Smoking Barrels - LTT's Unnofficial Gun Club!

[Jito463]

25 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

That one is actually cool and probably a better method to carry a Glock than a standard Glock: You can’t accidentally shoot someone because you pulled the trigger picking it up or drawing it.

"Hang on a sec, don't shoot me while I pull my Glock out and unfold it".

 

Yeah, not willing to trust my life to that.  I'd rather rely on proper trigger discipline.  A folding pistol is even more ridiculous than carrying without a round in the chamber.

[Drak3]

Just now, Jito463 said:

I'd rather rely on proper trigger discipline.

That cocky attitude is shared by many people that accidentally shoot themselves.

[Jito463]

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

That cocky attitude is shared by many people that accidentally shoot themselves.

It's also shared by many more who have never shot themselves.

[Drak3]

Just now, Jito463 said:

It's also shared by many more who have never shot themselves.

So? “””Muh trigger discipline””” is a common excuse to not having safety mechanism, and more people shoot themselves or others as a result of that line of thinking than they should.

[Jito463]

Just now, Drak3 said:

So? “””Muh trigger discipline””” is a common excuse to not having safety mechanism, and more people shoot themselves or others as a result of that line of thinking than they should.

We were discussing a folding pistol and how much time it would take to unfold during an altercation, how did you make the jump to safety mechanisms?  Also, your thinking is flawed.  You assume that because a few people have shot themselves, that it automatically applies to everyone.  That's the same illogical argument used by the left when they try to infringe on our rights.  Unless you have statistical evidence to the contrary, you can't take the actions of a few and apply it to the whole.  Recognizing it's a possibility is one thing, but then it just comes back around to what I've been saying: proper trigger discipline is the key.

 

The only other important variable is having a good holster that prevents accidentally putting your finger on the trigger until you're ready to.

[Drak3]

12 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

We were discussing a folding pistol and how much time it would take to unfold during an altercation, how did you make the jump to safety mechanisms?  Also, your thinking is flawed.  You assume that because a few people have shot themselves, that it automatically applies to everyone.  That's the same illogical argument used by the left when they try to infringe on our rights.  Unless you have statistical evidence to the contrary, you can't take the actions of a few and apply it to the whole.  Recognizing it's a possibility is one thing, but then it just comes back around to what I've been saying: proper trigger discipline is the key.

 

The only other important variable is having a good holster that prevents accidentally putting your finger on the trigger until you're ready to.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-owens-glock-accidents-20150508-story.html

This is the closest thing to actual statistical evidence available without actually compiling individual instances myself.

 

Simply put, the lack of a safety is a liability. At least the folding frame circumvents accidentally pulling the trigger; as for your concern of how long it takes to deploy: it can be done rather fast with training.

 

”””Muh trigger discipline””” is a shitty catch phrase that doesn’t hold up to human nature, and as far as I’m concerned, anyone advocating it alone instead of having legitimate safeties as fallbacks loses all credibility when it comes to gun safety and carrying.

[Jito463]

8 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-owens-glock-accidents-20150508-story.html

This is the closest thing to actual statistical evidence available without actually compiling individual instances myself.

Okay, let's break those down:

Quote

Timothy Stansbury died in a New York housing project stairwell in 2004 because he startled a police officer. The officer's surprise at encountering Stansbury caused the officer's hand to clench and his weapon to fire. The death was ruled accidental by a grand jury, though the officer was later stripped of his gun for the remainder of his career.

Akai Gurley died in another New York housing project stairwell last fall. A rookie officer with his finger on the trigger of his pistol tensed as he pushed open a stuck door; the added pressure on the trigger caused his weapon to fire a shot down the stairwell. The round ricocheted off the wall to strike Gurley. Though the shot wasn't intentional and the officer didn't even know Gurley was there, the death has been ruled a criminal homicide, and the officer's trial is pending.

In both those cases, the officers should not have had their finger on the trigger unless they were actually ready to fire.  It takes a mere fraction of a second to move from off trigger to on trigger.  Again, they lacked proper trigger discipline.

Quote

Just last month, Ocala, Fla., Police Officer Jared Forsyth was shot and killed by a fellow officer after a Glock training session. The fellow officer failed to do a chamber check before pulling the trigger as part of the handgun's normal disassembly procedure. When the gun fired, the bullet went through a gap in Forsyth's body armor. Despite the efforts of paramedics to keep him alive, the young officer died on the way to a hospital.

This has less to do with trigger discipline (though that's a part of it) and more to do with as failure to verify the chamber was empty.  Having said that, if the officer was practicing proper trigger discipline, even leaving a round in the chamber wouldn't have lead to this death.

Quote

In real-world encounters, a short trigger pull can be lethal, in part because a significant percentage of law enforcement officers — some experts say as high as 20% — put their finger on the trigger of their weapons when under stress.

And therein lies the rub.  If they were actually practicing proper discipline, then their fingers would never touch the trigger until they were ready to fire.  The problem isn't the design, it's the wielder.

15 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Simply put, the lack of a safety is a liability.

Only to the untrained.  It's like saying that the lack of a trigger lock is a liability.

17 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

as for your concern of how long it takes to deploy: it can be done rather fast with training.

And learning to keep your booger hook off the trigger until ready to fire can be done with training, too.

Spoiler

 

The bottom line is, if you're practicing the four rules of gun safety, you're not going to endanger yourself or anyone else whether you have a manual safety or not.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, Jito463 said:

if you're practicing the four rules of gun safety, you're not going to endanger yourself or anyone else whether you have a manual safety or not.

Tell that to the DEA agent that made headlines either last year or two years ago.

 

Trigger discipline is not an absolute. I guarantee everyone in this thread either has, or will, fuck up multiple times. Regardless of how much training one does.

[Jito463]

Just now, Drak3 said:

Trigger discipline is not an absolute.

True, and that's where the rest of the four rules come into play.  If you're practicing them regularly, you have to violate a minimum of TWO rules to be unsafe.

1. Always assume the gun is loaded
2. Never point the gun at something you're not prepared to hit
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot
4. Be aware of your surroundings and verify your target

In the first two cases above, the police officers violated 2, 3 and 4.

 

In the third case, the officer violated 1, 2 and 3.

 

It required multiple violations of the rules to lead to an unsafe condition.  Just violating one of them will not automatically lead to an unsafe condition.  You are right that's not just about trigger discipline, but that is an inherent part of the process.  When you follow those rules, it doesn't make any difference whether you have a manual safety or not.

[george357]

5 hours ago, kaiju_wars said:

So I'm looking at new pistols again.  Another compact or sub compact pistol.

Kinda wanna phase out my SCCY CPX-2.  I'd probably make that a truck gun.  

Personally, I love how small and thin sub compact 9 and .380s are.  I also don't mind some single stack compact 9 and .380s either.

 

So here's what I'm looking at so far:

• Smith & Wesson M&P 380 Shield.  
• Glock G43X
• G43
• G42

I'll be honest.  The 43X, 43, and M&P 380 feel the best in the hand.  I already have a subcompact .380 with my LCP... so I'm looking more at these compact handguns.

The M&P feels the absolute best in the hand, I like the grip safety.  

The G43 and G43X also feel good in the hand.  Both are single stack 9mms, but the X has a bigger grip.  That's the major downside to the M&P and G43X for me.  Bigger grip will be harder to conceal.  Now that I've lost a bunch of weight, I think I'd be able to conceal either or... 

 

The price difference is also pretty massive.  I think it's $150 price difference between the M&P and the cheapest Glock that I have picked out.

Since you like the feel of the G43 variants and the M&P the best and given the price disparity you mention I vote for the Smith & Wesson. Shields seem to be hard to beat for value IMO. 

[kaiju_wars]

4 minutes ago, george357 said:

Since you like the feel of the G43 variants and the M&P the best and given the price disparity you mention I vote for the Smith & Wesson. Shields seem to be hard to beat for value IMO. 

I'm thinking that.  I love how thin the G43X and G48 are though.  They are just a little thinner than the M&P.  (yeah, I like thin, compact guns for concealed carry).

How does Smith & Wesson stack up to Glock in terms of reliability, customer service, and warranty?

[george357]

58 minutes ago, kaiju_wars said:

I'm thinking that.  I love how thin the G43X and G48 are though.  They are just a little thinner than the M&P.  (yeah, I like thin, compact guns for concealed carry).

How does Smith & Wesson stack up to Glock in terms of reliability, customer service, and warranty?

I have never seen discrepancies between the two in reliability, customer service and warranties. Either company would get my money based on those qualifiers.

[kaiju_wars]

2 minutes ago, george357 said:

I have never seen discrepancies between the two in reliability, customer service and warranties. Either company would get my money based on those qualifiers.

Sounds good.  I'll check in next time I work, since I get a discount there and all, lol.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, kaiju_wars said:

Sounds good.  I'll check in next time I work, since I get a discount there and all, lol.

Personally, I'd go with a shield that has the manual safety.

[kaiju_wars]

I’ve been losing weight, I can now properly/comfortably appendix carry now.

[Trik'Stari]

 

I feel like a threat such as that, should result in an immediate loss of public office. Also remember that one Democrat "representative" in the past, threatened the use of nuclear weapons against any american citizens who refuse to give up their guns.

[Real_PhillBert]

11 hours ago, kaiju_wars said:

I’ve been losing weight, I can now properly/comfortably appendix carry now.

Nice! I switched from ~3:30 carry in a crossbreed super tuck to appendix in a custom GunCraft about three and a half years ago and love it. I'm far from a big guy (5'11" ~165lbs) and I can comfortably carry a full size gun if I want. The only real downside I've found is tying your shoes with your gun on is a bit tricky haha, but sitting I've found to be far more comfortable than 3:30 carry.

[kaiju_wars]

8 minutes ago, Real_PhillBert said:

Nice! I switched from ~3:30 carry in a crossbreed super tuck to appendix in a custom GunCraft about three and a half years ago and love it. I'm far from a big guy (5'11" ~165lbs) and I can comfortably carry a full size gun if I want. The only real downside I've found is tying your shoes with your gun on is a bit tricky haha, but sitting I've found to be far more comfortable than 3:30 carry.

I carried my PA-63 last night to the movie theater, and then my friend’s apartment as I checked out PSVR with Ace Combat 7.  Even sitting on the edge of his bed, the way the frame is, your legs make an acute angle with your torso... it wasn’t uncomfortable.  Granted while the PA-63 was a service pistol, it isn’t a full-size pistol.  Closer in size to the Walther PP.  

[kaiju_wars]

Got new grips for my PA-63, don’t have to deal with the thumb rest digging into my side.

 

 

Got a clamp for my Kensa Charger project!

[bondoao1]

Nice looking grips, is that .380?

 

Side note, have you taught your cat proper gun safety yet? I recall seeing a video about that you youtube, very funny.

[kaiju_wars]

13 minutes ago, bondoao1 said:

Nice looking grips, is that .380?

 

Side note, have you taught your cat proper gun safety yet? I recall seeing a video about that you youtube, very funny.

9mm Makarov.

 

As for the cat, she knows gun safety.

[Drak3]

Finally bit the bullet and got a glock.

[Aimi]

Just now, Drak3 said:

Finally bit the bullet and got a glock.

Which one? Standard or Compact? And it better not be .380

[Drak3]

2 minutes ago, Aimi said:

Which one? Standard or Compact? And it better not be .380

19 Gen 4.

 

17 was too expensive, 48 doesn't share mags with my Sub 2000, and I find the magwell of the gen 5 uncomfortable.

[Drak3]

Range report

The M4 was fun. Kicks harder than the 930, but the ghost rings make up for it. Sadly, only holds 4+1 of the 2 3/4 shells we got and the action makes loading a bit of a pain in the ass. The thin barrel gets hot fucking fast.

 

The Glock flipped less than I expected. Sights are okayish. Other than changing those, I'll probably leave the slide stock. As it's not broken in yet, ejection was weak at first, only throwing brass far enough to gently hit me in the head a few times. Reminiscent of low recoil brass in my 930. Got slightly better a few mags in.

Magpul mags are a pain in the ass. Glock factory on the left, Magpul on the right. Both 15 round mags.