FS7

ICT Consultant, Photographer, Video producer, Scuba diver and underwater explorer, Nature & humanitarian documentary producer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

First off, don't use the word "film" because film and digital are totally different and you will never get digital to look anything like film. Now, there are many things that go into getting the Cinematic look you want. As everyone only seems to be able to link you to things that you can read, I'll be quick.

 

First and foremost, by far the most important part of getting cinema quality video, is the glass you use. The lens are far more important than the camera. If you're on a budget, then a cheap camera, and expensive lens is always what you should do, NOT a cheap lens. Never go with cheap lens. EVER.

 

Lighting is also extremely important during the principal photography. I'd say it's definitely 2nd in importance behind the lens.

 

You can only do so much in post. Most people are wrong, I watched that video posted and honestly I cringed. Yes, post is very important, and yes you can greatly improve the look and feel of your video. If good lens, and good lighting aren't available, then color grading is what you want to focus on in post. You can only go so far with it though.

 

Also, it really comes down to what you think you can afford, obtain, etc. If you're good with lighting, I'd say spend more on lighting. Otherwise, just stick with getting a good lens, it will always always always make the difference.

 

Lens > Camera

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Andrewf said:

First off, don't use the word "film" because film and digital are totally different and you will never get digital to look anything like film. Now, there are many things that go into getting the Cinematic look you want. As everyone only seems to be able to link you to things that you can read, I'll be quick.

 

What are you on about?  There are ways to get digital photos or video to appear as if they were recorded using film.  But not every step of the process is done on camera.  Film grain can be duplicated in post processing, not through the digital sensor's ISO.

 

The "film" look requires a lot of work, and certain steps required to achieve it are done on-camera and on the set.  The rest is done in post processing.

 

There are plugins that help achieve the "film" look for both photo and video.

DxO FilmPack mimics the look and feel of many popular photo film stock.

RedGiant Magic Bulletlooks is a plugin to help film makers achieve various film looks for video.

FilmConvert is another plugin.

 

6 hours ago, Andrewf said:

You can only do so much in post. Most people are wrong, I watched that video posted and honestly I cringed. Yes, post is very important, and yes you can greatly improve the look and feel of your video. If good lens, and good lighting aren't available, then color grading is what you want to focus on in post. You can only go so far with it though.

Recording with low-medium bit rate HDSLR cameras does not produce files that can be heavily edited in post.  Additionally, most people seem to record video with HDSLRs using default or common settings instead of using settings that would give them a flat image profile that is easier and better for editing in post.

 

As for color grading, it is essential whether good lighting was used or not.  Color grading is not meant as a substitute for a bad lens or bad lighting, it is used regardless to modify the look and feel of the story being told in the film.

 

 

 

Guide: DSLR or Video camera?, Guide: Film/Photo makers' useful resources, Guide: Lenses, a quick primer

Nikon D4, Nikon D800E, Fuji X-E2, Canon G16, Gopro Hero 3+, iPhone 5s. Hasselblad 500C/M, Sony PXW-FS7

ICT Consultant, Photographer, Video producer, Scuba diver and underwater explorer, Nature & humanitarian documentary producer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

https://library.creativecow.net/articles/graham_doug/film_look.php

 

Getting the film look using digital requires a lot of work, but it CAN be done.  The following quote from the article gets you 90% of the way to getting a proper film look.  Along with the video in my previous comment regarding frame rates, shutter speeds, camera control, etc.

Quote

In The Beginning, there was light. Light is the start of the whole image-making process, and to get the best possible “film look” you should start here, before a single photon reaches your CCDs. Light your video scene like a film setup…but take into account video’s narrower contrast range. Note how many films are lit “low key”, with a great deal of shadowing in the picture, and only a few highlights. This is different from most video work, which is lit “high key”, with few shadows. Pay attention to making shadows with your lighting setups.

She’s So Shallow. Many film shots have a very shallow depth of field, throwing the background and/or foreground out of focus. This is harder to achieve with a camcorder, but if you use a neutral density filter, open up your lens (go to a low f-stop number), and work at the telephoto end of your zoom range, you can get a shallower depth of field.

Softly…Softly. Video cameras, especially consumer camcorders, add a lot of electronic sharpening to the image, which contributes to the “video look”. Reduce the sharpening done by your camera, if you have an adjustment for it. If not (or in addition), use a softening filter, such as a Tiffen Black Pro Mist. Low strengths are generally more useful, such as _ or 1. Some shooters like to stretch a piece cut from a pair of panty hose between the rear of their lens and the camera body, for the same purpose.

That Warm Glow. Film often has a very “warm” tone to it, as opposed to video, which can look quite “cool”. This is more or less pronounced, depending on which camera you’re using. You can warm up the picture by white balancing through a slightly blue-tinted gel, or using a blue-tinted calibration card such as those made by WarmCards (http://www.warmcards.com)

On The Big Screen. Shooting for widescreen display can make your video look more “theatrical”. Many camcorders do have a “widescreen” mode, but most of these simply mask off part of the imaging area, costing you resolution. Unless your camera is specifically designed to shoot widescreen video, like the Sony DSR-500, get an anamorphic lens adapter to “squish” your image, then “stretch” it out in editing.

Steady As She Goes. One hallmark of film images is the steadiness of the camera. Most films are shot with elaborate camera supports – tripods, cranes, dollies, and Steadycam rigs. The point of all this is to avoid calling attention to the camera itself by its motion. You should strive for the same sort of steady shots. The MTV “hand held shakycam” look is not very “filmic”. While we’re at it, don’t zoom. Film camera lenses don’t generally have a zoom ability, so zooming is a giveaway that the material was shot by a video camera.

Sounds Good To Me. Good audio is half, or even more, of a good video or film. If you don’t think so, try watching your favorite film with the sound turned off. Filmmakers pay a great deal of attention to audio, and the final audio mix has very little to do with what was captured during the shooting of the film. There is dialog re-recording, Foley (sound effects), music, “sweetening”, and mixing.

Video Cameras With a “Film Look” Mode. You can use all of the above tips no matter what camera you’re shooting with. But some cameras can help you get closer to a “film look” via technology. In the prosumer/low end pro arena, the top contenders in this area are the Canon XL1s and GL2, with their 30 frame per second “Frame Movie Mode”, and the Panasonic AG-DVX-100, with its various 24 frame per second progressive (24p) modes. These cameras produce image sequences that are closer to the “look” of 24 fps film than ordinary 60 fields per second, interlaced NTSC video.

We’ll Fix It In Post. If you haven’t done some or all of the things we’ve already talked about to get closer to a “film look”, then tweaking the footage in post production isn’t going to do you a whole lot of good. Think of it as the “final touch” rather than the main event. There are several “film look” software packages available, either stand-alone programs or plugins for After Effects, such as “Grain Surgery”. But all of these are relatively expensive. Here’s a technique developed by Shawn Bockoven, a video engineer and filmmaker in Sacramento, that’ll only cost you a little rendering time. The description below is a short outline of the technique. For a full run-down, check out this link.

First, color correct your footage. If you have Final Cut Pro, you have a handy gamma correction filter that works wonders with one click. Otherwise, use your NLE’s color correction tools to give a warm look, add a bit of saturation, and extend the range of tones in the low end (shadows and blacks). When you’re satisfied, make a copy of this clip. De-interlace the copy. Place the copy directly above the original clip in the timeline, and apply a transparency of between 30-50% or so.

Edit It Like Film. With the increasing use of CGI and digital effects, the world of film is beginning to see a few more transitions, other than the traditional cut and the occasional dissolve. But the cut is still king. You should use it for almost all your edits, if you want to “look like film”.

All right, I’m done. I hope these tips will help you to shoot video that has more of a “film look”. Good luck at the next film festival!


 

Guide: DSLR or Video camera?, Guide: Film/Photo makers' useful resources, Guide: Lenses, a quick primer

Nikon D4, Nikon D800E, Fuji X-E2, Canon G16, Gopro Hero 3+, iPhone 5s. Hasselblad 500C/M, Sony PXW-FS7

ICT Consultant, Photographer, Video producer, Scuba diver and underwater explorer, Nature & humanitarian documentary producer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a nice video showing how to achieve the remaining 10% to make digital match film.

http://philipbloom.net/blog/filmconvert/

 

Guide: DSLR or Video camera?, Guide: Film/Photo makers' useful resources, Guide: Lenses, a quick primer

Nikon D4, Nikon D800E, Fuji X-E2, Canon G16, Gopro Hero 3+, iPhone 5s. Hasselblad 500C/M, Sony PXW-FS7

ICT Consultant, Photographer, Video producer, Scuba diver and underwater explorer, Nature & humanitarian documentary producer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Andrewf said:

First off, don't use the word "film" because film and digital are totally different and you will never get digital to look anything like film. 

Have you ever heard about LUT?

May try a search in combination with Aviator

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, .spider. said:

Have you ever heard about LUT?

May try a search in combination with Aviator

 

17 hours ago, ALwin said:

Here's a nice video showing how to achieve the remaining 10% to make digital match film.

http://philipbloom.net/blog/filmconvert/

Lovely. Too bad our friend here is using a 70D. Not a RED. Are was referring to "you" as OP. Instead of talking theoretically, why not actually stay on topic and keep within the limits of our friend's capabilities. Even with the plugins you also mentioned, it's still easy to tell the difference, maybe because it's side-by-side, but I can tell. and honestly, they look awful, color is off, bad contrast, and the "film grain effect" just causes it to lose detail. Like I said before. You can only do so much to get your footage to look cinematic, especially in post. I personally would never use gimmicks to try to recreate film, just won't be the same. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Andrewf said:

Lovely. Too bad our friend here is using a 70D. Not a RED. Are was referring to "you" as OP. Instead of talking theoretically, why not actually stay on topic and keep within the limits of our friend's capabilities. Even with the plugins you also mentioned, it's still easy to tell the difference, maybe because it's side-by-side, but I can tell. and honestly, they look awful, color is off, bad contrast, and the "film grain effect" just causes it to lose detail. Like I said before. You can only do so much to get your footage to look cinematic, especially in post. I personally would never use gimmicks to try to recreate film, just won't be the same. 

You don't need a RED camera.  It can be done with a Canon.  Hollywood has been doing it for a few years now.  Digital offers a lot more flexibility and capability, especially as technology keeps advancing, than film ever could.  Just because you don't know how to do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

 

Film look doesn't even have to try to match the look of any particular film stock.  A DP doesn't have to try and match the look of the film recorded using a digital camera to the look of a film recorded using any Kodak, Fuji, Ilford, etc. film stock.  The main thing is: it has to work.

Guide: DSLR or Video camera?, Guide: Film/Photo makers' useful resources, Guide: Lenses, a quick primer

Nikon D4, Nikon D800E, Fuji X-E2, Canon G16, Gopro Hero 3+, iPhone 5s. Hasselblad 500C/M, Sony PXW-FS7

ICT Consultant, Photographer, Video producer, Scuba diver and underwater explorer, Nature & humanitarian documentary producer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 2/13/2016 at 0:45 AM, ALwin said:

Here's a nice video showing how to achieve the remaining 10% to make digital match film.

-snip-

http://philipbloom.net/blog/filmconvert/

 

Hi, thank you for your software recommendations! However, they are currently out of my budget, might there be any similar programs/plugins around $50?

I was looking at Magic Bullet Mojo (with academic discount), would you have any opinions on that program?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, A-Furry-Peanut said:

Hi, thank you for your software recommendations! However, they are currently out of my budget, might there be any similar programs/plugins around $50?

I was looking at Magic Bullet Mojo (with academic discount), would you have any opinions on that program?

You don't really need any of those plugins or software if you are on a budget.

 

Here are the things you should do and start with to get the "right" look and feel you want with your films.

 

Camera settings

  • If you want the film/cinematic motion blur, shoot 24/25 fps with a 180 degree shutter rule.  Basically the shutter speed is double your frame rate.  As photo cameras do not have a 1/48 shutter speed, use 1/50 for both 24fps and 25fps.
  • Keep in mind the 180 degree shutter rule is not set in stone, nor is using 24/25 fps.  However you want the entire film to use one specific frame rate throughout the entire length on the final output.  So if you use 24fps for your regular scenes, make sure that when you use 50/60fps to record other scenes, those other scenes were recorded with higher frame rate for the purpose of time remapping in post (slow motion).  You don't want your final film to run at 24 fps at certain parts and 60fps at other parts.  The final frame rate has to be consistent.  With shutter speed, you don't have to be consistent throughout the final film.  As long as you know why you chose to use a faster or slower shutter speed (to get the look you want).
  • Color profile in camera: turn everything to ZERO or minimum.  Photo cameras come with various picture styles like Standard, Neutral, Vivid, etc.  Go into one of those profiles and dial all the sliders to 0 or less.  This gives you a flat image when you record.  Flat images are much much better for editing and somewhat retain more detail than those which have some in-camera preset already applied.

Audio

  • Definitely use external microphones.  The only use I would have for in-camera mics on HDSLRs would be to record scratch tracks that will help me synchronize with higher quality clean audio from external recorders.
  • If you use directional shotgun mics, clip on mics, omni mics, etc. make sure you understand how their polar patterns work and play around with mic placement to get quality audio.  Understanding polar patterns, especially with directional mics, will help you figure out how to place the microphone to isolate the sound you want to record from sound you want to avoid.

Lighting

  • High ISO capability in the camera is no substitute for improper lighting.
  • High ISO capability of a camera can also be a bad idea if you want to film a night scene.  An alternative you can use is a technique called "Day for Night" where the footage is shot in day time or with a proper light setup and then edited in post to make it appear as if it was filmed at night time.  One of the reasons for this technique is digital camera high ISO noise can be ugly and hard to remove in post.  Hence better to film clean low noise footage and just edit in post.
  • Changing the camera ISO, shutter and lens aperture is also not a substitute for improper lighting.  Changing in-camera settings can alter the look and feel of your film, so if you do not want the look and feel to change and the film is underexposed, the only solution is to bring in more lighting.

 

Software

If you cannot afford to get Adobe Premiere/After Effects, I recommend you get DaVinci Resolve 12 which is free.  The recent version of DaVinci Resolve is no longer just a color grading tool, it has become a full fledged NLE.  Whilst using plugins and presets might make your workflow faster in color grading and trying to get the film look, if you cannot afford to buy those plugins and presets, DaVinci Resolve's color grading capabilities will help you get the look and feel you want manually.

 

In fact, even if you can afford Premiere Pro and After Effects, you can also include DaVinci Resolve in your workflow.

 

The videos I previously posted contain a lot of useful information.  If you want I can also post more stuff from channels that show you what can be achieved.  They can't go into full detail and tell you what to do because the settings they use for their examples might not be the same exact settings that work for your footage.

 

Finally: have patience, don't rush.  Rushing will get you nowhere.

 

 

 

Guide: DSLR or Video camera?, Guide: Film/Photo makers' useful resources, Guide: Lenses, a quick primer

Nikon D4, Nikon D800E, Fuji X-E2, Canon G16, Gopro Hero 3+, iPhone 5s. Hasselblad 500C/M, Sony PXW-FS7

ICT Consultant, Photographer, Video producer, Scuba diver and underwater explorer, Nature & humanitarian documentary producer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, ALwin said:

-snip-

Thank you so much for all your help, the videos you provided have also been of great information!

If it's not too much trouble, any more videos to help show me what can be achieved would be amazing. :)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, A-Furry-Peanut said:

Thank you so much for all your help, the videos you provided have also been of great information!

If it's not too much trouble, any more videos to help show me what can be achieved would be amazing. :)

 

Follow some of the channels of the videos I posted.

 

Like this channel which has some nice videos covering cinematography over the decades.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL5kBJmBUVFLYBDiSiK1VDw

 

Other channels

https://www.youtube.com/user/watchredgiantfilms

https://www.youtube.com/user/DSLRguide

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCx5KB2QDUDH-o8PFnF3yJCQ

 

Vimeo film school has tons of resources

https://vimeo.com/blog/category/video-school

Guide: DSLR or Video camera?, Guide: Film/Photo makers' useful resources, Guide: Lenses, a quick primer

Nikon D4, Nikon D800E, Fuji X-E2, Canon G16, Gopro Hero 3+, iPhone 5s. Hasselblad 500C/M, Sony PXW-FS7

ICT Consultant, Photographer, Video producer, Scuba diver and underwater explorer, Nature & humanitarian documentary producer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×