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PC vs PS4 vs XboxOne

HmmR

420 bucks considering you dont have to pay for online play.

 

Thats a good deal.

 

Cheaper games on the pc , I would take that deal.

Still no OS  <_<  <_<

 

See the PS store, they have great deals, the PS+ is also a great service, they offer games to play for free for 30 days and the tittles they offer are actually pretty good, they offer more deals at cheaper prices if you have PS+, you don't have to pay online for some games like destiny, I agree paying to play online is shitty and I h8 it m8 i r8 1/8.

  ﷲ   Muslim Member  ﷲ

KennyS and ScreaM are my role models in CSGO.

CPU: i3-4130 Motherboard: Gigabyte H81M-S2PH RAM: 8GB Kingston hyperx fury HDD: WD caviar black 1TB GPU: MSI 750TI twin frozr II Case: Aerocool Xpredator X3 PSU: Corsair RM650

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60$ a month ?? it's 50$ for a whole year and it adds additional benefits too, you get to play some great tittles for 30 days for free, get additional deals on games, I know paying to play online is shitty m8 I h8 too but PS+ is a great service.

I derped, I meant 60 a year. Also the Xbone doesn't get that

 

 

Still no OS  <_<  <_<

r/softwareswap is just as safe/legit as a store. Also part of the beauty of the PC is that you can "Purchase" things like that

 

 

1.Here you GO please read to the ending.

2. Having a better experience doesn't mean anything, some G2A keys are from MSDN accounts, G2A isn't a trusted re seller, have you ever thought why those places sell a lot cheaper than other places ??? those places are shady very shady and you can't deny that.

3. That's impressive.

4. Nope, PS4 actually uses high settings in it's games see this video on Metro LL and read the article if you want too

 

 

60$ a month ?? it's 50$ for a whole year and it adds additional benefits too, you get to play some great tittles for 30 days for free, get additional deals on games, I know paying to play online is shitty m8 I h8 too but PS+ is a great service.

1. Aesthetics has absolutely no place in this debate as that is both personal and irrelevant and the comfort thing, it's really easy to get comfortable with wired peripherals in the living room

2. I can deny that. r/Softwareswap is not shady or something like that

3. Yes it is though personally I would spend a few bucks more on a slightly better PSU

4. Not in every game, I've seen plenty examples where PC > Xbone/PS4 at medium (also 720p high does not count, that's basically 1080p low/medium)

 

Yeah I derped on that, I meant 60 a year. Still you get those titles for 30 days, PC can get them permanently (Assuming non-exclusive) for a handful of dollars often or 10-20, TONNES cheaper than console, especially in the long run

RIG: I7-4790k @ 4.5GHz | MSI Z97S SLI Plus | 12GB Geil Dragon RAM 1333MHz | Gigabyte G1 Gaming GTX 970 (1550MHz core/7800MHz memory) @ +18mV(Maxed out at 1650/7800 so far) | Corsair RM750 | Samsung 840 EVO 120GB, 1TB Seagate Barracuda | Fractal Design Arc Midi R2 (Closed) | Sound Blaster Z                                                                                                                        Getting: Noctua NH-D15 | Possible 250GB Samsung 850 Evo                                                                                        Need a console killer that actually shits on every console? Here you go (No MIR/Promo)

This is why you should not get an FX CPU for ANY scenario other than rendering on a budget http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/286142-fx-8350-r9-290-psu-requirements/?p=3892901 http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/266481-an-issue-with-people-bashing-the-fx-cpus/?p=3620861

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I derped, I meant 60 a year. Also the Xbone doesn't get that

 

 

r/softwareswap is just as safe/legit as a store. Also part of the beauty of the PC is that you can "Purchase" things like that

 

 

1. Aesthetics has absolutely no place in this debate as that is both personal and irrelevant and the comfort thing, it's really easy to get comfortable with wired peripherals in the living room

2. I can deny that. r/Softwareswap is not shady or something like that

3. Yes it is though personally I would spend a few bucks more on a slightly better PSU

4. Not in every game, I've seen plenty examples where PC > Xbone/PS4 at medium (also 720p high does not count, that's basically 1080p low/medium)

 

Yeah I derped on that, I meant 60 a year. Still you get those titles for 30 days, PC can get them permanently (Assuming non-exclusive) for a handful of dollars often or 10-20, TONNES cheaper than console, especially in the long run

I said I choose the PS4 in a recent post for our little discussion.

 

How do you know that some keys aren't stolen ??? they are MSDN keys ??? or school keys -forgot what there called maybe you know- ??? 

 

1. Fair enough after all it's subjective.

2. How isn't it shady ?? the prices there are so low.

3. No comment.

4. 900P for PS4, 720P is only for the xbone.

 

Those free games for 30 days are a benefit and those tittles are great, again when you have PS+ you have extra discounts and deals on games and those deals are great, it's the same if you buy them you have them 4 ever.

 

 

Out of topic steam sucks and GOG is da best.

  ﷲ   Muslim Member  ﷲ

KennyS and ScreaM are my role models in CSGO.

CPU: i3-4130 Motherboard: Gigabyte H81M-S2PH RAM: 8GB Kingston hyperx fury HDD: WD caviar black 1TB GPU: MSI 750TI twin frozr II Case: Aerocool Xpredator X3 PSU: Corsair RM650

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I said I choose the PS4 in a recent post for our little discussion.

 

How do you know that some keys aren't stolen ??? they are MSDN keys ??? or school keys -forgot what there called maybe you know- ??? 

 

1. Fair enough after all it's subjective.

2. How isn't it shady ?? the prices there are so low.

3. No comment.

4. 900P for PS4, 720P is only for the xbone.

 

Those free games for 30 days are a benefit and those tittles are great, again when you have PS+ you have extra discounts and deals on games and those deals are great, it's the same if you buy them you have them 4 ever.

 

 

Out of topic steam sucks and GOG is da best.

2. The cost to even allow selling of those keys is crazy. People at r/software swap usually buy in bulk, not via a retailer, and get them very cheap that way

3. No problem found here

4. 900p is still not 1080p which is kinda the point of comparison you should have

 

Out of topic steam still has great sales and yes things ilke GoG rule.

 

As said before, the initial cost is not what makes PC cheaper. It's down the road just a bit. You should factor that $50 a year into the PC budget

RIG: I7-4790k @ 4.5GHz | MSI Z97S SLI Plus | 12GB Geil Dragon RAM 1333MHz | Gigabyte G1 Gaming GTX 970 (1550MHz core/7800MHz memory) @ +18mV(Maxed out at 1650/7800 so far) | Corsair RM750 | Samsung 840 EVO 120GB, 1TB Seagate Barracuda | Fractal Design Arc Midi R2 (Closed) | Sound Blaster Z                                                                                                                        Getting: Noctua NH-D15 | Possible 250GB Samsung 850 Evo                                                                                        Need a console killer that actually shits on every console? Here you go (No MIR/Promo)

This is why you should not get an FX CPU for ANY scenario other than rendering on a budget http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/286142-fx-8350-r9-290-psu-requirements/?p=3892901 http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/266481-an-issue-with-people-bashing-the-fx-cpus/?p=3620861

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>posts PC vs Console poll on a forum with a majority of PC gamers

 

Current Build: (protege) Core i7-4790k @ 4.7GHz (1.264v) | Corsair H75 | Gigabyte GA-G1.SNIPER Z97 | MSI GeForce GTX 970 4(3.5)gb Twin Frozr (Soon to be 380x) | Corsair RM750 Laptop: AMD A6-4400m | Toshiba 500gb HD | Radeon HD 7520g

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PC gaming CAN be cheaper, but doesn't mean it always is. 

I've had my Xbox Live account for 5 years, and have had a 360/One respectively. Over 5 years, all my expenses (including Live) across two consoles have added up to ~2000 dollars. Thats 400 a year on average to entertain myself. Thats across a good 4 dozen games, some that I even bought DLC for; its not like I was starving. 

My PC? That was 1500 on its own as a fresh build. Sure, not everyone builds that kind of PC but we need to stick with facts instead of hyperbole. Steam says I have spent 800 in games there, not including the 250 I spent on Star Citizen and the 110 on BF4 and 110 on BF3. So thats 2,770 on my PC gaming all in over the same 5 years, more or less. So thats 554 a year on average I spent on my PC. I spent roughly a grand a year on entertaining myself. 

Cheaper? No. Not how I game and what I specifically game in. Leaving console gaming doesn't suddenly give me loads of money like some people claim. It doesn't make my PC rig suddenly much more power, since its already fairly powerful. 

Unless I forgot how to do math, console gaming would've been easier on my wallet, if I cared. I enjoy everything (or try to). My brother is largely the same, he just spent less on his PC. I don't know why people get so hellbent on this "issue". Gaming is never a cheap proposition for me, or for many. But w/e, I'm happy to let people spend how they wish. I wish people cared less about how people spend their own goddamn money. 

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2. The cost to even allow selling of those keys is crazy. People at r/software swap usually buy in bulk, not via a retailer, and get them very cheap that way

3. No problem found here

4. 900p is still not 1080p which is kinda the point of comparison you should have

 

Out of topic steam still has great sales and yes things ilke GoG rule.

 

As said before, the initial cost is not what makes PC cheaper. It's down the road just a bit. You should factor that $50 a year into the PC budget

2. But getting keys as cheap as 20$ or even 10$ and still make profit from them ??

3. Yep no problem here.

4. Yep I know it isn't but I don't think high 1080p would be low or medium 900p.

 

Now if I have PS+ I don't actually have to buy a lot of games as I get great games free for 30 days, fair point but you don't have to buy it, I haven't bought it yet and don't need to as I only play PES 2015, Infamous Second Son, P.T. -still haven't finished the game so scary-, destiny, planning to buy GTA V.

 

I'm starting to realize that in price the PC has the advantage in the long run, in price argument the PC may win in some conditions, I think the price argument the PC will win in some conditions.

 

I still think console has their advantages but price may not be one -always-.

  ﷲ   Muslim Member  ﷲ

KennyS and ScreaM are my role models in CSGO.

CPU: i3-4130 Motherboard: Gigabyte H81M-S2PH RAM: 8GB Kingston hyperx fury HDD: WD caviar black 1TB GPU: MSI 750TI twin frozr II Case: Aerocool Xpredator X3 PSU: Corsair RM650

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2. But getting keys as cheap as 20$ or even 10$ and still make profit from them ??

3. Yep no problem here.

4. Yep I know it isn't but I don't think high 1080p would be low or medium 900p..

2. That's what you can do when you bulk buy

4. I think you mean that vice-versa :P

 

The PC wins in money-wise, that has been proven but there are reason for that

RIG: I7-4790k @ 4.5GHz | MSI Z97S SLI Plus | 12GB Geil Dragon RAM 1333MHz | Gigabyte G1 Gaming GTX 970 (1550MHz core/7800MHz memory) @ +18mV(Maxed out at 1650/7800 so far) | Corsair RM750 | Samsung 840 EVO 120GB, 1TB Seagate Barracuda | Fractal Design Arc Midi R2 (Closed) | Sound Blaster Z                                                                                                                        Getting: Noctua NH-D15 | Possible 250GB Samsung 850 Evo                                                                                        Need a console killer that actually shits on every console? Here you go (No MIR/Promo)

This is why you should not get an FX CPU for ANY scenario other than rendering on a budget http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/286142-fx-8350-r9-290-psu-requirements/?p=3892901 http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/266481-an-issue-with-people-bashing-the-fx-cpus/?p=3620861

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Too many factors to consider with the whole console vs PC so I'll just say my 2 cents.

 

I'd pick PC for an all round experience and time killer, the price to accessibility ratio is far superior to that of consoles (browse the web, specific tasks such as documenting, photo editing that sort.)

 

For gaming only? if I was on a budget, console. If im not then PC, but thats just because Im used to a keyboard and mouse.

 

If I was a casual gamer and didnt mind about graphics and FPS (I actually dont care for FPS) then consoles

 

If I want to have friends over every now and then and smash Mario Kart or Smash Bros then console, because you cant do that on PC.

 

There is far too many variables to consider making this thread irrelevant, yes there are people who think one side is far superior than the other, and they are wrong.

 

Casual gaming, extremely tight budget, having friends over - Consoles

 

Everything else - PC

 

 

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2. That's what you can do when you bulk buy

4. I think you mean that vice-versa :P

 

The PC wins in money-wise, that has been proven but there are reason for that

Not for me, prices are higher for PC PARTS, consoles are like 100-200$ cheaper for the build you posted with the OS not included.

  ﷲ   Muslim Member  ﷲ

KennyS and ScreaM are my role models in CSGO.

CPU: i3-4130 Motherboard: Gigabyte H81M-S2PH RAM: 8GB Kingston hyperx fury HDD: WD caviar black 1TB GPU: MSI 750TI twin frozr II Case: Aerocool Xpredator X3 PSU: Corsair RM650

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Not for me, prices are higher for PC PARTS, consoles are like 100-200$ cheaper for the build you posted with the OS not included.

Like I said, it's not about the initial cost, it's about the cost over time

 

Also you really should include the 8 years of $50 a year just for online multiplayer giving you a healthy budget of $800

RIG: I7-4790k @ 4.5GHz | MSI Z97S SLI Plus | 12GB Geil Dragon RAM 1333MHz | Gigabyte G1 Gaming GTX 970 (1550MHz core/7800MHz memory) @ +18mV(Maxed out at 1650/7800 so far) | Corsair RM750 | Samsung 840 EVO 120GB, 1TB Seagate Barracuda | Fractal Design Arc Midi R2 (Closed) | Sound Blaster Z                                                                                                                        Getting: Noctua NH-D15 | Possible 250GB Samsung 850 Evo                                                                                        Need a console killer that actually shits on every console? Here you go (No MIR/Promo)

This is why you should not get an FX CPU for ANY scenario other than rendering on a budget http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/286142-fx-8350-r9-290-psu-requirements/?p=3892901 http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/266481-an-issue-with-people-bashing-the-fx-cpus/?p=3620861

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Like I said, it's not about the initial cost, it's about the cost over time

 

Also you really should include the 8 years of $50 a year just for online multiplayer giving you a healthy budget of $800

I don't have to buy it like I said, I play games that don't require online and destiny doesn't require me to have PS+ to play online, if I did have PS+ I wont have to buy games for that whole year, if I did the games are actually cheap.

  ﷲ   Muslim Member  ﷲ

KennyS and ScreaM are my role models in CSGO.

CPU: i3-4130 Motherboard: Gigabyte H81M-S2PH RAM: 8GB Kingston hyperx fury HDD: WD caviar black 1TB GPU: MSI 750TI twin frozr II Case: Aerocool Xpredator X3 PSU: Corsair RM650

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Like I said, it's not about the initial cost, it's about the cost over time

 

Also you really should include the 8 years of $50 a year just for online multiplayer giving you a healthy budget of $800

You don't know how much time I would have to wait to collect 800$.

  ﷲ   Muslim Member  ﷲ

KennyS and ScreaM are my role models in CSGO.

CPU: i3-4130 Motherboard: Gigabyte H81M-S2PH RAM: 8GB Kingston hyperx fury HDD: WD caviar black 1TB GPU: MSI 750TI twin frozr II Case: Aerocool Xpredator X3 PSU: Corsair RM650

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Didn't vote, retard grammar on last question.

 

PC gaming CAN be cheaper, but doesn't mean it always is. 

I've had my Xbox Live account for 5 years, and have had a 360/One respectively. Over 5 years, all my expenses (including Live) across two consoles have added up to ~2000 dollars. Thats 400 a year on average to entertain myself. Thats across a good 4 dozen games, some that I even bought DLC for; its not like I was starving. 

My PC? That was 1500 on its own as a fresh build. Sure, not everyone builds that kind of PC but we need to stick with facts instead of hyperbole. Steam says I have spent 800 in games there, not including the 250 I spent on Star Citizen and the 110 on BF4 and 110 on BF3. So thats 2,770 on my PC gaming all in over the same 5 years, more or less. So thats 554 a year on average I spent on my PC. I spent roughly a grand a year on entertaining myself. 

Cheaper? No. Not how I game and what I specifically game in. Leaving console gaming doesn't suddenly give me loads of money like some people claim. It doesn't make my PC rig suddenly much more power, since its already fairly powerful. 

Unless I forgot how to do math, console gaming would've been easier on my wallet, if I cared. I enjoy everything (or try to). My brother is largely the same, he just spent less on his PC. I don't know why people get so hellbent on this "issue". Gaming is never a cheap proposition for me, or for many. But w/e, I'm happy to let people spend how they wish. I wish people cared less about how people spend their own goddamn money. 

Thanks Captain Obvious.

 

Obviously it would not be cheaper if you buy many games not on sale and/or buy those overpriced games + all the DLC.  (buy more ships)

 

And here you are still pretending to not understand the point of anything.

If your(and others') purchase of potatoes didn't contribute to retardation of gaming, no one would have cared; except that's not what actually happens.

 

 

You don't know how much time I would have to wait to collect 800$.

I don't care.
 
Because you don't have to drop $800 upfront for PC either.

Anyone who has a sister hates the fact that his sister isn't Kasugano Sora.
Anyone who does not have a sister hates the fact that Kasugano Sora isn't his sister.
I'm not insulting anyone; I'm just being condescending. There is a difference, you see...

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PC has the broadest game selection and gives you the flexibility to use Keyboard & Mouse, wide variety of controllers, steering wheels, foot controllers, etc. The experience can be personalized entirely and deliver specifically to your needs.

 

PC has the best exclusive games. Until Civilization V and MMOs like Wildstar or WoW are on console, it loses in terms of exclusives. Also friggin' Garry's Mod, not to mention all the mods you can get for every single other game. I've spent more time in mods on PC than I have in games on my PS3 in the past few months.

 

As far as entertainment goes, that depends on how you entertain yourself. Most of my entertainment comes from watching YouTube videos and surfing the web and reading about various things. I cannot stand web browsing interfaces on consoles so I'd rather use a computer every day of the week for these. However I use my PS3 for Netflix and I do prefer that to browsing Netflix on a PC. Although I'm considering building an HTPC (probably using an Athlon 5150 and AM1 ITX board) and getting a media streaming service for it that can be configured with a remote

Intel i5-4690K @ 3.8GHz || Gigabyte Z97X-SLI || 8GB G.Skill Ripjaws X 1600MHz || Asus GTX 760 2GB @ 1150 / 6400 || 128GB A-Data SX900 + 1TB Toshiba 7200RPM || Corsair RM650 || Fractal 3500W

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Well I own some consoles and a good gaming PC.

IMO consoles are great for PC noobs(there are too many) and you have also exclusive titles and those are great(most times). Now consoles getting more PC like so we also see games that were exclusive on PC going to be playable on consoles too.(Xbox mostly/// near future a cut down Windows on XBox?)

The PC is just the best option. You get a PC + Gaming Machine(If running Windows) + a big bill to pay for the whole thing. Since steam has early access and Greenlight it's even better to own a PC. Play the newest games, Alphas, Betas and so on(I like to see a game getting better/evolve). Mod games if you want(steam workshop). I miss these small things on consoles. Besides that upgradeability(on PC... you have to).

 

I don't think PC has the "best" exclusives or ps4(I'd like to play Kingdom Hearts or Rachet&Clank^^) or Xbox(Halo). PC has just the most exclusives, but who buys just those exclusive titles? Same on consoles. Just buy that what fits in and you are fine.
I used consoles(Gamecube,Sega Megadrive, PS2, 360) for years and I barely even touched my PC(besides that it was crap^^) I like consoles for easy usage, a PC just doesn't have it THAT easy(consoles=no difficult, Windows=easy, MAC=easy/medium, Linux/Unix=hard). I think the new consoles are not worth the money. Old consoles are the best consoles. Better get a PC for the price of a new console. I think that way since 360 and ps3. If you are able to set up a Windows know steam, uplay and origin you are good to go for PC gaming.

 

For entertaiment stuff I use my notebook over a !VGA! cable to my TV^^ and If I watch DvD's I use my 360. I gonna get myself a raspberry pi 2(35$ PC + Windows10) soon and it has a HDMI output. Let's see how much power it has :) 

 

I see this topic ends in a fiasko.
All gramma mistakes are under copyright! Don't even try to quote them. :D

MfG Legion495

9 of 10 voices in my mind say I'm crazy. The tenth hums the melody of Tetris.

 

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Didn't vote, retard grammar on last question.

Thanks Captain Obvious.

Obviously it would not be cheaper if you buy many games not on sale and/or buy those overpriced games + all the DLC. (buy more ships)

And here you are still pretending to not understand the point of anything.

If your(and others') purchase of potatoes didn't contribute to retardation of gaming, no one would have cared; except that's not what actually happens.

I don't care.

Because you don't have to drop $800 upfront for PC either.

How are you not banned yet?

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Didn't vote, retard grammar on last question.

Thanks Captain Obvious.

Obviously it would not be cheaper if you buy many games not on sale and/or buy those overpriced games + all the DLC. (buy more ships)

And here you are still pretending to not understand the point of anything.

If your(and others') purchase of potatoes didn't contribute to retardation of gaming, no one would have cared; except that's not what actually happens.

I don't care.

Because you don't have to drop $800 upfront for PC either.

Did you read what I was responding too?? Of course not you just jump in.

  ﷲ   Muslim Member  ﷲ

KennyS and ScreaM are my role models in CSGO.

CPU: i3-4130 Motherboard: Gigabyte H81M-S2PH RAM: 8GB Kingston hyperx fury HDD: WD caviar black 1TB GPU: MSI 750TI twin frozr II Case: Aerocool Xpredator X3 PSU: Corsair RM650

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Did you read what I was responding too?? Of course not you just jump in.

Of course I did.

You were saying it's too hard to get 800 paid upfront.

How are you not banned yet?

Because it has not been many years since you have been banned.

Anyone who has a sister hates the fact that his sister isn't Kasugano Sora.
Anyone who does not have a sister hates the fact that Kasugano Sora isn't his sister.
I'm not insulting anyone; I'm just being condescending. There is a difference, you see...

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Wii U

Smash.

"I believe that if life gives you lemons, you should make lemonade... And try to find somebody whose life has given them vodka, and have a party."

-Ron White
 

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Of course I did.

You were saying it's too hard to get 800 paid upfront.

Because it has not been many years since you have been banned.

He told me counting me paying to play online and that parts are more expensive here it equities to 800$ for a nice rig, while I can get 800$ it will take a long to collect the 800$ to build a rig with.

  ﷲ   Muslim Member  ﷲ

KennyS and ScreaM are my role models in CSGO.

CPU: i3-4130 Motherboard: Gigabyte H81M-S2PH RAM: 8GB Kingston hyperx fury HDD: WD caviar black 1TB GPU: MSI 750TI twin frozr II Case: Aerocool Xpredator X3 PSU: Corsair RM650

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He told me counting me paying to play online and that parts are more expensive here it equities to 800$ for a nice rig, while I can get 800$ it will take a long to collect the 800$ to build a rig with.

 

Sorry but who is posting 800 dollar builds even?

 

Last time i checked the build i posted was 420 and it outperforms consoles with a r7 265 easily.

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Sorry but who is posting 800 dollar builds even?

Last time i checked the build i posted was 420 and it outperforms consoles with a r7 265 easily.

Not you the other guy who cars about you, your builds were great but they weren't 350$ and let's make it 320$ as you can get windows from /something for 20$, so make a rig better than console for 320$ not even you can make it.

  ﷲ   Muslim Member  ﷲ

KennyS and ScreaM are my role models in CSGO.

CPU: i3-4130 Motherboard: Gigabyte H81M-S2PH RAM: 8GB Kingston hyperx fury HDD: WD caviar black 1TB GPU: MSI 750TI twin frozr II Case: Aerocool Xpredator X3 PSU: Corsair RM650

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Sorry but who is posting 800 dollar builds even?

Last time i checked the build i posted was 420 and it outperforms consoles with a r7 265 easily.

But arguing about price PC will win as if you payed more you could have a rig better than consoles in U.S.

I would like to get in other points in why consoles are better.

  ﷲ   Muslim Member  ﷲ

KennyS and ScreaM are my role models in CSGO.

CPU: i3-4130 Motherboard: Gigabyte H81M-S2PH RAM: 8GB Kingston hyperx fury HDD: WD caviar black 1TB GPU: MSI 750TI twin frozr II Case: Aerocool Xpredator X3 PSU: Corsair RM650

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He told me counting me paying to play online and that parts are more expensive here it equities to 800$ for a nice rig, while I can get 800$ it will take a long to collect the 800$ to build a rig with.

Again, 800 isn't necessary upfront.

Anyone who has a sister hates the fact that his sister isn't Kasugano Sora.
Anyone who does not have a sister hates the fact that Kasugano Sora isn't his sister.
I'm not insulting anyone; I'm just being condescending. There is a difference, you see...

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