deceptive reviews and shoddy advertisement practices being cracked down on in youtube re Machinima/xbox 1

[TheProfosist]

Oh and if you guys are wondering I did not do that for Linus as I am genuinely interested myself for my own purposes. This kinda just gave me a reason to make sure that I was doing it correctly as well.

[Jhong46]

The laws are clear. 

the FCC clearly states. being given a review sample, a keeper, to review, experience, promote, to give ones feelings on. ALL REQUIRE DISCLOSURE. 

regardless if they a re a game or a product means jack squat. the same rules apply. 

Linus also states in a previous post. That he was given the titans for the workstation in exchange for them to do a video on it. THIS IS PAID MARKETING. no matter how you look at it, justify it, that is illegal LINUS. Im not saying dont make these videos. I like them. but at the start of every video and in the description. I need to know why this video was made. That means. if you got the sample for free, THEN SAY IT. if you got 6 titan X's THAN SAY IT. Dont come on here saying we dont take money and tell me its alright. because you've admitted to breaking the rules already on here. 

+linus have you seen Total B's video regarding this? if not could I invite you to watch it, check its citations. and then perhaps we can get a measured response. not just some justification. 

 

 

I think you're talking about the FTC, not the FCC. They actually have a page dedicated to this topic, I advise you to take a look.

 

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/ftcs-endorsement-guides-what-people-are-asking#about

 

MOST of what you said is right, but most of it doesn't apply to Linus. Under "When does the FTC Act apply to endorsements?", it lists some of the possible scenarios where one would, by law, have to disclose whether the product was provided free of charge. Honestly, there's a lot of gray area. 

 

The part I find the most interesting is the last question on the first section. I've copied and pasted it below.

 

"

A famous athlete has thousands of followers on Twitter and is well-known as a spokesperson for a particular product. Does he have to disclose that he’s being paid every time he tweets about the product?

It depends on whether his followers understand that he’s being paid to endorse that product. If they know he’s a paid endorser, no disclosure is needed. But if a significant portion of his followers don’t know that, the relationship should be disclosed. Determining whether followers are aware of a relationship could be tricky in many cases, so we recommend disclosure.

A famous celebrity has millions of followers on Twitter. Many people know that she regularly charges advertisers to mention their products in her tweets. Does she have to disclose when she’s being paid to tweet about products?

It depends on whether her followers understand that her tweets about products are paid endorsements. If a significant portion of her followers don’t know that, disclosures are needed. Again, determining that could be tricky, so we recommend disclosure.

"

Linus isn't a "famous athlete" but its just an example. Same situation

The language here is pretty ambiguous, and I'm not quoting some Youtube video... This is a .gov site, managed by the FTC itself. Plus, we here on LTT should KNOW that he doesn't pay for all this tech... He cranks out a video a day, he COULDN'T possibly pay for it all... We, his followers, are perfectly "aware of the relationship" (quoting what the FTC says), that alot of tech corps send him free stuff. That being said, oftentimes he DOES mention that the product was sent to him by company XYZ, its up to US to catch it.

At that point, Is it really HIS fault if WE fail to notice that he disclosed the sponsor?

Final note: I think we're all forgetting what LTT gives us beyond just tech reviews. As a matter of fact, lets take the "tech" portion out of it. What are we left with?

Incredibly fun, humorous people with an immense amount of talent and dedication toward their craft. Honestly, I feel like they could make any video, and we'd still watch... because they're just fun people to be around. ChannelSuperFun is honestly one of my favorite channels, and I'm sure countless other people enjoy it. 

 

also if you judge a gpu purchase or a cpu purchase or any other big purchase on JUST linus's ~10-15 minute review..... you should know that research is the job of the consumer, not the producer...

[TheProfosist]

@Jhong46 something that needs to kinda be made clear is that just because someone sends a review sample this does not meant that they are a sponsor. Those are separate things entirely.

[LinusTech]

So quick question, since most of the specific examples people have brought up were either CLEARLY sponsored or NOT actually sponsored..

Has anyone ever actually been confused about an ACTUAL sponsored thing we've done?? (FYI the video for the Titan X cards is not out yet but iirc I mention where they came from, so let's leave that one out for now)

Does anyone here think I spend 10s of thousands of dollars a month on tech gear??

More just curious than anything else.

[nunya bus]

So quick question, since most of the specific examples people have brought up were either CLEARLY sponsored or NOT actually sponsored..

Has anyone ever actually been confused about an ACTUAL sponsored thing we've done?? (FYI the video for the Titan X cards is not out yet but iirc I mention where they came from, so let's leave that one out for now)

Does anyone here think I spend 10s of thousands of dollars a month on tech gear??

More just curious than anything else.

Linus I dont make the rules. 

you have said in the last few posts that you were given the titan X's and you AGREED to do a video about them being installed. 

you also have quadro cards. etc etc. 

to Nvidia this is probably invaluable marketing that you are letting them off on the cheap for. Okay I get it. you dont pay a thing for the gear. 

but this is what we are talking about. THE ETHICS of the situation. All I ve heard in response are justifications. 

The rules are clear Linus. will you pledge to start releasing and informing people of why you are making the video and EXACTLY what you received in exchange for doing it. 

That's all that we ask. And thats what the LAW asks for. 

I dont think Ive ever seen or heard someone justify and justify why they are doing something so wrong and think they are not doing anything about it. 

listen to total biscuits video 

and then I want you to come back on here and tell me what you will do in the future to let us (the people who pay your bills mind you) unless its Nvidia and Intel... I dunno to be honest. 

I dont think you understand the gravity of this. the FTC and FCC just handed Machinima their ASS for doing exactly what you are doing. and they got REKT so keep it up or not. 

[Phillyphries]

This is quite possibly the most interesting thread I've read through on LTT in a LONG time.

 

I'm not an expert on the law by any means, but judging from the research others have done, and cross referencing them, I'm kind of surprised this hasn't been talked about more often.

 

Linus makes excellent videos, and I love his channel and have been following him on youtube for a LONG time, but he's gotten very popular to the point where he more often than not is starting to recieve very valuable "samples" in which he is allowed to keep, followed by videos that really do seem like an advertisement. Sometimes he doesn't say, "I am making this video because I received 6 FREE Titan X's from Nvidia..", but I think most of the time he says, "I asked this company for a review sample...". As far as I can tell, these are definitely not the same. What I can tell is, Linus does make an effort in some videos to do this step, but it doesn't really feel specific enough. I agree with the notion that in some way that --> Free samples that you keep = sponsored content, because they gave you something of value to make a video. 

 

I agree with the OP in the means that I would like to get more SPECIFIC disclosure on why you really are making the video. Obviously, at the end of the day it's about money. Irrefutable. However, just like when we complain about politicians taking bribes to speak on a corporation's issues, we need to take the 'internet product showcase/review video industry' a little bit more seriously. We can't have internet video companies (who appear to their audience to be credible) taking essentially what are bribes like politicians do, to position themselves favorably to the respective company's position.

 

That's my take. Linus has obviously made a huge effort in increasing productivity, and with that, I understand when some things get overlooked. But it's gotten to the point (Especially with the 6 Titan X's) where it's starting to look pretty shady.

 

P.S. - I think the people who say, "if you don't like it, then don't watch it" are very backwards. Things aren't always black and white. Giving content providers feedback when they actually listen to you is one of the most important aspects of the relationship that the community should not take for granted. If all of us voice our opinion, and the opinion is shared amongst the majority of LTT users, then I guarantee you, it will be addressed.

[nunya bus]

This is quite possibly the most interesting thread I've read through on LTT in a LONG time.

 

I'm not an expert on the law by any means, but judging from the research others have done, and cross referencing them, I'm kind of surprised this hasn't been talked about more often.

 

Linus makes excellent videos, and I love his channel and have been following him on youtube for a LONG time, but he's gotten very popular to the point where he more often than not is starting to recieve very valuable "samples" in which he is allowed to keep, followed by videos that really do seem like an advertisement. Sometimes he doesn't say, "I am making this video because I received 6 FREE Titan X's from Nvidia..", but I think most of the time he says, "I asked this company for a review sample...". As far as I can tell, these are definitely not the same. What I can tell is, Linus does make an effort in some videos to do this step, but it doesn't really feel specific enough. I agree with the notion that in some way that --> Free samples that you keep = sponsored content, because they gave you something of value to make a video. 

 

I agree with the OP in the means that I would like to get more SPECIFIC disclosure on why you really are making the video. Obviously, at the end of the day it's about money. Irrefutable. However, just like when we complain about politicians taking bribes to speak on a corporation's issues, we need to take the 'internet product showcase/review video industry' a little bit more seriously. We can't have internet video companies (who appear to their audience to be credible) taking essentially what are bribes like politicians do, to position themselves favorably to the respective company's position.

 

That's my take. Linus has obviously made a huge effort in increasing productivity, and with that, I understand when some things get overlooked. But it's gotten to the point (Especially with the 6 Titan X's) where it's starting to look pretty shady.

 

P.S. - I think the people who say, "if you don't like it, then don't watch it" are very backwards. Things aren't always black and white. Giving content providers feedback when they actually listen to you is one of the most important aspects of the relationship that the community should not take for granted. If all of us voice our opinion, and the opinion is shared amongst the majority of LTT users, then I guarantee you, it will be addressed.

 

Such a beautiful post! 

[BrightCandle]

So quick question, since most of the specific examples people have brought up were either CLEARLY sponsored or NOT actually sponsored..

Has anyone ever actually been confused about an ACTUAL sponsored thing we've done?? (FYI the video for the Titan X cards is not out yet but iirc I mention where they came from, so let's leave that one out for now)

Does anyone here think I spend 10s of thousands of dollars a month on tech gear??

More just curious than anything else.

 

In the process of investigating what I did I found out about the Bestbuy sponsorship from other viewers and then when you posted in here I found out about the Titan X's in the production machines and how that happened. I can say with 100% certainity you have done sponsorsed work I did not know about until well after the video was done, and at this point I don't know what else I have watched that was sponsored where it wasn't clear. You have failed to disclose a lot and there is a lot of native advertising with the placement of products (Kingston SSDs, Corsair RAM etc) now my brain is open to it. I can only answer it for myself, someone who watches some of what you produce.

[Helio_Vice]

beyond rekt

Nothing to see here.

[nunya bus]

So quick question, since most of the specific examples people have brought up were either CLEARLY sponsored or NOT actually sponsored..

Has anyone ever actually been confused about an ACTUAL sponsored thing we've done?? (FYI the video for the Titan X cards is not out yet but iirc I mention where they came from, so let's leave that one out for now)

Does anyone here think I spend 10s of thousands of dollars a month on tech gear??

More just curious than anything else.

for my personal riggs and my business. yes Linus. us "normal" people do 

[nunya bus]

Nothing to see here.

thanks for your amazing contribution 

you for P.M !

[TheProfosist]

Linus I dont make the rules. 

you have said in the last few posts that you were given the titan X's and you AGREED to do a video about them being installed. 

you also have quadro cards. etc etc. 

to Nvidia this is probably invaluable marketing that you are letting them off on the cheap for. Okay I get it. you dont pay a thing for the gear. 

but this is what we are talking about. THE ETHICS of the situation. All I ve heard in response are justifications. 

The rules are clear Linus. will you pledge to start releasing and informing people of why you are making the video and EXACTLY what you received in exchange for doing it. 

That's all that we ask. And thats what the LAW asks for. 

I dont think Ive ever seen or heard someone justify and justify why they are doing something so wrong and think they are not doing anything about it. 

listen to total biscuits video 

and then I want you to come back on here and tell me what you will do in the future to let us (the people who pay your bills mind you) unless its Nvidia and Intel... I dunno to be honest. 

I dont think you understand the gravity of this. the FTC and FCC just handed Machinima their ASS for doing exactly what you are doing. and they got REKT so keep it up or not.

I just referenced that video less than a page ago here

 

Well here ya go I watched the video and took some notes while watching http://goo.gl/TVmr15 I was a bit lazy and didnt type it up but if someone like @LinusTech or enough people would want me to type it up I can

Some stuff that applies directly to what you said:

For a review you have to disclose that you got the product for free. Does not necessarily need to be be disclosed in the video. At a minimum should it be disclosed in the description "above the fold", so you shouldnt have to click "show more". A example would be "I got this free to try" is a simple example.

Pretty sure Linus already does this and even does it in the video at the beginning, most tech-tubers do.

Also the rules are not the same. Review samples and the like are far more lax than directly sponsored content. My guess is because that is pretty much common place and no reviewer is going to pay for a product just to review it. (I was actually asked to do this recently.)

It also applies to where the reviews are done so Linus would have to look at what the laws are in Canada since that is where his company is based. EX: UK Trade Commission took down a UK specific ad. More in response to someone who said Linus had to follow US law since YouTube is based in the US.

Also these laws are to prevent Native Advertisement which is basically an ad written or shot not to look like and ad. Decent video from Last Week Tonight below. Total Biscuit gives a number of good examples of this and I would say non of LMG's stuff fits this description. I guess if people were super concerned or upset they could try to report LMG to the FTC but id say they are pretty much in the clear.

Yes he did video is to come and not out yet. He said that in the video he mentions that they were given to them by Nvidia. the video is not out yet but once it is you can see for yourself if that is the case or not. Im surprised that you are going on and on about a video that is not even out yet.

Feel free to read my note son that video (hand written mind you) also most if not all of the stuff in that post applies to this reply to you so im not going to retype it all (I almost started actually).

Also when you say "exactly what you are doing" you have yet to say explicitly what he is doing and how it is wrong. That is something that you kind of need to do to have a proper argument on your side of a discussion.

[TheProfosist]

for my personal riggs and my business. yes Linus. us "normal" people do

Linus did ask if that was the case. So which videos have been unclear for you? You also may want to go into how they have been unclear and/or how you may have been mislead. Additionally you may want to suggest ways specific to the instances in those videos on how he could have improved them so that they were more clear. This is what would be considered as proper and through feedback which most people are glad to get. Ranting however is not useful.

[BrightCandle]

The R 285 budget/easier to run games 4k video was that sponsored? In hindsight watching it back I think it might have been. What about the choice of graphics card was that with LTT or did AMD recommend it/provide it along with the CPU and motherboard? Were the Kingston SSDs, Corsair RAM and the case etc chosen because they were the right fit for the budget or because they were what you had laying around from your sponsorship from those companies? Is any of this really clear?

 

Edit (adding the video for clarity):

 

[TheProfosist]

@BrightCandle could you link the video if at all possible just to make it easier? Just a suggestion.

[shymi]

A humble opinion of mine - sorry if I repeat somebody else, but can't read through 11 pages of comments, especially early in the morning, on Monday and with just a cup of coffee:

 

There's a huge difference between a review and paid videos. LTT(as well as other channels/websites/etc.) receive test samples from companies, video game critiques receive the games for free. Now there will sometimes be shady part of this, because when receiving the sample/game there is a contract of some sort, which both sides agree on. I can't be 100% accurate and will not point fingers, but I think many companies(if not all) try to add something under the table for positive reviews from certain companies(this might be in the form of money, physical gifts or threat for someone to be added to a blacklist and not receive samples in the future, which could sometimes break careers). As some pointed out - there are not disclaimers about, that something, that is reviewed, is given for free - are you guys serious? Do you think, that somebody reviewing something days before the actual release, so their review could be released on day one(or when NDA is lifted), every time buys it? I think it's vice-versa - channels thank other people/companies, when they receive a test sample via them, or specifically tell their audience, that they have bought their unit and that's why their review is late.

 

About TB's video - again, there is a huge difference between sponsored content(a "Let's play" used for advertising for example) and a review. I don't think, that there should be disclaimer, if the review is honest and everything is told about the product. I don't care if LTT, TB or anybody else gets something for free, if their review is done properly and matches user reviews. Sorry for mentioning TB so frequently, but how many of you noticed, that he goes to Steam community hub and reads comments about game performance and adds those concerns as disclaimers for the game. In the port report for MGS V The Phantom Pain(awesome title btw ), he tells his viewers, that the engine uses an instruction, which is missing in older CPU architectures. 

 

So that's all from me. Sorry again if I repeat many of you and don't bash me too hard - this is my honest opinion and I don't defend shady business done under the table. If I find out, that something like this is done by somebody and because of that I received inaccurate reviews I'll just stop viewing their content - it's as simple as that

 

Have a nice, calm and successful week everybody

 

P.S. Often review samples must be returned to the manufacturer, if I'm not mistaken.

[nunya bus]

I just referenced that video less than a page ago here

 

 

I know you did. But Linus just doesnt seem to get why we are talking about this. He thinks we care he got the stuff for free. We kinda do. but the problem here is the ETHICS. so I posted it again. to see if he watched it again. He hasnt. Instead he 

made the most elitest post ever. saying. 

do you think I pay thousands of bucks for my hardware each month. I mean the audacity to say that on a thread point out this very thing. 

his personal rigs and his work rigs should have been bought through a retailer. But NO. they were supplied by Nvidia including expensive quadro cards. zeon processors, high end Motherboards. and massive amounts of SSD's . I mean do I have to go on. 

Normal people would have paid for all of that. and maybe reported it to tax to be written off. but no. Linus thinks its "alright" and that he doesnt think there is any problem. 

[nunya bus]

@BrightCandle could you link the video if at all possible just to make it easier? Just a suggestion.

Linus says. Amd "challenged him" 

WTF does that mean lol 

And the description says (no disclosure)

Published on Dec 24, 2014

4K has always seemed a bit out of reach for most PC gamers. But check out this build that's SIGNIFICANTLY more affordable than you might expect...

Pricing & discussion: http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/2...

Support us: http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/7...

Join our community forum: http://bit.ly/ZkLvE7

https://twitter.com/linustech

http://www.facebook.com/LinusTech

Intro Screen Music Credit: Adhesive Wombat - Check out his channel here: http://youtube.com/adhesivewombat

Outro Screen Music Credit: Approaching Nirvana - Sugar High http://www.youtube.com/approachingnir...

Category

Science & Technology

License

Standard YouTube License

Okay Linus does reveal disclosure at the VERY end. which is still against the FTC rules. It must be at the start, it must be in the description.  and preferably in the title. 

But its at the point where majority of ppl would be stopping the video. which is why the FTC states it must be UNAVOIDABLE 

[shymi]

I know you did. But Linus just doesnt seem to get why we are talking about this. He thinks we care he got the stuff for free. We kinda do. but the problem here is the ETHICS. so I posted it again. to see if he watched it again. He hasnt. Instead he 

made the most elitest post ever. saying. 

do you think I pay thousands of bucks for my hardware each month. I mean the audacity to say that on a thread point out this very thing. 

his personal rigs and his work rigs should have been bought through a retailer. But NO. they were supplied by Nvidia including expensive quadro cards. zeon processors, high end Motherboards. and massive amounts of SSD's . I mean do I have to go on. 

Normal people would have paid for all of that. and maybe reported it to tax to be written off. but no. Linus thinks its "alright" and that he doesnt think there is any problem. 

Looks like another long post from me comes:

Why do you think companies give free samples for reviewing and try so hard to pay for a positive review? It's all about advertising. It's much better to give a test sample to a reviewer, so that a review be brought online, which in itself is an advertisement for the product and is brought to the target audience faster and better. If a company, in this case LTT, is loyal to you(saying loyal, I mean not breaking any rules, that the company and LTT agree upon, they always put out content for your products with great quality and so on), why not give something back in appreciation? Some of you don't get this, but should - in the end this is business. If you are employer and your employee does a great job, you give them a bonus of some kind. This is the same situation.

 

P.S. Well, in the end wasn't so long

[BrightCandle]

his personal rigs and his work rigs should have been bought through a retailer. But NO. they were supplied by Nvidia including expensive quadro cards. zeon processors, high end Motherboards. and massive amounts of SSD's . I mean do I have to go on.

 

This surprised me a lot. Why would Nvidia/Intel/etc give them all this hardware for running their business? It kind of gets a lot of "placement" in their videos, they have mentioned it quite a bit recently (without disclosing it was all free). So it sure looks like (ethics is not about being ethical its about also the appearance of being ethical) they got free hardware for product placement in videos. Now I go back and watch a load of videos I could probably prove with a reasonable confidence that giving Linus free stuff for computers will result in it being in other reviews as placement for a number of videos afterwards. That is really really bad and it builds distrust with your customer the moment they realise it.

[nunya bus]

This surprised me a lot. Why would Nvidia/Intel/etc give them all this hardware for running their business? It kind of gets a lot of "placement" in their videos, they have mentioned it quite a bit recently (without disclosing it was all free). So it sure looks like (ethics is not about being ethical its about also the appearance of being ethical) they got free hardware for product placement in videos. Now I go back and watch a load of videos I could probably prove with a reasonable confidence that giving Linus free stuff for computers will result in it being in other reviews as placement for a number of videos afterwards. That is really really bad and it builds distrust with your customer the moment they realise it.

YOU GET IT> YES! 

people think I am just hating on Linus. I'm not Im a lover of the videos. but the other week I just lost it. Im being basically treated like a fool, and I dont appreciate it at all.

[Quincy15]

This surprised me a lot. Why would Nvidia/Intel/etc give them all this hardware for running their business? It kind of gets a lot of "placement" in their videos, they have mentioned it quite a bit recently (without disclosing it was all free). So it sure looks like (ethics is not about being ethical its about also the appearance of being ethical) they got free hardware for product placement in videos. Now I go back and watch a load of videos I could probably prove with a reasonable confidence that giving Linus free stuff for computers will result in it being in other reviews as placement for a number of videos afterwards. That is really really bad and it builds distrust with your customer the moment they realise it.

 

And there you go. Even if its not deceptive (and I am 99.9% sure its not) it gives the impression that it is.

 

Please note that this practice is not confined to LTT. Its common among Youtube tech reviewers be be given stuff to review which they can then keep. Paul's hardware reciently built a high end gamaing rig and I would have to rewatch the video but I dont think that he paid for many of the components.  

 

Youtubers should be upfront about this.  

[shymi]

Just of curiosity - how many of the websites/channels, that make hardware review, do you think have received free hardware(apart from that for reviews)?

Let the paranoia begin...

[vXhanz]

This surprised me a lot. Why would Nvidia/Intel/etc give them all this hardware for running their business? It kind of gets a lot of "placement" in their videos, they have mentioned it quite a bit recently (without disclosing it was all free). So it sure looks like (ethics is not about being ethical its about also the appearance of being ethical) they got free hardware for product placement in videos. Now I go back and watch a load of videos I could probably prove with a reasonable confidence that giving Linus free stuff for computers will result in it being in other reviews as placement for a number of videos afterwards. That is really really bad and it builds distrust with your customer the moment they realise it.

 

Well... I have to say that my opinion has changed after reading every post in this thread and from my initial posts telling people to get a life (I was wrong). I watched that video by the guy with the top hat, and I can see how this applies to the video's on LTT. It's definitely not black/white, and I think I'll be more aware of this in the future. 

 

Thank you. 

[vXhanz]

Just of curiosity - how many of the websites/channels, that make hardware review, do you think have received free hardware(apart from that for reviews)?

Let the paranoia begin...

 

Not to take this OT, but I watch a lot of woodworking video's as well and I found it odd a few weeks ago that some of the top youtube woodworkers were all reviewing/giving praise to a certain company an all on the same products with video's dropping within hours of each other, but not disclosing that it was given to them for free or how they got it. 

 

I think this goes beyond just simple hardware reviews and in the tech community in general.