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NVIDIA Under Attack Again for GameWorks in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt

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So Nvidia technology for Nvidia GPU's can't be optimized for AMD GPU's and we apparently have a problem with this? What was everyone expecting? Imagine that, a company that makes GPU's made an exclusive technology only for their GPU's... How dare they? :D

Exactly. I can't understand how people blame NVIDIA for this...

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Exactly. I can't understand how people blame NVIDIA for this...

I get this entirely. They spent time, money and resources developing it, so why should they share it with someone that contributed in no way what so ever?

Just look at this scenario from this point of view: A couple of people worked hard making something and as soon as they show their work another group comes along and demands they give them the right to copy/use their work. That just doesn't make sense at all...

And this is coming from someone that uses an AMD GPU. So I'm certainly not an Nvidia fanboy.

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.....why doesn't AMD just come up with their own equivalent of gameworks?

 

Or was that essentially what Mantle was?

AMD has had their gaming evolved program for a while now, but because they have almost nothing compared to what Nvidia does as far as individual technologies goes, it is basically just heavy optimization + tressFX and the dev staff get AMD hardware to play with and develop on. I know that Star Citizen will be a gaming evolved title but will also incorporate a bunch of Nvidia tech too. Other examples of gaming evolved titles include Battlefield 4, Bioshock Infinite, Crysis 3, Tomb Raider (the new one), and Hitman Absolution.

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Its an Nvidia title isnt it? Lol GeForce till i die

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.....why doesn't AMD just come up with their own equivalent of gameworks?

 

Or was that essentially what Mantle was?

 

AMD tried with Gaming Evolved and things like TressFX but here is the problem - AMD basically has to throw away their tech so people will use it. Why? Cause no one gives a shit about using AMD specific features as much as they do Nvidia specific ones. Why? 

When you sign a Gameworks contract, you literally get a FedEx shipment of Nvidia engineers who will HELP YOU THROUGH DEVELOPMENT on a level that AMD just can't match. Game developers are basically rank amateurs when it comes to programming, I believe it was an Nvidia engineer who straight up said they have to fix so many problems in the drivers since game development is such a joke. 

So as a studio, who needs help and wants an optimized game, who ar you going to pick? The company that has 1/4th the marketshare and doesn't seem to care about helping? Or the company running 3/4 the market and who will send out assistance if you need it? 

People on this forum have little idea how the real world works. It takes two to tango. You want to crucify Nvidia for having Gameworks? Go ahead. But you sure as fuck better crucify the developer for accepting that deal as well. 

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Its an Nvidia title isnt it? Lol GeForce till i die

I'm sure we all will appreciate your invaluable input in this matter.

Born to game, forced to work.  -_-

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AMD tried with Gaming Evolved and things like TressFX but here is the problem - AMD basically has to throw away their tech so people will use it. Why? Cause no one gives a shit about using AMD specific features as much as they do Nvidia specific ones. Why? 

When you sign a Gameworks contract, you literally get a FedEx shipment of Nvidia engineers who will HELP YOU THROUGH DEVELOPMENT on a level that AMD just can't match. Game developers are basically rank amateurs when it comes to programming, I believe it was an Nvidia engineer who straight up said they have to fix so many problems in the drivers since game development is such a joke. 

So as a studio, who needs help and wants an optimized game, who ar you going to pick? The company that has 1/4th the marketshare and doesn't seem to care about helping? Or the company running 3/4 the market and who will send out assistance if you need it? 

People on this forum have little idea how the real world works. It takes two to tango. You want to crucify Nvidia for having Gameworks? Go ahead. But you sure as fuck better crucify the developer for accepting that deal as well. 

Could you maybe direct us towards an article (preferable unbiased) or other source of your information/opinion (whatever it is)? It seems that you poses first hand knowledge about the issue.

Born to game, forced to work.  -_-

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That just doesn't make sense at all...

 

It makes perfect sense in a world where kids are raised to be special. They become "entitled twat-donkeys(1)". Things requiring effort, and failure states being a possibility, is not in their vocabulary. 

 

(1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hAwxS4kXJE#t=3m30s

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I like you too dude! People are so serious on forums, im trying to have fun. Its simple, buy the type of card that has the least compatability/support issues with games. Sure, thats unfair Nvidia partners with developers to screw the competition. But its the world we live in

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why the fuck is Nvidia under attack for this? just because AMD is too lazy to make fancy hair posible on their GPUs?

they arnt lazy they simply cant

its all here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uoD8YKwtww

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AMD has had their gaming evolved program for a while now, but because they have almost nothing compared to what Nvidia does as far as individual technologies goes, it is basically just heavy optimization + tressFX and the dev staff get AMD hardware to play with and develop on. I know that Star Citizen will be a gaming evolved title but will also incorporate a bunch of Nvidia tech too. Other examples of gaming evolved titles include Battlefield 4, Bioshock Infinite, Crysis 3, Tomb Raider (the new one), and Hitman Absolution.

Let me fix that for you

 

"AMD has had their gaming evolved program for a while now, but because they don't bribe the devs Nvidia does as far as individual technologies goes,"

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Amd could get some attorneys (like Samsung did to Apple and viceversa), keep our costs down on cards and the playing field even

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I don't get it. You can't disable that setting or something? I've seen many other games using "NVIDIA "Ultra to the max shadows or tessellation", but you can simply turn it off.

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I really hope DX12 can make an end to all this crap. Probably not, but i hope it will.

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I don't get it. You can't disable that setting or something? I've seen many other games using "NVIDIA "Ultra to the max shadows or tessellation", but you can simply turn it off.

Thats the problem when they made the game project cars they just use physx without any option to be turned off, did they did it to make amd gpu looks bad?

 

this is part of the discussion 

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Could you maybe direct us towards an article (preferable unbiased) or other source of your information/opinion (whatever it is)? It seems that you poses first hand knowledge about the issue.

Information on how Nvidia works with developers has been koww for years, since the early days of The Way It's Meant To Be Played. I don't remember specfic articles since we're talking like 4-5+ years ago but it's fairly common knowledge that Nvidia sends engineers off to work with developers. Information on how AMD worked with studios is less transparent but just in terms of resources it's easy to tell that AMD doesn't have anywhere near the spare engineers that Nvidia has. I believe the develoment of the current Frostbite engine and inclusion of Mantle in it is one of the last times there was any concrete word of AMD working directly with developers on tech and games. DA:Inq perhaps but I don't remember if Bioware talked about working with AMD people on it.

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Thats the problem when they made the game project cars they just use physx without any option to be turned off, did they did it to make amd gpu looks bad?

 

this is part of the discussion 

So you want them to use a 3 year old Physics engine in a game which is supposed to be a simulator, and not a newer better Physics engine instead. 

 

Physx Engine ≠ Physx effects.

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/363018-project-cars-devs-address-amd-performance-issues-developer-is-blaming-amds-drivers-for-the-performance-issues/?p=4987549

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/363018-project-cars-devs-address-amd-performance-issues-developer-is-blaming-amds-drivers-for-the-performance-issues/?p=4987591

2 Posts from @VictoriousSecret which explain the difference great.

Just remember: Random people on the internet ALWAYS know more than professionals, when someone's lying, AND can predict the future.

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Amd could get some attorneys (like Samsung did to Apple and viceversa), keep our costs down on cards and the playing field even

 

Yes, you can just sue people when things don't go your way. 

 

...are you kidding me?

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Why does it hurt the community as a whole? That sounds more like your personal projection, rathar than the voice of the community. If gameworks means better visuals in games, I hardly think anyone would be against that. The problem that it doesn't run well on AMD graphics cards, is yet to be blamed on nvidia in a constructive manner. I'm personally more looking at the developers for not making the gameworks software and their own engine mutually exclusive, and/or AMD for not wanting to pitch in. I feel like AMD is burning too many bridges, and we somehow have to feel sorry for them. 

 

I agree that it's annoying people saying "i own GTX, therefor i don't care". But don't take those people as an example when you're comdeming this whole forum. But to be honest, I think people just say that to get a rise out of people (like you).

 

 
 
I'm sorry but you're the one being anti-consumer here. You're not willing to let the consumer decide for themselves, and somehow make digital rights protection blasphemy, when it's just a company protecting their assets behind a royalty and an NDA for obvious reasons. If you don't understand why nvidia doesn't disclose gameworks, you're basically telling us that Coca-Cola should just let every random copy-cat coke producer have their formula.

 

 

"you cannot play this game in any reasonable fashion simply because you didn't buy a Nvidia GPU" #Competition 

 

You argue that there is no "constrictive evidence" that its Nvidias fault but i would argue that there is more evidence that it is then is not. They've shown tendencies to do such this Ala Crysis 2 and Batman and if benchmarks are true (salt of grain handy) they are even gimping anything thats not the 9xx series when it comes to game works to the point of the 960 almost performing as well as the 780ti and out performing the 780, which on paper, make absolutely zero sense. 

 

Along with that (though i realize it leans heavily towards an appeal to ignorance ala' fallacy of informal logic) if this "gameworks" bullshit was so special and Nvidia cards were the winners of the "only i can do this" award there would be absolutely no reason for nvidia to hide it behind such a massive wall. Remember that time when when tressfx ran like shit on nvidia cards? But amd handed out the code open source and now it runs pretty much fine on any nvidia gpu because it was easy enough to work with? I can almost guarantee you it would happen the exact same way if Nvidia wasn't trying to cut up the pc market.

 

And the whole "they just protect what is there's because #competition, so its ok bro" is absurd. We purposely (allegedly) gimp the competition in a way thats already been deemed pretty much illegal (as intel has found out). Hue hue we did it because competition doh"

 

Brought over from the other Witcher post "Like many other titles which use GameWorks, Nvidia are the performance leaders, but this again raises the question of Nvidia artificially giving their GPUs an advantage over the competition. Nvidia need to promote fairness with their GameWork's Library for it to be truly beneficial to the gaming world, as right now it is doing a great job of promoting Nvidia over AMD, via questionable methods, rather than simpler game development."

 

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So you want them to use a 3 year old Physics engine in a game which is supposed to be a simulator, and not a newer better Physics engine instead. 

 

Physx Engine ≠ Physx effects.

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/363018-project-cars-devs-address-amd-performance-issues-developer-is-blaming-amds-drivers-for-the-performance-issues/?p=4987549

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/363018-project-cars-devs-address-amd-performance-issues-developer-is-blaming-amds-drivers-for-the-performance-issues/?p=4987591

2 Posts from @VictoriousSecret which explain the difference great.

I never said that.  they can use whatever game engine they or Physics engine want ,  but since that was their choice they deal with what comes to them.

 

​if you played a game and it was running low on fps because it was design to work better for amd and they didn't even disclose that , WOUDN'T YOU BE COMPLAINING?

 

"of course i wouldn't" xD i imagine you saying something like that

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I never said that.  they can use whatever game engine they or Physics engine want ,  but since that was their choice they deal with what comes to them.

 

​if you played a game and it was running low on fps because it was design to work better for amd and they didn't even disclose that , WOUDN'T YOU BE COMPLAINING?

 

"of course i wouldn't" xD i imagine you saying something like that

I feel like you're either an AMD fanboy, or a troll...

 

And did you even read the posts I linked?

 

Phsyx engine is NOT the same as Physx Effects.

Just remember: Random people on the internet ALWAYS know more than professionals, when someone's lying, AND can predict the future.

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"you cannot play this game in any reasonable fashion simply because you didn't buy a Nvidia GPU" #Competition

 

But that does not put the blame on nvidia by default. Nvidia offering gamesworks services/libraries, should not inherently mean the game should therefor be unplayable on non-nvidia hardware. And the only persons that hurts this financially, are the developers. Nvidia couldn't care less, they're payed for the libraries anyway. So again, i'm mainly blaming the developer for not making the gamesworks libraries mutually exclusive (and the game itself agnostic). By which I mean a feature you can toggle on/off. And AMD for A. not providing their own services and/or asking royalties for said services B. not pitching in when the developer asked (alledgedly).

 

You argue that there is no "constrictive evidence" that its Nvidias fault but i would argue that there is more evidence that it is then is not. They've shown tendencies to do such this Ala Crysis 2 and Batman and if benchmarks are true (salt of grain handy) they are even gimping anything thats not the 9xx series when it comes to game works to the point of the 960 almost performing as well as the 780ti and out performing the 780, which on paper, make absolutely zero sense. 

 

 
I feel like your cognitive bias makes you aproach things very single-sided and not even humor the other options. It runs better on Maxwell hardware, you can explain that as malicious, or you can explain that due to the fact it's a different architecture and can thus have better performance in certain tasks which is not by design or malicious intent. I'm willing to bet they didn't set out to gimp their own consumerbase. I'd lose all faith in the company tbh, and i have absolutely no reason to believe they're this stupid. They've shown, more than AMD, they know how to run a business profitably.

 

Along with that (though i realize it leans heavily towards an appeal to ignorance ala' fallacy of informal logic) if this "gameworks" bullshit was so special and Nvidia cards were the winners of the "only i can do this" award there would be absolutely no reason for nvidia to hide it behind such a massive wall. Remember that time when when tressfx ran like shit on nvidia cards? But amd handed out the code open source and now it runs pretty much fine on any nvidia gpu because it was easy enough to work with? I can almost guarantee you it would happen the exact same way if Nvidia wasn't trying to cut up the pc market.

 

AMD not asking royalties for TressFX is their own damn fault. They make a lot of dumb mistakes, hence they're doing so poorly. It's not hard to connect the dots and see how utterly misguided AMD is. It's like the Konami of computer hardware. Gameworks being attractive to developers, says to me that the libraries are worth a damn and save them time. If they sucked, they'd be putting their own product at risk. And the only reason they're experiencing issues at the end of the development, is because AMD isn't willing to play ball. No developer sets out to create a game that will only run on nvidia hardware, you'd leave money on the table.

 

You think that AMD making everything open source and not asking royalties makes them somehow gain karma and eventually revenue? No, that's not how it works. It makes them look weak, unsure of their product and unable to run a company. It advocates consumer mistrust and deevaluates their products as a result. As is painfully evident by their constant decline in marketshare and being dubbed "the cheap alternative".

 

 

And the whole "they just protect what is there's because #competition, so its ok bro" is absurd. We purposely (allegedly) gimp the competition in a way thats already been deemed pretty much illegal (as intel has found out). Hue hue we did it because competition doh"

 

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here, but if you're advocating that no company can have digital rights, company secrets or can ask royalties for their properties, you're delusional.

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I feel like you're either an AMD fanboy, or a troll...

 

And did you even read the posts I linked?

 

Phsyx engine is NOT the same as Physx Effects.

 

Don't worry, we gave up in the other thread too. 

 

PhysX accelerated effects require CUDA which AMD REFUSED to license, so its not Nvidias problem that AMD can't get good particle acceleration. AMD refused to license CUDA and to build PhysX capable drivers back in the day. 

PhsyX physics engines are no different (though far more modern) than Havok, which is another physics engine; all of which are CPU bound and don't care what GPU you use. 

 

People don't want to understand the difference, they'd rather continue being stubborn and fanboys. 

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