impedance Question

[EndlessOyster]

Do you even know what you're talking about? @SSL please confirm if this guy is trolling or an idiot.

I just did the maths for amplifiers infront of your eyes and informed that you amp cant power such a large impedance headphone. SSL wont help because he doesnt know the maths either since why in his first comment he said that the 150 max ohm is just manufacturer rubbish when in fact its the highest impedance you can have before the amp no longer increase the current.

Here are some helpful websites;

This one explains it really well http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1994_articles/oct94/impedance.html

So does this one (but doesnt look as nice) http://www.prestonelectronics.com/audio/Impedance.htm

This is the spec sheet for you amp http://www.fiio.net/en/products/27/parameters

And this is a simple calculator tool i used to prove me point http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/watt-volt-amp-calculator.htm

How about you do the maths your self and you then maybe realise that the amp is not powerful enough and is the reason why you get distortion.

[LeeWonky]

I just did the maths for amplifiers infront of your eyes and informed that you amp cant power such a large impedance headphone. SSL wont help because he doesnt know the maths either since why in his first comment he said that the 150 max ohm is just manufacturer rubbish when in fact its the highest impedance you can have before the amp no longer increase the current.

Here are some helpful websites;

This one explains it really well http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1994_articles/oct94/impedance.html

So does this one (but doesnt look as nice) http://www.prestonelectronics.com/audio/Impedance.htm

This is the spec sheet for you amp http://www.fiio.net/en/products/27/parameters

And this is a simple calculator tool i used to prove me point http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/watt-volt-amp-calculator.htm

How about you do the maths your self and you then maybe realise that the amp is not powerful enough and is the reason why you get distortion.

Read this: http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/290749-the-impedance-ballad-image-heavy/

 

 

You can do all the math you want. Theres still a difference between calculation and application.

[EndlessOyster]

This has probably been answered many times but i wanted to sign up and give the Linus Forums a shot seen as reddit can be toxic.

 

Can i run 150 impedance headphones such as Sennheiser Game Zero on a DAC such as the Zonar U7 that has a max of 150 impedance?  I'm new to the audio scene and i need to know the basics on this.

 

Thanks, Luke

And here comes the correct answer to the OPs question

your headphone will only just benefit from the amplification in the DAC/AMP.

The DAC probably wont benefit you a huge amount if you have a reasonably modern/good quality audio built into your computer.

So if you do have poor audio system built into your computer get the DAC if not I advise you dont buy this because the audio quality improvement wouldnt be a huge amount and not that good value for the amount you would be spending.

[EndlessOyster]

Read this: http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/290749-the-impedance-ballad-image-heavy/

 

 

You can do all the math you want. Theres still a difference between calculation and application.

Yes and you told me that you get distortion and the maths tells me you would so, actually the maths is correct on paper and real life.

[LeeWonky]

Yes and you told me that you get distortion and the maths tells me you would so, actually the maths is correct on paper and real life.

Thats because I'm not even pushing my amp, how can I distort it when I'm not even pushing it? The HD600 is already damn sensitive that I don't need to push it any higher to the levels you consider that would "break the amp" and all that nonsense. Your maths are either outdated or untested. Would've been correct a decade or two ago, but not so much today.

[EndlessOyster]

Thats because I'm not even pushing my amp, how can I distort it when I'm not even pushing it? The HD600 is already damn sensitive that I don't need to push it any higher to the levels you consider that would "break the amp" and all that nonsense. Your maths are either outdated or untested. Would've been correct a decade or two ago, but not so much today.

That is true if you dont push it wont distort so in the case if you never turn it up it wont, and sicne you said it does manage to be loud enough for your self it be fine, in your case. So fair enough my point is a bit pointless in your case.

But the maths is still correct and the reason why you cant turn it up is because the amp cause distortion because it just cant do 600 ohms. My point still stand though that the amp is amplifying anything and even at max gain you reduced the signal by half so your not benefiting from using that amp. 

Im sorry this took so long to get to the end point, that the manufacturer maximum impedance is there for a reason and it is because the amp doesnt amplify anything after 150ohms. 

[LeeWonky]

That is true if you dont push it wont distort so in the case if you never turn it up it wont, and sicne you said it does manage to be loud enough for your self it be fine, in your case. So fair enough my point is a bit pointless in your case.

But the maths is still correct and the reason why you cant turn it up is because the amp cause distortion because it just cant do 600 ohms. My point still stand though that the amp is amplifying anything and even at max gain you reduced the signal by half so your not benefiting from using that amp. 

Im sorry this took so long to get to the end point, that the manufacturer maximum impedance is there for a reason and it is because the amp doesnt amplify anything after 150ohms. 

You and your misinformation is already giving me a headache. I'm gonna leave these here:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-impedance-explained.html

And also, if you read my previous post, I also have a Schiit Stack Uber. Thats to drive insensitive headphones like my HE-500 which is hopeless on an E10K. Guess what? even at 10 o'clock, the HD600 is pretty much as loud as the E10K and has a much lower noise floor anyways, which means if I wanted to, I can crank it to 1 o'clock if I wanted to break my ears before hearing any distortion. The only reason I have the E10K with me is for pseudo-portable use like when I go to a friend's house.

 

@Rukey_Lob don't listen to this post:

 

And here comes the correct answer to the OPs question

your headphone will only just benefit from the amplification in the DAC/AMP.

The DAC probably wont benefit you a huge amount if you have a reasonably modern/good quality audio built into your computer.

So if you do have poor audio system built into your computer get the DAC if not I advise you dont buy this because the audio quality improvement wouldnt be a huge amount and not that good value for the amount you would be spending.

 

He doesn't know what he's talking about.

[EndlessOyster]

You and your misinformation is already giving me a headache. I'm gonna leave these here:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/headphone-impedance-explained.html

And also, if you read my previous post, I also have a Schiit Stack Uber. Thats to drive insensitive headphones like my HE-500 which is hopeless on an E10K. Guess what? even at 10 o'clock, the HD600 is pretty much as loud as the E10K and has a much lower noise floor anyways, which means if I wanted to, I can crank it to 1 o'clock if I wanted to break my ears before hearing any distortion. The only reason I have the E10K with me is for pseudo-portable use like when I go to a friend's house.

 

@Rukey_Lob don't listen to this post:

 

 

He doesn't know what he's talking about.

You do realise that the first link talks about the "1/8th" rule which reading I can see the point of it, in the case on the e10k and you 600 ohm headphones they arent in line with the rule and he says the same thing I said would happen which is distortion of the higher frequencies. Just because your headphoens are sensitive enough the be loud doesnt mean that its benefiting from amplification

[LeeWonky]

You do realise that the first link talks about the "1/8th" rule which reading I can see the point of it, in the case on the e10k and you 600 ohm headphones they arent in line with the rule and he says the same thing I said would happen which is distortion of the higher frequencies. Just because your headphoens are sensitive enough the be loud doesnt mean that its benefiting from amplification

You know whats funny? The HD600 is a 300 ohm headphone. Even if the 1/8th rule applies, it doesn't matter because its being driven and isn't distorting because I'm not pushing the E10K which distorts like a motherfucker by 12 o'clock... and I just crank mine up to 10 and it isn't even close to distorting by then.

And also, since you're a smartass, explain to me why I can't drive my HE-500 with my E10K? Explain that. Or even explain why the HE-6 is normally seen with large-ass amps (that are obviously built to probably power a car, LOL) like the Schiit Ragnarok or Cavalli Liquid Gold or large-ass speaker amps like an Emotiva A100 Mini-X? Tell me, does the 1/8th rule even work for the HE-6, which is like 50 ohms?

You know what else is funny? The Audeze LCD-X can be driven off of a mere iPod unless you crank the volume to max if you wanna distort it.

[EndlessOyster]

You know whats funny? The HD600 is a 300 ohm headphone. Even if the 1/8th rule applies, it doesn't matter because its being driven and isn't distorting because I'm not pushing the E10K which distorts like a motherfucker by 12 o'clock... and I just crank mine up to 10 and it isn't even close to distorting by then.

And also, since you're a smartass, explain to me why I can't drive my HE-500 with my E10K? Explain that. Or even explain why the HE-6 is normally seen with large-ass amps (that are obviously built to probably power a car, LOL) like the Schiit Ragnarok or Cavalli Liquid Gold or large-ass speaker amps like an Emotiva A100 Mini-X? Tell me, does the 1/8th rule even work for the HE-6, which is like 50 ohms?

You know what else is funny? The Audeze LCD-X can be driven off of a mere iPod unless you crank the volume to max if you wanna distort it.

I dont know each individual item you own or have experience with there is too many things in the world for someone to even want to know what each specification is for them. So im not going to bother with that since you listen ten odd items.

But the problem when you drive the amp to high is that the top of the wave cant go any higher so you lose the high frequencies

This image shows this happening, its a sine wave on a oscilloscope and its being amplified too much and the top of the wave is starting to flatten. Its jokily know as the DJ affect, since commonly low end DJ's the amp is the last thing they upgrade and they have big speakers and this tiny amp and they ram that amp on to max and the amp is just crying inside because it cant do it 

So in your case of the little e10k amp if you did turn the gain up you would lose the tops and you agreed with me that it does do that. luckily your headphones are sensitive and you never reach that stage of amplification that you ever would have a problem.

[LeeWonky]

-Snip cuz I have no idea what you're trying to prove since its pointless. It even looks like you skim too much-

So in your case of the little e10k amp if you did turn the gain up you would lose the tops and you agreed with me that it does do that. luckily your headphones are sensitive and you never reach that stage of amplification that you ever would have a problem.

At what point did I agree with you? And lose what? Both the Schiit Stack Uber 2 and the E10K sound exactly the same even on blind tests. Both are static amps and both their jobs are to amplify while maintaining a low as possible noise floor. Why drive it higher when its already ear-piercing?

You still haven't answered my question. Explain to me why I can't drive my HE-500 on the E10K but I can do it with my HD600?

[EndlessOyster]

You still haven't answered my question. Explain to me why I can't drive my HE-500 on the E10K but I can do it with my HD600?

because the he500 is 35 ohms so with in the boundaries of impedance of the amp while the hd600 are 300 ohm which are way off. So if you turned the he500 up with the amp you wouldnt lose the high frequencies but with the 600 you would. I shouldnt need to explain it its simple amplify maths and fundamental to decide what amp goes with what driver.

[LeeWonky]

because the he500 is 35 ohms so with in the boundaries of impedance of the amp while the hd600 are 300 ohm which are way off. So if you turned the he500 up with the amp you wouldnt lose the high frequencies but with the 600 you would. I shouldnt need to explain it its simple amplify maths and fundamental to decide what amp goes with what driver.

Then this statement alone proves you're better off at Head-fi than here. So, please, gtho.

[EndlessOyster]

Then this statement alone proves you're better off at Head-fi than here. So, please, gtho.

Ill pass on that im not a huge fan of stupid priced headphones even if they give the holy grain of audio quality.

[LeeWonky]

Ill pass on that im not a huge fan of stupid priced headphones even if they give the holy grain of audio quality.

You sound like you're better off there.

[EndlessOyster]

You sound like you're better off there.

I work with large speaker systems but the power section still transfers over into headphones. So when I see a comment about amplification which is wrong I correct (I also started off a bit wrong as well, but I was highly intoxicated from working at a night club, so sorry about that) it because in my world it kills someone or breaks incredibly expensive equipment, in the headphone world it just sounds crap or in your case cant turn the gain up too much. 

Its why I dont comment on anything to do with headphones unless I have physical experience with that headphone, and I normally dont comment about sound quality either, because I just dont give a shit about it as long as it isnt dreadful. Im more likely to comment about build quality because thats important to me.

How ever much shit I throw at @SSL his knowledge of headphones is incredibly vast and if he says something about headphone audio quality I would trust him, but then again his knowledge of the maths is some times scary but probably fine for headphone world.

[LeeWonky]

I work with large speaker systems but the power section still transfers over into headphones. So when I see a comment about amplification which is wrong I correct (I also started off a bit wrong as well, but I was highly intoxicated from working at a night club, so sorry about that) it because in my world it kills someone or breaks incredibly expensive equipment, in the headphone world it just sounds crap or in your case cant turn the gain up too much. 

Its why I dont comment on anything to do with headphones unless I have physical experience with that headphone, and I normally dont comment about sound quality either, because I just dont give a shit about it as long as it isnt dreadful. Im more likely to comment about build quality because thats important to me.

How ever much shit I throw at @SSL his knowledge of headphones is incredibly vast and if he says something about headphone audio quality I would trust him, but then again his knowledge of the maths is some times scary but probably fine for headphone world.

So... let me get this straight... you're more into speakers, yes? Because as far as I remember, what works with speakers =/= what works with headphones. Just because both are in an enclosure, both have drivers, the difference isn't just limited to size and how to use one.

[EndlessOyster]

So... let me get this straight... you're more into speakers, yes? Because as far as I remember, what works with speakers =/= what works with headphones. Just because both are in an enclosure, both have drivers, the difference isn't just limited to size and how to use one.

Mathematically they work the same, and to decide which amp to use is the same maths, the only difference is the value of the numbers.

 

[LeeWonky]

Mathematically they work the same, and to decide which amp to use is the same maths, the only difference is the value of the numbers.

 

Except they don't, based on what you've said since page 1 in this thread.

[EndlessOyster]

Except they don't, based on what you've said since page 1 in this thread.

But they do thats the beauty of it. All the calculations are fundamentals of V (voltage)=I(current) R (Resistance/Impedance). Its just you wouldnt take into count the distance with headphones because you dont have the headphones twenty meters away like a speaker.

[LeeWonky]

But they do thats the beauty of it. All the calculations are fundamentals of V (voltage)=I(current) R (Resistance/Impedance). Its just you wouldnt take into count the distance with headphones because you dont have the headphones twenty meters away like a speaker.

I'm sure you've read this already:

 

 

Basically, yes. Impedance is just the resistance of a circuit to alternating current, which is more complex than simple direct current resistance. Sensitivity is loudness per unit power per unit distance. For headphones, the distance component is implicitly ignored, since it will never change.

 

To know how loud a headphone will get, you need to know things about the amp - namely, the output power at the impedance of the headphone. From there, you can use sensitivity to determine the final intensity produced. There is no way to infer this value from either measurement alone - impedance and sensitivity go hand in hand.

[EndlessOyster]

I'm sure you've read this already:

 

Yes he correct with it, but his original comment about saying that the maximum impedance of 150 which started this all of was wrong because at the maximum of 150ohms you only amplifying by 10% and once you start using larger impedances you are nolonger amplifying.

I used the same maths to work that out he says to use I just didnt do the final step of using the sensitivity to work out SPL, because I didnt care because the point I was make was about the amplifier. So I'm sure if I did use the sensitivty the SPL would be perfectly acceptable, but its not the amplifier doing it.

[LeeWonky]

Yes he correct with it, but his original comment about saying that the maximum impedance of 150 which started this all of was wrong because at the maximum of 150ohms you only amplifying by 10% and once you start using larger impedances you are nolonger amplifying.

I used the same maths to work that out he says to use I just didnt do the final step of using the sensitivity to work out SPL, because I didnt care because the point I was make was about the amplifier.

Thats where you're wrong with your math. You see, even Fiio is guilty with their so called "impedance support up to ___" or whatever it is. After reading The Impedance Ballad because I was frustrated with why the HE-500 couldn't be driven off of the Fiio E10K (in terms of impedance, the E10K should be able to drive the HE-500, but nope), it just proved that math based on an outdated thought is pointless such as Impedance being the determining factor on how hard a headphone is to drive. Its outdated, even if there's the 1/8th rule, impedance doesn't tell the entire story, and not even the important part of the story in terms of "can it be driven?". It just doesn't.

[EndlessOyster]

Thats where you're wrong with your math. You see, even Fiio is guilty with their so called "impedance support up to ___" or whatever it is. After reading The Impedance Ballad because I was frustrated with why the HE-500 couldn't be driven off of the Fiio E10K (in terms of impedance, the E10K should be able to drive the HE-500, but nope), it just proved that math based on an outdated thought is pointless such as Impedance being the determining factor on how hard a headphone is to drive. Its outdated, even if there's the 1/8th rule, impedance doesn't tell the entire story, and not even the important part of the story in terms of "can it be driven?". It just doesn't.

The maths is not wrong its one of the many fundamentals of audio as well as one of the fundamentals of electricity, most things you use in your day to day life will have something to do with V=IR if this formula is wrong the world is going to crash and burn.

Your probably right that impedance supported can go high and im sure they do leave leeway but they are not designed for 600 ohm monsters.

The reason why the HE500 cant be driven is probably sensitivity, but dont quote me on that I'm not looking it up its just me having a wild guess. I have no experience with those headphones, like I said I dislike stupidly priced headphones with special audio quality when I can get a speaker system which the neighbouring village is going to know I have.

[LeeWonky]

The maths is not wrong its one of the many fundamentals of audio as well as one of the fundamentals of electricity, most things you use in your day to day life will have something to do with V=IR if this formula is wrong the world is going to crash and burn.

Your probably right that impedance supported can go high and im sure they do leave leeway but they are not designed for 600 ohm monsters.

The reason why the HE500 cant be driven is probably sensitivity, but dont quote me on that I'm not looking it up its just me having a wild guess. I have no experience with those headphones, like I said I dislike stupidly priced headphones with special audio quality when I can get a speaker system which the neighbouring village is going to know I have.

The math is right IF you actually know what you're calculating for. The reason I kept asking you a question I already knew the answer of (the HE-500 and the HE-6) is because it doesn't take a guess, but an experiment to support an equation or calculation that explains why X can't perform as good if paired with Y? Turns out X wasn't at fault, but it was Y. The E10K couldn't drive the HE-500 because its just really insensitive. Just because something isn't designed for ___ amount of impedance, it doesn't mean it hurts to try and see for yourself. Thats why there's science, too. Since you're not a fan of "stupidly priced headphones with special audio quality", why bother go to a thread thats about headphones? Is it because of the discussion on impedance? Yes, you sound like you're really better off at Head-fi.