impedance Question

[Lutkeveld]

What a wonderful thread

 

The only thing I'd like to add:

Impedance determines how hard a headphone is to drive for the amp, since A=V/Ω

It doesn't take sensitivity into the equation. Higher sensitivity needs less power (voltage) for the same sound output.

If manufacturers gave their sensitivity in dB/Vrms this whole thread wouldn't have to exist. 

[LeeWonky]

What a wonderful thread

 

The only thing I'd like to add:

Impedance determines how hard a headphone is to drive for the amp, since A=V/Ω

It doesn't take sensitivity into the equation. Higher sensitivity needs less power (voltage) for the same sound output.

If manufacturers gave their sensitivity in dB/Vrms this whole thread wouldn't have to exist. 

So... how and why does an E10K struggle to drive an HE-500?

[Lutkeveld]

Read.

Difficult to drive electrically and difficult to drive acoustically are two different (but slightly related) things.

[LeeWonky]

Read.

Difficult to drive electrically and difficult to drive acoustically are two different (but slightly related) things.

Just wanted to double check.

But yes, do explain the difference between 

 

 

Difficult to drive electrically and difficult to drive acoustically

 

[SSL]

Do you even know what you're talking about? @SSL please confirm if this guy is trolling or an idiot.

 

He doesn't know what he's talking about. Taking just the Fiio, it has NEGATIVE gain in low gain mode, into ALL loads. Which means that it isn't actually amplifying anything, technically. However, it is still far more appropriate than line level because it has low output impedance and can actually deliver current into low impedance, low sensitivity loads.

 

because the he500 is 35 ohms so with in the boundaries of impedance of the amp while the hd600 are 300 ohm which are way off. So if you turned the he500 up with the amp you wouldnt lose the high frequencies but with the 600 you would. I shouldnt need to explain it its simple amplify maths and fundamental to decide what amp goes with what driver.

 

I've run a 600ohm headphone from a Fiio E10. There was no change in frequency response, and I'm not sure what calculation you're basing this conclusion on.

 

So... how and why does an E10K struggle to drive an HE-500?

The phrase "struggle to drive" is probably misleading. The E10k won't be able to drive the HE-500 louder than 105dB or so, which means that you are limited to that much dynamic range. If you want to be able to hit peaks in full dynamic range music of 110dB or more you'll need a more powerful amp.

 

How ever much shit I throw at @SSL his knowledge of headphones is incredibly vast and if he says something about headphone audio quality I would trust him, but then again his knowledge of the maths is some times scary but probably fine for headphone world.

My math is fine. If I had any idea at all of what math you've done up to this point I'd be able to explain it better. But I haven't actually seen any calculations.

[LeeWonky]

The phrase "struggle to drive" is probably misleading. The E10k won't be able to drive the HE-500 louder than 105dB or so, which means that you are limited to that much dynamic range. If you want to be able to hit peaks in full dynamic range music of 110dB or more you'll need a more powerful amp.

Well, I used that question to squeeze an answer out of him to see if he can actually make sense. Turns out... I was rather being too hopeful on that one. The reason I said "struggle" is because the E10K, if it were sentient, is trying its hardest... but no cigar. Mostly due to the lack of a better term.

Edited December 6, 2015 by LeeWonky

[LeeWonky]

To be honest, I don't see or hear the difference between:

Difficult to drive electrically and difficult to drive acoustically

It sounds like Head-fi's invading LTT. Impedance isn't the determining factor on how hard a headphone is to drive, its sensitivity! You know what sucks about math sometimes? If you use the wrong formula and wrong values for a problem, and translating that into practice, demonstration, basically an end-result, you're screwed.

[Lutkeveld]

@LeeWonky

It's a bit funny that you're saying that to me, but no blame: you can't keep track of everyone.

I've been one of the main people to bring math to the audio subsection of LTT. 

 

I have no problem with having a discussion, as long as it's not a yes/no discussion.

 

To explain my post:

Let's say we have two headphones:

1) High sensitivity, low impedance

2) Low sensitivity, high impedance

 

For the same voltage headphone 1 puts more stress on the amplifier (higher current flow due to lower impedance)

But since it's high sensitivity it doesn't need as much voltage to reach the same output. You get what I'm saying?

[LeeWonky]

-Snip_

You get what I'm saying?

Ye... no.

[Lutkeveld]

Ye... no.

 

I have no problem with having a discussion, as long as it's not a yes/no discussion.

 

k. bye

[LeeWonky]

k. bye

Welp, since you can't construct a post that properly explains your point (I don't mind reading a post that has a thousand words, provided it makes sense) concisely, let alone have a post that relates to what I'm asking about:

 

Difficult to drive electrically and difficult to drive acoustically

I have heavy doubts on your maths.

[Lutkeveld]

Can you point out what you think is wrong, why its wrong and what your take on it is. 

Nobody is always right. Maybe I'm wrong here, but you should also consider that you very well could be wrong.

[LeeWonky]

Can you point out what you think is wrong, why its wrong and what your take on it is. 

Nobody is always right. Maybe I'm wrong here, but you should also consider that you very well could be wrong.

What I'm wrong is how I interpreted your answer.

What you're at fault at is explaining the difference between:

 

Difficult to drive electrically and difficult to drive acoustically

And since you brought this up:

 

1) High sensitivity, low impedance

2) Low sensitivity, high impedance

What if this is the case?

1.) High sensitivity, high impedance

2.) Low sensitivity, low impedance

[Lutkeveld]

You're misquoting me

 

Difficult to drive electrically and difficult to drive acoustically are two different (but slightly related) things.

 

Difficult to drive electrically: low impedance

If you look from the amplifiers perspective sound output doesn't matter. An amp is a voltage source and lower impedance adds more stress due to the higher current.

 

Difficult to drive acoustically: low sensivity

A speaker with low sensitivity needs more power for the same output.

 

And I made the point:

"Higher sensitivity needs less power (voltage) for the same sound output"

And that's how the two are slightly related

 

Honestly, I'm not really enjoying this discussion. We could also agree to disagree.

[LeeWonky]

My replies are in red

 

You're misquoting me

 

 

Difficult to drive electrically: low impedance

If you look from the amplifiers perspective sound output doesn't matter. An amp is a voltage source and lower impedance adds more stress due to the higher current.

Adds stress to what? Don't you mean higher current adds stress to said object that has low impedance?
 

Difficult to drive acoustically: low sensivity

A speaker with low sensitivity needs more power for the same output.
 

 

If you said this earlier, it wouldn't really get to this point that much.

 

 

And I made the point:

"Higher sensitivity needs less power (voltage) for the same sound output"

And that's how the two are slightly related

So, does this still apply if a headphone has high sensitivity and high impedance? What about headphones with low sensitivity and low impedance?

 

Honestly, I'm not really enjoying this discussion. We could also agree to disagree.

Your call.

 

[spwath]

You're misquoting me

Difficult to drive electrically: low impedance

If you look from the amplifiers perspective sound output doesn't matter. An amp is a voltage source and lower impedance adds more stress due to the higher current.

Difficult to drive acoustically: low sensivity

A speaker with low sensitivity needs more power for the same output.

And I made the point:

"Higher sensitivity needs less power (voltage) for the same sound output"

And that's how the two are slightly related

Honestly, I'm not really enjoying this discussion. We could also agree to disagree.

Wouldn't high impedance be the difficult to drive electrically?

[Lutkeveld]

Nope. High impedance is low conductivity, so low current flow. Less current with equal voltage means lower power, thus lower load ('easier to drive'). But this is all from the amps perspective. The driver wants as much power as possible, because then itll produce more output. This is the whole acoustical VS electrical discussion I was having with leewonky.

[Rukey_Lob]

So sennheiser game zeros should work fine on the asus zonar U7?

[LeeWonky]

So sennheiser game zeros should work fine on the asus zonar U7?

Yes. 

[LeeWonky]

Nope. High impedance is low conductivity, so low current flow. Less current with equal voltage means lower power, thus lower load ('easier to drive'). But this is all from the amps perspective. The driver wants as much power as possible, because then itll produce more output. This is the whole acoustical VS electrical discussion I was having with leewonky.

Still haven't answered my question on:

1.) Low Sensitivity and Low Impedance.

2.) High Sensitivity and High Impedance.

[Lutkeveld]

Can somebody else explain him what's what?

 

Or if you agree with him: why I'm wrong.

[EndlessOyster]

So sennheiser game zeros should work fine on the asus zonar U7?

Yes but its not necessary unless you have dreadful on-board audio on your computer and I wouldnt recommend spending the money on it for a slight improvement.

[SSL]

Still haven't answered my question on:

1.) Low Sensitivity and Low Impedance.

2.) High Sensitivity and High Impedance.

 

If we hold voltage sensitivity constant and increase impedance, then we require: less power, less current

If we hold power sensitivity constant (thus necessarily changing voltage sensitivity) and increase impedance, then we require: more voltage, less current

 

A headphone with low sensitivity and low impedance will pose both an electrically and acoustically challenging load on the amplifier.

A headphone with high sensitivity and high impedance will do the opposite.