LGBT community

[DANK_AS_gay]

4 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

 

@LinusTech @jakkuh_t @CPotter @nicklmg the actions of the discord mod team are kind of concerning. I get what their intentions are - but their actions are in my opinion not okay.

But in America it is political, heavily so. And Discord's userbase is 30% American, no other country makes up a portion of Discord anywhere near that large. Maybe they should have worded their response differently, but they were right to take it down for political reasons. 

[dalekphalm]

1 minute ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

But in America it is political, heavily so. And Discord's userbase is 30% American, no other country makes up a portion of Discord anywhere near that large. Maybe they should have worded their response differently, but they were right to take it down for political reasons. 

LMG is a Canadian company - and LGBT rights shouldn't be political.

 

No, they were wrong. By taking it down for "political reasons", they're essentially appeasing anti-LGBT bigots.

 

What they should do, is moderate the server. If someone attacks an LGBT friendly post or content, ban them. If they end up banning a lot of people? Well, no harm done.

 

I stand by my statement. What they did was morally wrong.

 

I'm all for them deleting messages or posts that were spammy or in your face about LGBT (or anything), but a Happy Pride Month post, and some pictures where a trans flag happens to be in the background? Not cool. Not cool at all.

[DANK_AS_gay]

24 minutes ago, Hairless Monkey Boy said:

I think you may be interpreting this study incorrectly. This study does not indicate that sex reassignment increases harmful outcomes. Comparing "sex reassigned" persons to "the general population" is not a useful nor meaningful comparison to determine this. If you are trying to measure the effect of sex reassignment on mortality and other harmful outcomes, the comparison that should be made is the one between "sex reassigned" persons, and persons who wanted sex reassignment, but were denied it, or persons who considered it, and decided against it.

 

Here is a quote from the introduction:

 

I think part of the problem (this is conjecture), is that you know that genetically, that you aren't really what you set out to change to.You can't change your sex. From the moment the sperm fertilizes the egg, you are either male or female (genders notwithstanding). Once you realize that, and you get sick of taking the pills, getting injections, the checkups, it gets old.

[DANK_AS_gay]

6 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

LMG is a Canadian company - and LGBT rights shouldn't be political.

 

But they are. That isn't up for debate, and it isn't something either of us get to choose. And again, it doesn't matter that LMG is a Canadian company, if their main audience is America. Good luck telling 15% of your viewerbase to sod off. 

 

8 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

No, they were wrong. By taking it down for "political reasons", they're essentially appeasing anti-LGBT bigots.

 

From the "anti-LGBT bigots" point of view, not removing very political material just because it has to do with LGBT is unfair at the very least, and downright corrupt at the most. No politics means no politics. 'nuff said.

 

10 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

If someone attacks an LGBT friendly post or content

Then they would be engaging in political conversacion, which is explicitly prohibited. So in that regard, you are correct.

11 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

What they did was morally wrong.

What tells you this? How do you know? What is the basis on which you evaluate moral correctness? I sure hope it isn't on your feelings, as those are very subjective.

13 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

but a Happy Pride Month post, and some pictures where a trans flag happens to be in the background? Not cool. Not cool at all.

Happy Pride Month I can see (again, very political), but the happening to have the flag in the background one is a dumb.

[Hairless Monkey Boy]

53 minutes ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

How is comparing the suicide rate before and after gender reassignment surgery, which is supposed to solve the issues that would cause such a person to commit suicide, not speak on the effectiveness?

Because that isn't what the study does. It wasn't designed to do that. The control group in the study does not allow for "comparing suicide rate before and after reassignment". Only one of those two groups is present in the study, the "after" group. The group compared against that "after" group aren't "persons before reassignment", they are the general population defined in the study as persons without gender dysphoria.

 

Reassignment alone could never "solve" the mortality rate problem. Not in those absolutist terms. The point is "harm reduction". This study serves only to tell us that there remains an increased mortality risk even after reassignment. But it cannot tell us to what degree that risk is changed (reduced or increased) for an individual who chooses whether or not to undergo reassignment.

 

1 hour ago, Hairless Monkey Boy said:

If you are trying to measure the effect of sex reassignment on mortality and other harmful outcomes, the comparison that should be made is the one between "sex reassigned" persons, and persons who wanted sex reassignment, but were denied it, or persons who considered it, and decided against it.

 

This study, the way it is designed, is not capable of answering the question, "To what degree does sex reassignment increase or reduce the risk of suicide among persons who identify as trans." It can't answer that question, because it measures neither the risk of suicide for persons before reassignment, nor the risk of suicide for persons who considered reassignment, but were denied access to it or decided against it.

 

The only thing this study tells us is that reassignment in and of itself does not reduce mortality for trans people down to the same rate as the general population.

 

I'm trying to be very specific with my language here. So it is important that you try to understand what I am saying. You may disagree with me, but before you can disagree with me, you must understand me. Reiterating what I have said in your own words would help me know that I am understood.

[Quackers101]

48 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

LMG is a Canadian company - and LGBT rights shouldn't be political.

Doesn't if you are talking LGBT or something else. (as they mention "LGBTQ+")

LGBT is more clearly defined in the west and as human rights. So one over the other being more political in the west IMO.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Quackers101

[Ultraforce]

36 minutes ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

But they are. That isn't up for debate, and it isn't something either of us get to choose. And again, it doesn't matter that LMG is a Canadian company, if their main audience is America. Good luck telling 15% of your viewerbase to sod off. 

 

From the "anti-LGBT bigots" point of view, not removing very political material just because it has to do with LGBT is unfair at the very least, and downright corrupt at the most. No politics means no politics. 'nuff said.

Happy Pride Month I can see (again, very political), but the happening to have the flag in the background one is a dumb.

In that case they should be banning flags all together from the LTT discord. How is the American flag not political but the trans flag is. One is the flag for a country that overthrew governments and one is for a group saying we are here.

Maybe, I'm wrong but it seems really dumb to say literal political flags aren't political but pride flags are. Since if this description of political is accurate that means saying genocide is wrong is a message that must be deleted since genocide is political.

Long story short I just don't buy it that the discord mods had to do that. They chose to but it by no means was necessary.

[DarkSwordsman]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

What they should do, is moderate the server.

Just to add to this specifically: The best I've been able to get from their responses is that they don't have enough moderators (which Dooley mentioned once, which violates the Discord Partner Agreement) and they rely on Warship to preventively moderate, rather than taking action on what they actively see or get reports for.

 

There's a bunch of other issues, but as it pertains to this issue specifically, they were very, very in the wrong. Also, their justification for not having channels or discussion that is outside the topic of tech or LTT (which the mods themselves have actually done before) is that it's against the Partner agreement. The Partner agreement doesn't care if you talk about other things, they just don't want the LTT server to be re-branded into something else with a different topic.

[Hairless Monkey Boy]

1 hour ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

I think part of the problem (this is conjecture), -snip-

If you wish to gain a better understanding, conjecture will get you nowhere. There are plenty of people trying their best to tell you about their lives. You need only listen.

[DANK_AS_gay]

1 hour ago, Ultraforce said:

How is the American flag not political but the trans flag is. One is the flag for a country that overthrew governments and one is for a group saying we are here.

 

1 hour ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

the happening to have the flag in the background one is a dumb

I don't know how much more specific I can get than this.

[DANK_AS_gay]

1 hour ago, Hairless Monkey Boy said:

-snip-

I took Statistics last year, so I know what you are saying (now that you clarified). The comparison between before and after can't be made if you don't have a before in the same study (comparing to outside studies could and would cause issues with confounding variables). So while in my head I was thinking, "Well the rates are already elevated, and they are still massively elevated afterwards, so how is it effective?" When I can't compare before. I still find it important to note this study, as whether or not it speaks to the effectiveness of the treatment, it still is something to keep in mind. My original words were "This may not be the perfect solution you think it is" (or something like that), not that there is no reason to do it at all. I just don't like seeing people changing themselves this much and getting mad at doctors for being careful. 

[da na]

3 hours ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

 

I don't know how much more specific I can get than this.

Still, if country flags are allowed, identity flags need to be as well. There's no reason they shouldn't be.

[Neroon]

13 hours ago, milkerfish said:

I can't wait to start HRT properly, I've been DIYing since February because my GP/family doctor has been a gatekeepy bitch and first put me on an 8 month waitlist to get an assessment and then a further 4 month waitlist to see an endocrinologist who doesn't even mainly deal with trans people.

While these waiting times are absolutely too long, I sadly have to say they are way longer over here (Netherlands), we are talking 3+ years, it's absolutely absurd. This has to do with only 1 hospital, with 1 limited group of people being allowed to diagnose this, and thus the waiting lists are extremely long. Truly messed up.
To be clear, I don't want you to feel lucky or whatever because of this, because honestly waiting lists for these kinds of things should be like 1-2 months tops.

Now I do absolutely believe in proper assessment, not so much from a validating that what you are feeling is true, but from a mental health perspective, I will address that below as to why.

8 hours ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

Better safe than sorry. I'd rather wait and know it is being done right and that my body will respond appropriately, and wait a year, than rush it a screw something up. Plus, some people are genuinely mentally unstable, which is again why your doctor is so hesitant, and why they got an evaluation done. Also, you might want to consider this.

 

(quote from that link, where you can investigate this yourself)

Results

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Conclusions

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. (this we already know) Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

 

This was a study done in Sweden, a place that is far more supportive than America is of transgender people. I am not saying what you are and aren't, I am telling you that this may not be the perfect solution you wish it to be. Just be careful.

 

7 hours ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

Ok, I found a thing here that says you were rightish.

"For the purpose of evaluating the safety of sex reassignment in terms of morbidity and mortality, however, it is reasonable to compare sex reassigned persons with matched population controls. The caveat with this design is that transsexual persons before sex reassignment might differ from healthy controls (although this bias can be statistically corrected for by adjusting for baseline differences)"

 

But what I don't understand is this:

How is comparing the suicide rate before and after gender reassignment surgery, which is supposed to solve the issues that would cause such a person to commit suicide, not speak on the effectiveness?

This is supposed to be a permanent solution, and it seems to wear off after 10 years.

So this comes down to hope and expectations. So I before I continue, I want to clarify that I'm a straight white cis male, I also have a lesbian transgender sister, and we visit a trans meeting place about twice a month for the past few years, so I've met hundreds of trans people, some who I know quite well.
I've been a mental health worker for nearly 15 years, this also includes some experience with trans people.

 

When we go to the basis of suicide, there are 3 things that keeps people from committing suicide:

1. Because they don't have it in them to do it, whether this be because it's wrong, or because the act of doing that frightens them too much.

2. Because of guilt towards others (including pets), not wanting to cause pain etc.

3. Because they still have hope that things can change, even if they have almost no hope left.

 

The third one is vital here, because for anyone who is reading this, and luckily never had these feelings, try to imagine your darkest moment, and then add the feeling to that, that it will never improve, NEVER. You are absolutely 100% convinced your life won't get better, you will be in constant pain, nothing will ever change that, if anything it can only get worse. That's losing hope. I speak from experience that this feeling makes you want for the pain to end, in whatever way. Now again points 1 and 2 often prevents.

 

Now think about transgender people. Many people come to a point where they literally think "do or die", either make that huge step to be who they are, or give up. Now many do choose death sadly, others will end up staying in that horrible depression, but there are luckily also those who decide to make that step, hoping that it will change their life, in fact many do believe that taking this step will change their life (and it obviously will to some degree).

 

So they go to a doctor, get diagnoses or assessed or whatever process is used for them to acknowledge who they are, they take hormones, get the surgeries they want and they really start to present how they feel (of course a lot of people luckily start that before a doctor gives their stamp of approval, especially with massive waiting lists).

Things have changed, but at the same time it hasn't, the depression didn't magically go away, maybe they have an anxiety disorder, or a different disorder like a personality disorder, they have spent their whole adult life avoiding life, having little to no job experience, no degree, family and friends who don't approve etc etc.

And all the sudden that hope that pulled you along, disappears, because life is shit. People discriminate against you, you need to keep explaining why your gender is really you, and not just a phase. Sure you look different, but do you like the person in the mirror? Even if others think you look good, do you think so? Do you feel hole? And does the dysphoria go away, or does that nagging feeling of not being 'complete' stay, because a woman can't give birth, and a man cannot produce sperm. And there are so many more other things that play a role.

 

I 100% support transitioning, I absolutely believe that if they don't, they will always be stuck. But it's not a magical cure. Of course there are a lot of people that came out of their shell because of this, started experiencing life in a different way, feel great about who they are and make massive steps. That ain't a rarity, I have met so many people who totally changed their life, and this ain't a rarity, it definitely isn't.
But the other side of that coin are the people who are hurting too much, and need much more help, not in the form of surgeries or whatever, but from professional mental health, because even if they fully feel as the gender that they are, mental health is real, and even when you are like me, a straight white cis male, you can still absolutely end up being suicidal.

 

 

So yeah hope. Their hope was that transitioning and getting everything done that they can, would fix them. Well it doesn't, and when that sets in and the hope goes away, that's when they make the choice to end their life.

 

Btw my sister had a close friend who committed suicide, she was supported by her family and friends, her whole male friend group kept being there for her, I only met her once, but she was a nice person. But in the end the depression won.

7 hours ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

I think part of the problem (this is conjecture), is that you know that genetically, that you aren't really what you set out to change to.You can't change your sex. From the moment the sperm fertilizes the egg, you are either male or female (genders notwithstanding). Once you realize that, and you get sick of taking the pills, getting injections, the checkups, it gets old.

This becomes more of a language thing. When people talking about changing their sex, they talk about a penis or vagina. You can change those. Obviously people understand that a trans woman cannot give birth.

7 hours ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

But they are. That isn't up for debate, and it isn't something either of us get to choose. And again, it doesn't matter that LMG is a Canadian company, if their main audience is America. Good luck telling 15% of your viewerbase to sod off. 

If we get down to it, everything is political. How much I'm paid is political, how much taxes I have to pay is political, where I live is political, whether I can communicate with people all over the world is political etc etc.

Literally everything is political, because politics can change that stuff. Sure you might argue: "well I have free speech, and they can't take my freedom away from talking with other people all over the world", the simple answer though, is that yes they can. What would happen if that changed? Well people would riot, protest, move to other countries. Sounds familiar?

 

So everything is political, the difference is, is that it's a hot topic, that many don't agree that people should be allowed to transition.

BUT LMG has taken a clear stance on this, they don't discriminate (at least not actively), they accept people from all genders etc. That a large minority in the US don't like it, is absolutely fucking irrelevant. It doesn't even matter if LMG was a Canadian country or not, because even if it was a US based company, they are still the ones that decide what they will and will not allow, within the bounds of the law. And both Canadian and US laws don't ban this.

 

So this ends up being about whether the LMG staff, with Linus on the forefront, want to say fuck you to all those who cannot accept the diversity, or they can talk a big game about acceptance, but we will still silence people if those intolerant people have too much of an issue with an image or anything like that. In the end it's their community, they get to decide how they want to run things. But imo they absolutely should take a clear stance on this, because it can't be that people get bullied by enough reports, that they will remove a picture of a PC with a trans flag in the back.

[DarkSwordsman]

9 hours ago, Neroon said:

..they get to decide how they want to run things.

While they totally can, it doesn't change that the LTT discord community is very different than the forum. Mainly in a way that makes pretty much any normal conversation impossible, and only because of the moderation.

 

The way moderation is supposed to work is that you have common sense rules, get a vibe for how the community itself exists with it's own cliques, and then remove messages and mute/ban users that violate the rules.

 

The problem here was not that they view the transgender flag as political. The problem is that they are "short staffed" (Dooley's own words + violates the Partner agreement) and they preventatively moderate. You cannot preventatively moderate things that require context. You can only preventatively moderate terms and phrases that are bad on their own, but even then the Discord Moderator Academy recommends a whitelist system, and you still can't even say "Virgin Media" because it contains the word "virgin". Not to mention the plethora of other words.

 

Discord would have no problem if a server like LTT had channels for LGBTQ discussion, or any off-topic discussion. There are many other large, partnered servers that do this including PCMR, Madoka (an anime-focused server), a few VTuber servers, Live2D, and others.

 

A great example was back when aprime said something about the Ukrainian war and Dooley did not remove it. It was clearly political, so the message should be removed, no? And then Dooley asked, publicly, for him to not talk about it. I thought moderation actions/concerns were not to be discussed publicly?

 

I won't speak more since I'll be getting out of the context of this thread and I can go on about the hypocrisy of the mod team there. But at the end of the day, the moderation move in this case is actively discriminating a group of people because of a worry about discrimination, rather than tackling that discrimination as it happens and removing problem users like they should.

[DANK_AS_gay]

17 hours ago, Mel0nMan said:

Still, if country flags are allowed, identity flags need to be as well. There's no reason they shouldn't be.

Again, I said that was stupid, I agree with you. I'm not saying that that particular action was acceptable

[DANK_AS_gay]

14 hours ago, Neroon said:

Obviously people understand that a trans woman cannot give birth.

Yes, but that's the problem. If you truly are a woman, you can never (fully) change to a woman. You can't have children, and you will always look like a man due to your bone structure (some feminine males notwithstanding). Understandably, you would feel like an imposter, hence why some places refer to the mother as the "Birthing Parent" instead of the mother. Because it shatters the illusion that you are a woman. Imagine you just had the biggest change of your life, and you are not only trapped, you are trapped without somewhere to belong. You can't "hide as a man" anymore, nor can you effectively present yourself as a woman.

This is a male, you can tell because of the chin. And the shape and positioning of the jaw. (the stereotypical haircut doesn't help...)

 And you cannot change that realistically. Your mental health relies entirely on a false notion. That is dangerous. 

Also, why do we cater to gender dysphoria? If someone has schizophrenia, we don't engage in their hallucinations, why do we engage in a mental disorder that also involves a misrepresentation of reality? I get engaging in it for a little while until they can get professional psychiatric care, but to help convince them that the feelings they get as a result of a mental disorder are perfectly valid is not caring in the least. Not even a little. If I was depressed (which I have been, as I have Aspergers), and someone told me that the feelings I have are valid and in no way incorrect, that would cause serious issues, and obviously has nothing to do with a caring person.

Now, am I saying that the hate that such people are getting is valid? No! You shouldn't be killing/threatening anyone. Some of the treatment these people get is appalling. Noone has the right to harass anyone else in any way. But is it ok to actively encourage the progress of a mental disorder? Of course not.

[Ultraforce]

1 hour ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

Yes, but that's the problem. If you truly are a woman, you can never (fully) change to a woman. You can't have children, and you will always look like a man due to your bone structure (some feminine males notwithstanding). Understandably, you would feel like an imposter, hence why some places refer to the mother as the "Birthing Parent" instead of the mother. Because it shatters the illusion that you are a woman. Imagine you just had the biggest change of your life, and you are not only trapped, you are trapped without somewhere to belong. You can't "hide as a man" anymore, nor can you effectively present yourself as a woman.

 

 

 And you cannot change that realistically. Your mental health relies entirely on a false notion. That is dangerous. 

Also, why do we cater to gender dysphoria? If someone has schizophrenia, we don't engage in their hallucinations, why do we engage in a mental disorder that also involves a misrepresentation of reality? I get engaging in it for a little while until they can get professional psychiatric care, but to help convince them that the feelings they get as a result of a mental disorder are perfectly valid is not caring in the least. Not even a little. If I was depressed (which I have been, as I have Aspergers), and someone told me that the feelings I have are valid and in no way incorrect, that would cause serious issues, and obviously has nothing to do with a caring person.

Now, am I saying that the hate that such people are getting is valid? No! You shouldn't be killing/threatening anyone. Some of the treatment these people get is appalling. Noone has the right to harass anyone else in any way. But is it ok to actively encourage the progress of a mental disorder? Of course not.

It's a pretty big misrepresentation of reality that being able to give birth is necessary for someone to be a woman. Since there's plenty of reasons, even cis-women and people with uteri might not be able to have children. Honestly, I didn't find the bone structure thing particularly convincing. Also, while I can't speak for trans people, I'm pretty sure the reason why one transitions is that prior to starting their transition they feel like an imposter they aren't the gender that they were told they were.

Also, not sure if you've read it but here is how the DSM-V which definitely has its faults describes gender dysphoria :

Gender dysphoria refers to the distress that may accompany the incongruence between

one's experienced or expressed gender and one's assigned gender. Although not all indviduals will experience distress as a result of such incongruence, many are distressed if the

desired physical interventions by means of hormones and/or surgery are not available.

The current term is more descriptive than the previous DSM-IV term gender identity disorder and focuses on dysphoria as the clinical problem, not identity per se.

The problem is that the way people assign a person's gender isn't their gender. It's a bit like saying that making accommodations for people on the Spectrum, who have ADHD, OCD, or schizophrenia is bad you shouldn't give anti-psychotic medicine to people with schizophrenia or medicine to people with ADHD concentrate or OCD to decrease their anxieties. That's engaging with the mental disorder.

Like no dude, the issue for trans people is the anxiety, depression and unease caused by bigots who don't accept them. Just like you aren't enabling the progression of Asperger's or ASD-1 by allowing someone on the spectrum to use text to speech or dictate an essay, or set up particular patterns for tools.

TL;DR gender dysphoria is caused by people not accepting the gender identity of someone. Not that their gender identity is wrong, and allowing people to transition isn't enabling the progression of their mental illness any more than allowing someone with ADHD to take adderall is enabling the progression of their mental illness(the answer for both is it doesn't). If someone is allowed to transition, whether that involves taking pharmaceuticals or doing surgery or not, and are able to have a supporting community, gender dysphoria could go away.

Sorry for the long post and long TL;DR and if I didn't do the best job with anything I just really felt the need to respond to DANK, even if it's maybe not my place as a straight cis guy on the spectrum who doesn't have much connection to the LGBTQ+ community.

[Neroon]

1 hour ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

Yes, but that's the problem. If you truly are a woman, you can never (fully) change to a woman. You can't have children, and you will always look like a man due to your bone structure (some feminine males notwithstanding). Understandably, you would feel like an imposter, hence why some places refer to the mother as the "Birthing Parent" instead of the mother. Because it shatters the illusion that you are a woman. Imagine you just had the biggest change of your life, and you are not only trapped, you are trapped without somewhere to belong. You can't "hide as a man" anymore, nor can you effectively present yourself as a woman.

This is a male, you can tell because of the chin. And the shape and positioning of the jaw. (the stereotypical haircut doesn't help...)

 And you cannot change that realistically. Your mental health relies entirely on a false notion. That is dangerous. 

Also, why do we cater to gender dysphoria? If someone has schizophrenia, we don't engage in their hallucinations, why do we engage in a mental disorder that also involves a misrepresentation of reality? I get engaging in it for a little while until they can get professional psychiatric care, but to help convince them that the feelings they get as a result of a mental disorder are perfectly valid is not caring in the least. Not even a little. If I was depressed (which I have been, as I have Aspergers), and someone told me that the feelings I have are valid and in no way incorrect, that would cause serious issues, and obviously has nothing to do with a caring person.

Now, am I saying that the hate that such people are getting is valid? No! You shouldn't be killing/threatening anyone. Some of the treatment these people get is appalling. Noone has the right to harass anyone else in any way. But is it ok to actively encourage the progress of a mental disorder? Of course not.

They can have children, and many do. But plenty of cis people can't have children, does that make them not real men or women? What about in gay cis relationships, they can reproduce together without outside help, does that make them not real?

 

Your argument of not looking like a woman, is not just transphobic, but simply discriminating in general. If someone doesn't appear to you as you feel like people should, they aren't real. Feet too big as a woman (cis or trans) well you are not a woman. Too masculine? Yup not a woman. Can't carry a child? Not a woman.

Do you have any idea how offensive you are too so many people? The fact you are posting 2 images here, just baffles my mind, as if that is gonna proof jack shit. I can post images of women here, and have you guess who are 'real' women or not according to you, and you would fail miserably due to you own misguided notions of how people are supposed to look.

 

Are you fucking kidding me? You are comparing gender dysphoria to schizophrenia? You clearly have no clue what you are talking about, and this absolutely does not deserve a proper response.

 

You autism, well that clears something up, though you weren't depressed because of autism, that's not how that works. I'm sure it didn't help, but autism does not cause depression.

 

People have claimed their feelings are invalid a long long time, and that still happens, by people like you, and some countries have more people like you than others.

Guess what? It only makes it worse, but instead of having numbers of trans people committing suicide, you just have numbers of people committing suicide. 

You are basically arguing to not know why people kill themselves, so that you don't have to face the truth that people like you invalidating trans people, is the cause of suicides.

 

Do you know how people like you were treated 50+ years ago? In that time we learned to accept how your mind works, how it's different from the majority, and help you navigate this world, instead of constantly try and force you to be 'normal' and be like everyone else, and whenever you do something we don't understand, surpress you.

What happened to people like you back then, is what you are doing right now.

6 hours ago, DarkSwordsman said:

While they totally can, it doesn't change that the LTT discord community is very different than the forum. Mainly in a way that makes pretty much any normal conversation impossible, and only because of the moderation.

I'm  ot disagreeing with you. My point was that they can make the rules but they need to be clear about them for the whole community. That is forums, discord, youtube, twitch, floatplane and all other socials.

[DANK_AS_gay]

1 hour ago, Ultraforce said:

-snip-

 

1 hour ago, Neroon said:

-snip-

There are 2 kinds of responses. The adult one, that does not misrepresent my statements, and tries to address the issues with my argument, and the one that is emotional and illogical. @UltraforceThank you for being the adult response. I may disagree, but that is no reason to be toxic, is it @Neroon? I appreciate intelligent conversation, and I am trying to have one here. 

 

1 hour ago, Neroon said:

You autism, well that clears something up, though you weren't depressed because of autism, that's not how that works.

https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/the-deep-emotional-ties-between-depression-and-autism/

1 hour ago, Neroon said:

People have claimed their feelings are invalid a long long time, and that still happens, by people like you, and some countries have more people like you than others.

Here is the thing. Given that I have Aspergers, I am able to remove myself from my emotions, and think logically about things. I know that my own feelings are invalid sometimes, and I am making an observation as to what I understand others feelings to be (as per what they say, how they act vs signals from body language and facial expressions).

 

1 hour ago, Neroon said:

Are you fucking kidding me? You are comparing gender dysphoria to schizophrenia? You clearly have no clue what you are talking about, and this absolutely does not deserve a proper response.

 

3 hours ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

Also, why do we cater to gender dysphoria? If someone has schizophrenia, we don't engage in their hallucinations, why do we engage in a mental disorder that also involves a misrepresentation of reality?

Perhaps I should have added (another mental disorder that causes feelings that contradict with reality) to make it more clear. @Ultraforcefigured it out, as he thought about it, and didn't just see "schizophrenia" and go ape.

1 hour ago, Neroon said:

Your argument of not looking like a woman, is not just transphobic, but simply discriminating in general. If someone doesn't appear to you as you feel like people should, they aren't real. Feet too big as a woman (cis or trans) well you are not a woman. Too masculine? Yup not a woman. Can't carry a child? Not a woman.

I make my judgments of reality based on how people look, as again, I cannot read emotions easily. For me, it is usually obvious. One thing to keep in mind is ultimately my basis of male and female is XX and XY, and Man and Woman also follow those guidelines. I have tried to be careful with my language in order to avoid offending anyone, and again, have an adult discussion.

1 hour ago, Neroon said:

Do you have any idea how offensive you are too so many people? The fact you are posting 2 images here, just baffles my mind, as if that is gonna proof jack shit. I can post images of women here, and have you guess who are 'real' women or not according to you, and you would fail miserably due to you own misguided notions of how people are supposed to look.

"Generally, students with autism have rigid patterns of thinking. Their tendency to follow rules and routines often causes problems for adaptive functioning, including daily living skills, communication, and social interactions."

1 hour ago, Neroon said:

Guess what? It only makes it worse, but instead of having numbers of trans people committing suicide, you just have numbers of people committing suicide. 

You are basically arguing to not know why people kill themselves, so that you don't have to face the truth that people like you invalidating trans people, is the cause of suicides.

That is illogical. I am not arguing that. The start of this discussion was based on trans people, transitioning, and the related rates of suicide (though, to specify, the study shown was unable to make a conclusion that is based on rates before and after transitioning, only after). Can't get more "numbers of trans people committing suicide" than "numbers of trans people committing suicide".

 "Alexithymia and emotion regulation difficulties are commonly seen in individuals with ASD and in mood disorders."

Often times, my emotions get way overblown, or they are inconsistent with reality. Those feelings are invalid. I don't understand how finding out that your mental disorder is causing you to have feelings that are inconsistent with reality is so traumatic. 

 

 

[Ultraforce]

18 minutes ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

 

There are 2 kinds of responses. The adult one, that does not misrepresent my statements, and tries to address the issues with my argument, and the one that is emotional and illogical. @UltraforceThank you for being the adult response. I may disagree, but that is no reason to be toxic, is it @Neroon? I appreciate intelligent conversation, and I am trying to have one here. 

 

Just to know I think it's perfectly understandable and makes sense for @Neroon to not be completely logical, they have close family who are trans and go to a meeting place with trans people so its a lot more personal and emotional to them then to you or I. I know that I respond more emotionally and illogically when I end up arguing with some matters regarding people with uteri's reproductive health because I really strongly believe that guys shouldn't have a say and I know that a woman has died in Canada for thinking abortion was illegal in the 90s and people with a uterus are going to die if there's no proper access to that healthcare. As a result I get emotionally charged and might not properly respond to an argument because I'm upset.

When I was in middle school I ended up similarly getting emotionally wound up and angry about religion as while I was agnostic atheist, the death of a close relative and the things a priest said about her made me quite angry when someone talked about heaven or hell for a year.

Oh similarly vaccine causes autism but that's because the whole thing is so stupid I feel like I'm getting an aneurysm, luckily I don't hear that often.

It might suck but given that this is a forum thread that started as a safe space for people to talk about their coming out story I think it's understandable a lot of people have very strong feelings about this and the LGBTQ+ community and especially the trans community have had to deal with a lot of crap from people in power.

While for the photos I disagree with it being obvious and bone structure I know in middle and high school there were a lot of people who I didn't know, but I had seen so from looking at them I would tend to mentally think : guy, girl, and then there was not sure since even ignoring trans people, both passing and non-passing there's also people whose gender expression is just different. There can be girls and guys who wear similar clothing and hairstyles such that it's only from other encounters that you would know that oh this person is a guy or a girl. That type of observation isn't taking out the calipers and diagnosing someone, it's just talking to someone and getting a feeling. There's also of course the option of just asking.

I remember the first guy I remember meeting face to face who was trans, I only found out because we were doing a birthday party out in the woods, and he said he was going to go back to the birthday girl's house to take a piss rather than the forest. The fact that they were trans only came up the once and myself and another person who didn't know them well were like oh, didn't know, thanks for telling us. Nothing changed about the party as a result, everyone still through the water balloons at each other the way they would have to anyone else.

TL;DR Different things are really important to other people, and it's worth noting that due to the oppression and mistreatment faced by the LGBTQ+ community with even organizations trying to remove the trans community from LGBT+ events that it can be emotionally topic for people with close friends and family where they shouldn't be expected to be focused on the paragon of logic and instead deal more so with the emotional truths that the groups face.

Honestly, I don't feel like these are mine really to post, but I was troubled by the never fully change into a woman that as no one else had responded I might as well. In this case responding is just because you were quite nice and polite to me that I think mentioning a bit how when talking about a major element of peoples lives that people will, and it makes sense for them to respond emotionally. Wish everyone the best and definitely think I'll avoid using the LTT discord given milkerfish's experience. It seems like a not particularly good place from that. Also, Lucky Star is a great anime, though also one that has really shown its age in terms of it heavily being about the anime and voice actors that someone in the 2000s might be aware of(I watched it having only seen Haruhi and missed a lot of references.)

Thank you everyone for your time,

Ultraforce

[Neroon]

2 hours ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

 

There are 2 kinds of responses. The adult one, that does not misrepresent my statements, and tries to address the issues with my argument, and the one that is emotional and illogical. @UltraforceThank you for being the adult response. I may disagree, but that is no reason to be toxic, is it @Neroon? I appreciate intelligent conversation, and I am trying to have one here. 

 

https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/the-deep-emotional-ties-between-depression-and-autism/

Here is the thing. Given that I have Aspergers, I am able to remove myself from my emotions, and think logically about things. I know that my own feelings are invalid sometimes, and I am making an observation as to what I understand others feelings to be (as per what they say, how they act vs signals from body language and facial expressions).

 

 

Perhaps I should have added (another mental disorder that causes feelings that contradict with reality) to make it more clear. @Ultraforcefigured it out, as he thought about it, and didn't just see "schizophrenia" and go ape.

I make my judgments of reality based on how people look, as again, I cannot read emotions easily. For me, it is usually obvious. One thing to keep in mind is ultimately my basis of male and female is XX and XY, and Man and Woman also follow those guidelines. I have tried to be careful with my language in order to avoid offending anyone, and again, have an adult discussion.

"Generally, students with autism have rigid patterns of thinking. Their tendency to follow rules and routines often causes problems for adaptive functioning, including daily living skills, communication, and social interactions."

That is illogical. I am not arguing that. The start of this discussion was based on trans people, transitioning, and the related rates of suicide (though, to specify, the study shown was unable to make a conclusion that is based on rates before and after transitioning, only after). Can't get more "numbers of trans people committing suicide" than "numbers of trans people committing suicide".

 "Alexithymia and emotion regulation difficulties are commonly seen in individuals with ASD and in mood disorders."

Often times, my emotions get way overblown, or they are inconsistent with reality. Those feelings are invalid. I don't understand how finding out that your mental disorder is causing you to have feelings that are inconsistent with reality is so traumatic. 

 

 

You literally used photographs pictures to shame them for not looking feminine enough, you then compared their dysphoria to schizophrenia, and you call anyone who can't have children, not a real man or woman. You want an intelligent discussion, then write up something intelligent without shaming people for who they are.

You come in here, a LGBT topic, to tell trans people that they are not really who they are, that they have a mental illness. You have no respect for them, and you are part of a still way too large systematic problem where conservatives try to tell people who they should be, instead of who they are.

 

You don't get to take the moral high ground here and claim I'm being toxic here. I don't see you asking people here why they feel different, trying to understand them, you are just pushing your conservative agenda on people who come here to talk about who they are. Highly disrespectful.

 

What is your point of that research? More likely is not the same as the reason why you have it. If someone asks a person with ASD why they are depressed, having autism is the incorrect answer. But it's the same thing you said before. You believe depression is caused by autism, just like suicide is caused by having bottom surgery. Even though the reality is that while both ASD and gender dysphoria makes it harder to navigate life, and thus makes it easier to be depressed, it is still caused by other factors.

 

Think of it this way, think of a very unsafe car, like 50 years old, now imagine a brand new safe car. You get in a car crash and get seriously injured. Is the cause of that the car you were driving, or the person (whether that be you or someone else), that caused the crash?

 

Btw I want to point out that aspergers has not been a diagnosis for many years now. It's all ASD now for a very good reason. In the old system they had various autism diagnosis based on how well you function, but that's odd, because no one is a high functioning broken leg patient, no one has high functioning BPD or anything like that.
On top of that due to the knowledge we have these days, more and more people got that diagnosis, because we don't live in the 50s anymore. So they changed it to ASD.

 

You remove yourself from emotions? That's not autism. That's antisocial personality disorder (aka sociopathy). Autism is having trouble dealing and understanding yours and others emotions. I mean you could have both, but if it's just autism, than yes you absolutely have emotions. As for reading body language, that's something everyone does.

 

Please enlighten me which other mental disorder would fit. But before you do, let me tell you that you are wrong. You should go read up on what gender dysphoria is, and how it is that it exists in the first place. But here is the short version. We don't know, there is no evidence at all that this is caused by the environment, and is known to many already between the age of 4 and 6. So there is no evidence that this is developed, meaning they were born with it. 

 

What is known is that during birth things can go.. well let's say different. Now considering you don't believe in trans as something real vs a mental illness, let's talk intersex. People who are born with both male and female 'parts'. So is that a mental illness according to you? Is it a mental illness if someone was born with a vagina and penis, and the penis was removed, and they really question their gender later in life? Or would you think that is actually real?

If that's a thing, how can you claim being trans isn't real, that it's a disorder, a mental illness that can be cured? That helping them transition is not the right choice?

The fact is that nothing backs up your claims here. I'm sure there is some christian camp out there where they pray the trans out of people, but in reality there is nothing, there is no cure... because there is nothing to cure. 

 

What is your opinion on gay people? I mean if trans is a mental illness, then surely being gay is? Because nature intended cis men and women to reproduce. So everything besides that is wrong right? It's a disorder?

 

The thing is you try to simplify the 'problem', because I assume that's how you perceive this. And because you don't accept being trans as something that is just is, but something that is wrong, that needs to fixed or cured or whatever, you close of any possibility that you are wrong, because you can't fathom that the truth is not logical for you.

 

I explained why fully transitioning is not the answer for everyone to have a happy life. Those results are not proof that transitioning shouldn't be done, those results proof that it's not a magical fix for actual mental health problems.

 

There is a psychiatrist who streams on Twitch and also has a lot of videos on Youtube, Dr. K, and there is something interesting he claims, and while there are still many who don't believe in this, I do believe this to be true in almost all cases.

Which is that clinical depression usually doesn't last longer than say a few months. And obviously a lot of people will comment that this is not true, because they or others, have been depressed for years.

The thing is that generally people are still depressed, because their life is shit, and everyone would feel horrible if you had nothing going on in your life, if you had no friends, no job etc, who wouldn't feel depressed right? But the question is, do you have no friends or job because of the depression, or is it the other way  around?

So generally speaking, people no longer feel depressed, when they are among people again, feel like they offer value etc. Now when I help someone today with that, they will start feeling better from this day forward. But if no one does, their depression could lasts for years. 

So what is the cause here?

 

So to get that back to gender dysphoria, if that's the only real thing causing issues for them, transitioning would make them feel great, because it's the last thing you need to have it all going for you. But if their life is complete shit, than transitioning won't make it all good, because they will still feel like shit. Buit like I have written before, their hope is lost.

 

 

Your argument was that transitioning doesn't help, it does, but it can be that last bit of hope they were hanging on to,

 

 

Oh and I speak from experience when I say that I see people drastically change from transitioning, and the above mentioned arguments, are the ones I've seen from people, I've seen people become much happier, but also see people fall in a deep dark hole because it didn't take away the pain.

 

 

Btw I'm no longer engage you any further, because by engaging you, I'm helping you make this space less safe.

[SansVarnic]

Let me put this out there.

 

Having opposing positions is not a reason to lose civility in a discussion nor is it a reason to drum up unnecessary accusations. The rules of the forum still apply in the Off-Topic Section, including this thread.

 

Behave yourselves and keep your emotions in check.

[Quackers101]

spoilers

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Neroon said:

try to tell people who they should be, instead of who they are.

while this is a topic that can go into a rabbit hole, into the many version of "what one is" or "what one wants to be" or "change or can't be changed" and a lot of other things. also that in being recognized, how people think, how themselves think or view themselves and so on, which can be extra hard when doing a massive jump like going through transitioning, to going further into a topic below. As seen in asian countries like japan etc, and crossdressing, to whatever that can have on being recognized and for what.

1 hour ago, Neroon said:

 But if no one does, their depression could lasts for years. 

So what is the cause here?

Also every problem can have a different solution, and not everything being the same.

Which also with transitioning can be messy or if doctors only target x problems to be solved or to recommend transitioning?

As with depression, some might feel more depressed when trying to help or failure of medication or what medication helps the best and if one just need to try another one. Medication like that is nothing to scoff at, same with transitioning, one being more recommended than the other, and can change their life for better or for worse.

1 hour ago, Neroon said:

What is your opinion on gay people? I mean if trans is a mental illness, then surely being gay is? Because nature intended cis men and women to reproduce. So everything besides that is wrong right? It's a disorder?

 

 

I explained why fully transitioning is not the answer for everyone to have a happy life. Those results are not proof that transitioning shouldn't be done, those results proof that it's not a magical fix for actual mental health problems.

1 hour ago, Neroon said:

 But if their life is complete shit, than transitioning won't make it all good, because they will still feel like shit. Buit like I have written before, their hope is lost.

 

Your argument was that transitioning doesn't help, it does, but it can be that last bit of hope they were hanging on to,

 

Oh and I speak from experience when I say that I see people drastically change from transitioning, and the above mentioned arguments, are the ones I've seen from people, I've seen people become much happier, but also see people fall in a deep dark hole because it didn't take away the pain.

There is no silver bullet, but like you say, it could be nicer to stay on the positive side and like being online where things get too much negative emotions going that's not going to help anyone. One thing you are wrong with is like that about "cis" people, that men and women is no longer going to mean what it means. Even if everyone has their own version of what a "man" or "women" is. Also why some people seemingly for random reasons accept one trans person over another, or if they find it fits their version of said gender and if they are straight. But to say that everyone has to accept a reality that doesn't quite fit them? of course attacking in any direction is not a good thing. Also what reality? that some people just for one reason or another accept this new reality, again it doesn't mean that one has to be hostile or attacking them for this new reality to be accepted or come with terms with. But this brings me to the future of hope, where we get tools that can help with the ideas, thoughts and identities we want. Any reality that we seek or to solve, where transitioning has less flaws, restrictions than benefits. *cyberlinking to the other gendered body* *transform cell reconstruction* 

 

sorry maybe too much rambling, that I forgot sometimes what I wanted to say.

[Neroon]

22 minutes ago, Quackers101 said:

spoilers

  Hide contents

while this is a topic that can go into a rabbit hole, into the many version of "what one is" or "what one wants to be" or "change or can't be changed" and a lot of other things. also that in being recognized, how people think, how themselves think or view themselves and so on, which can be extra hard when doing a massive jump like going through transitioning, to going further into a topic below. As seen in asian countries like japan etc, and crossdressing, to whatever that can have on being recognized and for what.

Also every problem can have a different solution, and not everything being the same.

Which also with transitioning can be messy or if doctors only target x problems to be solved or to recommend transitioning?

As with depression, some might feel more depressed when trying to help or failure of medication or what medication helps the best and if one just need to try another one. Medication like that is nothing to scoff at, same with transitioning, one being more recommended than the other, and can change their life for better or for worse.

There is no silver bullet, but like you say, it could be nicer to stay on the positive side and like being online where things get too much negative emotions going that's not going to help anyone. One thing you are wrong with is like that about "cis" people, that men and women is no longer going to mean what it means. Even if everyone has their own version of what a "man" or "women" is. Also why some people seemingly for random reasons accept one trans person over another, or if they find it fits their version of said gender and if they are straight. But to say that everyone has to accept a reality that doesn't quite fit them? of course attacking in any direction is not a good thing. Also what reality? that some people just for one reason or another accept this new reality, again it doesn't mean that one has to be hostile or attacking them for this new reality to be accepted or come with terms with. But this brings me to the future of hope, where we get tools that can help with the ideas, thoughts and identities we want. Any reality that we seek or to solve, where transitioning has less flaws, restrictions than benefits. *cyberlinking to the other gendered body* *transform cell reconstruction* 

 

sorry maybe too much rambling, that I forgot sometimes what I wanted to say.

So transitioning isn't about changing who you are, but rather how you and others perceive you. This might seem like the same thing, but it's actually quite different. Mind you that I do absolutely realize that even trans people mix these 2.

If you were born with a penis, but always felt like a woman, you are a woman, but until you start transitioning, others won't perceive you as one.

As was rightly pointed out, you can't change your chromosomes etc, but you can obviously change your appearance, and we all do that btw, now obviously getting major surgery is far more impactful than putting some gel in your hair and having a shave, but the point being transitioning is still about how people perceive you. They change how they look, they tell people they want to be called something else etc. But inside they are still the same person, even if hormones do change how you might react to things.

 

I think this is vital for the question who they want to be, or changing, because they are still gonna be the same person, they are not gonna change that.

 

I think a psych evaluation is mandatory, and I think in most cases some mental health support should be given to those who transition. Even if you are doing really well in life, transitioning is still huge, it's good to talk about, and there will likely be some negative comments etc. If after a few sessions it all seems good, fantastic. If not than you want to offer that support, because it's very common for them to have some real issues. To be clear, this is not trans exclusive, I would argue that most people could really use it, but in their case there are definitely more risks.

 

Anti-depressants are horrible meds. I luckily never had them, but I've seen loads of people on them, including my mom, that shit is no joke.
I would never argue that depressions are easy, but it's important to identify what is needed. The answer to depression in general is very simple, but doing it is really hard. The answer is going out of the house, get therapy, get a job, find some activities. Super easy answer right? But obviously crazy hard if you are very depressed.

So the cause for the depression to continue, is their inability to do those things. You don't need to be a professional to know what a depressed person needs. But they probably need a professional to support them to do those things.

 

I said that men and women are no longer going to mean what it means? I don't recall saying anything like that.

 

People need to accept the reality that this is real, kids as young as 4-6 year olds, even 20 years ago when there was no talk about trans on TV, went to their parents and told them they weren't a boy/girl, and that didn't change later on. This is not made up. Denying this, would be saying the Earth is flat. Sure some people believe it to be true, but it doesn't make it true.

And I know people want to argue it, but there is a danger to letting these arguments go, is that people might believe them. We have medical professionals, mental health professionals, and so many people who are trans, saying this is real, but a bunch of people who don't have the expertise, who have this conservative notion that it's not true, keep arguing that they are all wrong, and well if enough people say it's wrong, well then it must be legitimate right?
At what percentage of people saying the earth is flat, does it become legitimate? Because that's what we are talking about.

 

And remember, while people who believe in a flat earth, are not discriminated (though you might not get a job if you tell them in the interview that the earth is flat), people are discriminated all over the world, both by citizens, as governments/leaders, that who they are is wrong, and have less rights etc.

[DANK_AS_gay]

17 hours ago, Neroon said:

You believe depression is caused by autism, just like suicide is caused by having bottom surgery.

You claim that I am the one pushing agendas, yet here you are telling me what I believe.

 

14 hours ago, Neroon said:

ow obviously getting major surgery is far more impactful than putting some gel in your hair and having a shave,

As was my point. My point wasn't "don't be trans" it was "be careful, this may not be the perfect solution, and it is a pretty big operation"

Later I was trying to understand how people feel by saying

19 hours ago, DANK_AS_gay said:

Often times, my emotions get way overblown, or they are inconsistent with reality. Those feelings are invalid. I don't understand how finding out that your mental disorder is causing you to have feelings that are inconsistent with reality is so traumatic.

As an open question of sorts. Perhaps @milkerfishcan describe their situation for me/ help me understand, or link to the page in this forum.

also

17 hours ago, Neroon said:

You literally used photographs pictures to shame them for not looking feminine enough, you then compared their dysphoria to schizophrenia, and you call anyone who can't have children, not a real man or woman.

1. False

2. Yes, but then I explained why, which you have ignored

3. I clarified on this point, which you once again ignored

I will clarify point 1, but likely you will ignore it, as you did the rest. I got the pictures to help demonstrate why the transition may not be a perfect solution. Because if there are still signs that you are the other sex left, you are still left with the feeling of being in the wrong body, even after an expensive and extensive operation. If I wanted to shame people, I would pick one of the hundreds of "IT'S MA'AM" memes that the actual "conservatives" spam. That would be easy. But I chose someone who at least somewhat looked like the sex they were trying to imitate, to represent someone who actually can transition mostly successfully. 

17 hours ago, Neroon said:

Btw I want to point out that aspergers has not been a diagnosis for many years now. It's all ASD now for a very good reason. In the old system they had various autism diagnosis based on how well you function, but that's odd, because no one is a high functioning broken leg patient, no one has high functioning BPD or anything like that.
On top of that due to the knowledge we have these days, more and more people got that diagnosis, because we don't live in the 50s anymore. So they changed it to ASD.

My diagnosis is "Moderate to Severe High Functioning Autism". So the whole "high functioning being gone" thing is false.

 

17 hours ago, Neroon said:

Those results are not proof that transitioning shouldn't be done, those results proof that it's not a magical fix for actual mental health problems.

Congrats, you have reached my (intended) point.

 

17 hours ago, Neroon said:

You remove yourself from emotions? That's not autism. That's antisocial personality disorder (aka sociopathy).

"But she adds, ‘I help other people to the extent that it’s a detriment to myself. And actually one of the most common features of autistic people is that they have an innate sense of justice – they can’t stand to see injustice around them, even if it’s not directed at them.’"

Part of that (for me) is being as bipartisan as possible. You cannot be fair with your emotions involved. SoIi avoid getting my emotions involved in discussions like these at all costs.

"The myth of the unfeeling autistic person has also been given oxygen thanks to studies suggesting that, compared with ‘normal people’, those with autism are less prone to contagious yawning – interpreted by some researchers as an automatic marker of empathy. For example, in 2007 a team led by Atsushi Senju at Birkbeck College reported that 25 neurotypical children yawned more while watching yawning videos, whereas 24 children with autism did not."

17 hours ago, Neroon said:

Think of it this way, think of a very unsafe car, like 50 years old, now imagine a brand new safe car. You get in a car crash and get seriously injured. Is the cause of that the car you were driving, or the person (whether that be you or someone else), that caused the crash?

My statement wasn't clear. The title of that article is "The ties between Autism and Depression". I know they aren't the same thing, but I also know that it does contribute to it.

17 hours ago, Neroon said:

and is known to many already between the age of 4 and 6

In the exploratory stage of development, where they push their boundaries to determine the rules. That has been the case since the beginning of time. It would be easy to say that being trans is a developmental abnormality caused by improper parental care. But I am also not going to do that, as it would actually be disrespectful.

 

17 hours ago, Neroon said:

The thing is you try to simplify the 'problem', because I assume that's how you perceive this. And because you don't accept being trans as something that is just is, but something that is wrong, that needs to fixed or cured or whatever, you close of any possibility that you are wrong, because you can't fathom that the truth is not logical for you.

If your mental health is determined by other people's views of you, you are going to have some pretty awful mental health. The part that is a problem is the instability involved. 

17 hours ago, Neroon said:

Your argument was that transitioning doesn't help, it does, but it can be that last bit of hope they were hanging on to,

 

 

Oh and I speak from experience when I say that I see people drastically change from transitioning, and the above mentioned arguments, are the ones I've seen from people, I've seen people become much happier, but also see people fall in a deep dark hole because it didn't take away the pain.

That's what I'm saying. This whole time we were agreeing and arguing on semantics. (mine was without experience, but that was what I thought would happen) I am saying that rushing a doctor who is trying their best to help you, with far more experience is not a good idea. 

17 hours ago, Neroon said:

Btw I'm no longer engage you any further, because by engaging you, I'm helping you make this space less safe.

 

17 hours ago, Neroon said:

People who are born with both male and female 'parts'. So is that a mental illness according to you? Is it a mental illness if someone was born with a vagina and penis, and the penis was removed, and they really question their gender later in life? Or would you think that is actually real?

Why ask questions then say you don't want an answer?

Anywho, the answer for that question is this: trans people are already a minority, and the very very few people who have the XXY or whatever other variations are the people who need this the most, I would argue that they will have mental health issues, but that they also get priority (in the queues for HRT and other therapies), since their issues are more immediate.