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Nvidia Pitches Advantages of G-Sync Over AMD's FreeSync

BiG StroOnZ

Prove it, I know for sure that their demo was running on some Toshiba laptops which used free-sync which was based on eDP technology.

 

You are not reading what I write. Both Gsync and Adaptive Sync uses Variable VBlank technology. Variable Vblank was never invented for synced framerates, only for power savings. Adaptive sync, is a standard, which means it has to not only define, how to use the variable VBlank, it also includes the handshake standard, between the monitor and graphics card, plus the defined 9-240hz.

 

It is common knowledge, that AMD is responsible for the Adaptive Sync standard (you just mentioned the proof of concept yourself, before AS was even a thing). Variable Vblank and Adaptive Sync is not the same. Adaptive Sync, just uses Variable Vblanks technology, but in a different way, than what it was designed for.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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Well, yes and no. It's worse because you're locked into an ecosystem, but can also be better as you wouldn't have the same money spent on RnD if it was for an open standard...take freesync vs gaunt, the proprietary solution is the better performer (albeit at a worse price/performance). And if nvidia made gaunt an open standard like freesync it would be safe to assume it wouldn't perform the same way it does now.

How exactly is the cost of R&D in open standard higher ???  

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You are not reading what I write. Both Gsync and Adaptive Sync uses Variable VBlank technology. Variable Vblank was never invented for synced framerates, only for power savings. Adaptive sync, is a standard, which means it has to not only define, how to use the variable VBlank, it also includes the handshake standard, between the monitor and graphics card, plus the defined 9-240hz.

 

It is common knowledge, that AMD is responsible for the Adaptive Sync standard (you just mentioned the proof of concept yourself, before AS was even a thing). Variable Vblank and Adaptive Sync is not the same. Adaptive Sync, just uses Variable Vblanks technology, but in a different way, than what it was designed for.

Exactly they used the Variable Vblanks technology that was available in eDP, they didn't invent the technology, there free-sync was based on eDP.

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How exactly is the cost of R&D in open standard higher ???

It's not that the cost is higher, it's that the return is lower.

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It's not that the cost is higher, it's that the return is lower.

How ???

 

sorry for these question but I'm confused.

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Exactly they used the Variable Vblanks technology that was available in eDP, they didn't invent the technology, there free-sync was based on eDP.

 

I've never stated otherwise, but like I said, variable Vblank, was invented for power savings in eDP. Changing it to be used for synced framerates, is still AMD's doing. The standard that is Adaptive Sync is still defined/made by AMD. And Gsync also uses Variable Vblanks.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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But that's the point you aren't getting. The G-Sync standard is actually 1-240Hz but the current G-Sync panels currently only support 30-144Hz. So they are listing G-Sync in the comparison as only 30-144Hz but yet they are listing their "theoretical" limit instead. Rather than listing what monitors are actually capable of. Whereas they are listing what G-Syncs monitors are capable of, not the actual G-Sync standard.

Actually the longest time that the G-Sync module can hold a single frame is 33.3 ms (30 Hz). We won't see G-Sync displays under that refresh rate unless Nvidia does some tweaking to their hardware. The 144 Hz limit is not a G-Sync limitation but a limitation of panels. So G-Sync technically has a 30-144+ Hz range although the window is not as big as FreeSync. Personally I don't see the problem as 30 FPS has been the gold standard for smooth frame rate since forever. Anything below that warrants a GPU upgrade. FreeSync falls under the same circumstances although under 40 FPS the display reverts back to software (V-SYNC). As stated before if you have the money to invest into either of these technologies than you have the money to invest into driving the display beyond its capabilities. The XG270HU and R9 390X is going to be a sweet spot for gamers.

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G-Sync monitors can also have other inputs. It would just require slightly more engineering. There's no Freesync monitor yet with multiple inputs either, so your premise is moot.

I think there's a bit of confusion about this, but the Benq XL240G is the example of the solution, and issue, with G-sync and multiple inputs.

 

 

The Hybrid Engine G-SYNC™ Gaming Monitor

NVIDIA’s latest G-SYNC revolution requires monitor manufacturers to replace their scalar with a G-SYNC, trading in the freedom to scale settings like input frame, color hue, intensity and contrast for pure speed and the smoothness of the game. With the best efforts of our R&D champions, we’ve found a way to keep your options open with the world’s first hybrid engine design. So you are always in control of your desired gameplay.

So the point is: Scalars with AS compliant 1.2a DP ports will still work with other inputs. HDMI or DVI themselves are unlikely to support any type of dynamic refresh rate type standard, as far is known, however.

 

I think this is what he was trying to convey.

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G-Sync monitors can also have other inputs. It would just require slightly more engineering. There's no Freesync monitor yet with multiple inputs either, so your premise is moot.

 

Benq XL2730Z FreeSync

900x900px-LL-bc363028_0318151434b.jpeg

http://www.overclock.net/t/1546860/first-hands-on-experience-with-benq-xl2730z

 

Acer Predator XG270HU FreeSync

 post-8736-0-81194100-1427213584.jpg

http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-freesync-review-with-the-acer-xb270hu-monitor,6.html

 

 

Don't spread any misinformation, Please!

Also there's currently no Freesync monitor from Samsung Available yet, but i'm sure it would have multi input since there's no reason to not include it, unlike G-Sync which only have DP input,  and currently the only way for Gsync monitor to have multiple input is to have 2 boards inside, like the BenQ XL2420G

12cd3377-9767-45d5-9848-57b235ab6517.jpg

 

which of course add more to the price, and compared to other G-Sync option, it really cost a lot!

BenQ XL2420G G-Sync, 24",1080p, 144Hz = $589.99 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824014412

AOC G2460PG G-Sync, 24",1080p, 144Hz = $399.99 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824160226

 

 

 

 

 

 

post-8736-0-81194100-1427213584.jpg

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How ???

 

sorry for these question but I'm confused.

There are two reasons a company creates a proprietary standard: to guarantee performance, and to make more money. 

 

By creating a proprietary ecosystem they're forcing a consumer (who CHOOSES to take advantage of the propietary hardware/software) to buy only their products. So by opting for a propietary solution you're forced to give that company more money if you want to take advantage of their offerings. Think Nikon/Canon, they use propietary lens mounts, which means if you go with a Nikon camera, then you HAVE to get Nikon lenses (well, or one of the off brands/an adapter). 

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There are two reasons a company creates a proprietary standard: to guarantee performance, and to make more money.

By creating a proprietary ecosystem they're forcing a consumer (who CHOOSES to take advantage of the propietary hardware/software) to buy only their products. So by opting for a propietary solution you're forced to give that company more money if you want to take advantage of their offerings. Think Nikon/Canon, they use propietary lens mounts, which means if you go with a Nikon camera, then you HAVE to get Nikon lenses (well, or one of the off brands/an adapter).

Oh.. You meant that, that flew over my head.

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Adaptive Sync ≠ FreeSync and FreeSync ≠ Free but you know what, who cares? Are tech enthusiasts actually getting upset that Nvidia spent more time and money, made a superior system (however "proprietary" it is) and offers it alongside what, right now, is the inferior solution. 

G-Sync is truly the inferior solution. It offers no notable advantages over FreeSync at a price premium. Nvidia has officially become the new Ubisoft.

 

Nvidia's credibility has been slipping away massively over the past few days as their PR continue to fabricate information of how G-Sync is "superior".

  • "Our product is better at being slow."
  • "Our product was designed to eliminate ghosting."
  • "Our product is far too cheap."

While not a single one of them stand true or is a stupid argument to begin with.

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Until we see reviews of both solutions side-by-side we're just guessing, with a smattering of fanboying. My prediction is that the two will be indistinguishable to the naked eye, and your choice will be driven by your choice of GPU. I also expect to see the premium on G-Sync monitors to come down somewhat once Freesync monitors have been out a month or two.

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If and when Nvidia releases gsync for laptops, wouldn't nvidia have to follow the same thing by 'tuning' their drivers for panel variations in laptops since there wouldn't be any gsync modules?  I think it is ludicrous for Tom to say AMD can't keep up with panel variations for tuning drivers, when Nvidia is doing the same thing, or about to do the same thing.  Who knows, maybe they will put modules in laptops

Rock On!

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If and when Nvidia releases gsync for laptops, wouldn't nvidia have to follow the same thing by 'tuning' their drivers for panel variations in laptops since there wouldn't be any gsync modules?  I think it is ludicrous for Tom to say AMD can't keep up with panel variations for tuning drivers, when Nvidia is doing the same thing, or about to do the same thing.  Who knows, maybe they will put modules in laptops

 

Tuning of the panel, should always be in the scaler or tcon. No reason for freesync of gsync drivers to do such a thing. Would be extremely difficult and impractical. Drivers would be in the gigabytes, with millions of individual monitor settings in them. Gsync and adaptive sync does not have direct control of the crystals themselves, only the framerate.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

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.. and to think I got banned on NCIX message boards for talking about PhysX too much when all I did was show people actual proof of what Nvidia cards would give you and what AMD could not deliver.  To think even a few people got mad here at one point about me doing that when looking at this thread makes me laugh.  All this G-SYNC and FreeSync talk seems far worse in that nobody can show reviews side by side and show which is better and also who gives a crap about a little screen tearing once in awhile in some games.  I am not interested in paying a premium for monitors just to get rid of something that doesn't always show up.

Too many ****ing games!  Back log 4 life! :S

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Heyyo,

Pretty much we should all just agree that no matter what? AMD Freesync and NVIDIA's GSYNC are still better solutions that VSYNC or even Adaptive-VSYNC. :)

As for ghosting? I'd definitely say it's growing pains for Freesync.

 

 

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Heyyo,

Pretty much we should all just agree that no matter what? AMD Freesync and NVIDIA's GSYNC are still better solutions that VSYNC or even Adaptive-VSYNC. :)

As for ghosting? I'd definitely say it's growing pains for Freesync.

The amusing thing is there are G-Sync displays that have absolutely worse ghosting problems in comparison to any of the FreeSync ones listed by PcPer. Nvidia comes out saying that they personally tweak their proprietary module for every panel to avoid such situations. Meanwhile people are reporting ghosting problems even on the Swift.

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I didn't imagine that G-sync supported such a range until Tom Peterson alluded to it in the part of the interview I quoted him on earlier. Do you happen to know where this information has been published though, I couldn't find anything when I searched?

 

Could you please supply a source for that? Tom from Nvidia has stated, that the tech only support 30-144hz.

 

 

Actually the longest time that the G-Sync module can hold a single frame is 33.3 ms (30 Hz). We won't see G-Sync displays under that refresh rate unless Nvidia does some tweaking to their hardware. The 144 Hz limit is not a G-Sync limitation but a limitation of panels. So G-Sync technically has a 30-144+ Hz range although the window is not as big as FreeSync. Personally I don't see the problem as 30 FPS has been the gold standard for smooth frame rate since forever. Anything below that warrants a GPU upgrade. FreeSync falls under the same circumstances although under 40 FPS the display reverts back to software (V-SYNC). As stated before if you have the money to invest into either of these technologies than you have the money to invest into driving the display beyond its capabilities. The XG270HU and R9 390X is going to be a sweet spot for gamers.

 

im pretty sure thats the limitation of the asic card they put in. asic cards need to be really specific in their function so if nvidia want to support a wider range they have to redesign the asic card. but if you say pretty much no monitor has a higher refresh than 144hz and anything under 30 or 40 hz cause flickering so the range is not needed i would agree with you

 

 

Here:

 

 

 

Forbes: Let’s talk about the minimum response times that both G-Sync and Adaptive Sync support.

Tom Petersen: “First of all, the spec ‘Adaptive Sync’ has no minimum. Both have the ability to communicate any range, so there’s nothing about the base specs that are different. What’s interesting though, is the reason there are panel-specific refresh limits. LCD images decay after a refresh, you kinda paint the screen and it slowly fades. That fade is just related to the panel. The reason there’s an Adaptive Sync spec and G-Sync module is because that lower limit is variable depending on the technology inside the panel. But games don’t know about that! So what do you do when a game has a lower FPS than the minimum rate you want to run your panel? Because when they run below that minimum rate things start to flicker, and that’s a horrible experience.”

 

Tom Petersen: “I can’t go into too much detail because it’s still one of our secret sauces. But our technology allows a seamless transition above and below that minimum framerate that’s required by the panel. PC Perspective wrote an article guessing how we did that, and they’re not that far off…”

 

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2015/03/23/nvidia-explains-why-their-g-sync-display-tech-is-superior-to-amds-freesync/2/

 

I'm sorry, but this little bit of AMD marketing crap needs to stop being repeated. The adaptive sync spec range is 9-240, and AMD is repeating it to make themselves look better than the competition. If NV did the same, they could probably claim 1-240 (as they have a functional method to push lower than any panel physical limit). The AMD claimed spec is nowhere near what any panels are going to be capable of for a very long time - it's just what the interface standard supports. If NV claimed 1-240 as if it was so much better than everything else, everyone here would be calling BS (myself included), so you guys should really stop repeating that spec in that context. The real specs are those of the available panels for FreeSync, and for G-Sync (with it understood that they rate at the minimum of the panel but are capable of pushing lower with a method not (yet?) employed by FreeSync). I say 'yet' because if AMD's driver devs were sharp enough, they could implement frame redraws at the driver / GPU level.

 

 

 

 

You used 9-240 to make a point. It's an irrelevant spec. Use something real like 40-144 (the widest range of an available FreeSync panel), but stop using 9-240, which is just the interface spec. G-Sync actually sends frames as low as 1 per second, but you don't see me using their theoretical interface spec of 1-240 as a counter to your use of 9-240.

 

http://www.overclock.net/t/1546934/various-amd-freesync-reviews/740

 

 malventano works at PCPer and has inside contacts at NVIDIA and of course this information is very similar to what Tom is saying in the interview with Forbes that I quoted first. So it's not like it is made up.

             

 

        

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Here:

 

 

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2015/03/23/nvidia-explains-why-their-g-sync-display-tech-is-superior-to-amds-freesync/2/

 

 

 

http://www.overclock.net/t/1546934/various-amd-freesync-reviews/740

 

 malventano works at PCPer and has inside contacts at NVIDIA and of course this information is very similar to what Tom is saying in the interview with Forbes that I quoted first. So it's not like it is made up.

 

so nvidia can support ranges of 1-240hz even though they dont have a monitor that has that range but amd cant have 9-240hz because they dont have monitors that have that range 

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How many people here have used G-Sync and Free-Sync side by side to compare?

 

If you haven't, all you can go off of is what reviewers are saying about it in their tests. PCPer isn't going to outright lie to everyone about their tests. LMG has samples, so they'll also be doing tests I reckon.

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Here:

 

 

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2015/03/23/nvidia-explains-why-their-g-sync-display-tech-is-superior-to-amds-freesync/2/

 

 

 

http://www.overclock.net/t/1546934/various-amd-freesync-reviews/740

 

 malventano works at PCPer and has inside contacts at NVIDIA and of course this information is very similar to what Tom is saying in the interview with Forbes that I quoted first. So it's not like it is made up.

Tom Peterson didn't mention a specific number and Allyn Malventano's off hand comments isn't a credible enough form me to consider it to be real. Sorry if it's a pain, just curious if the 1-240 thing was already widely know.

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so nvidia can support ranges of 1-240hz even though they dont have a monitor that has that range but amd cant have 9-240hz because they dont have monitors that have that range 

 

Yes you are correct.

 

 

Tom Peterson didn't mention a specific number and Allyn Malventano's off hand comments isn't a credible enough form me to consider it to be real. Sorry if it's a pain, just curious if the 1-240 thing was already widely know.

 

No he didn't mention a specific number, but he did mention that it is capable. And Allyn just confirms that with solid numbers. Plus, if you read on Tom says the following, "PC Perspective wrote an article guessing how we did that, and they’re not that far off…” So PCPer figured out how they did it, and got solid numbers out of it, Tom confirms that by saying they are not far off. If you don't want to consider it credible enough, I guess I can understand but I would respect the information given by people who work in the industry.

 

Here's more sources, pertaining to the upper ranges, in case you need more proof (since I already gave you my 1Hz source):

 

 

 

The upper bound is limited by the panel/TCON at this point, with the only G-Sync monitor available today going as high as 6.94ms (144Hz). NVIDIA made it a point to mention that the 144Hz limitation isn’t a G-Sync limit, but a panel limit.

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7582/nvidia-gsync-review

             

 

        

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How many people here have used G-Sync and Free-Sync side by side to compare?

 

If you haven't, all you can go off of is what reviewers are saying about it in their tests. PCPer isn't going to outright lie to everyone about their tests. LMG has samples, so they'll also be doing tests I reckon.

 

I'm pretty sure @Slick is going to do some creative testing, given they have at least one of each to try everything out with. Doesn't Linus have three ROGs to boot? Its not like they're gonna leave it alone. They'll test. 

 

People here can't even remember that not everyone has access to either yet. They are still prohibitively expensive for anyone who doesn't just throw away every last cent on computer hardware. Normal people are going to hold off, they'll wait, they look at reviews to help. 

 

So sue us for acknowledging that and using the existing information we have as opposed to testing the forums experts. 

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.....Who cares? Make it work for little to no extra cost to the customer, that's what is important here.

Ketchup is better than mustard.

GUI is better than Command Line Interface.

Dubs are better than subs

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