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Weirdybeardyman

Are there any good amp/dac's for around £50

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Posted · Original PosterOP

That comment wasn't in reference to quality, just the standings the companies have. Syba has been in business producing products before Aaron took out his loan.

Hehe :) fair enough.

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This is a bit of a ridiculous disscussion when audio experience can be quite subjective.

 

Audio experience is subjective. Audio fidelity is, by definition, objective.

 

 

Have fun with that brick wall bby? 

 

It's marginally more interesting than the normal order of business around here.

 

 

A Syba is a random, cheap dac.

 

Is it specifically the chap DACs bout mentioned? If not, then hardly relevant.

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Audio experience is subjective. Audio fidelity is, by definition, objective.

*And can be objectified through physics. 

 

 

It's marginally more interesting than the normal order of business around here.

I know, right. Some how I was dragged into it. Lucky for me, responsibilities require me to bounce in five.

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Audio experience is subjective. Audio fidelity is, by definition, objective.

It's marginally more interesting than the normal order of business around here.

Is it specifically the chap DACs bout mentioned? If not, then hardly relevant.

I feel like you just defeated your own point, if audio fidelity is objective and higher quality equiptment scientifcally produces better audio fidelity then blind tests are pointless because they are subjective and science is objective.

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I feel like you just defeated your own point, if audio fidelity is objective and higher quality equiptment scientifcally produces better audio fidelity then blind tests are pointless because they are subjective and science is objective.

 

Blind tests aren't subjective, they are objective. That's the point and why they are an important part of science.

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Blind tests aren't subjective, they are objective. That's the point and why they are an important part of science.

Blind tests are as objective as human tests can be, but humans interpret things differently which means a humans observation of something is more subjective than science because people can view things differently in a blind test.

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Do you get the point I am making?

I am not invalidating blind tests but if audio fidelity is completely objective then surely the fact that a piece of equiptment scientifically has better quality then blind tests should not be necassary.

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Blind tests are as objective as human tests can be, but humans interpret things differently which means a humans observation of something is more subjective than science because people can view things differently in a blind test.

 

The primary purpose of a blind test is to remove bias. Is an "audible" difference that was heard in sighted listening still there after a blind test? This application of blind testing is clearly objective.

 

A blind test can't necessarily determine if a difference equates to one thing being better - subjective preference - but it can be used to determine what the majority of a sample of people prefer.

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Do you get the point I am making?

I am not invalidating blind tests but if audio fidelity is completely objective then surely the fact that a piece of equiptment scientifically has better quality then blind tests should not be necassary.

 

Objective measurements may reveal a difference, blind testing determines whether that difference is audible and thus useful.

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Posted · Original PosterOP

The primary purpose of a blind test is to remove bias. Is an "audible" difference that was heard in sighted listening still there after a blind test? This application of blind testing is clearly objective.

A blind test can't necessarily determine if a difference equates to one thing being better - subjective preference - but it can be used to determine what the majority of a sample of people prefer.

I get what your saying but isn't 'prefer' an opinion and subjective? I apologize for being a bit thick and I don't wanna be too argumentitive and pick at your individual words, im just curious about your opinion.

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I get what your saying but isn't 'prefer' an opinion and subjective? I apologize for being a bit thick and I don't wanna be too argumentitive and pick at your individual words, im just curious about your opinion.

 

I'm making two points about blind tests.

 

One, they can be used to answer the question "is there a difference". If you have two amps, and want to know if they sound different, a blind test can answer that question without bias.

 

Two, they can be used to remove sources of bias when answering the question "which do people prefer". In a non-blind test, people might be influenced by factors besides sound, such as the design or price. A blind test removes these factors, leaving only the preference for one sound over the other. In other words, you're determining something subjective objectively. This second case is one that gets overlooked a lot - just because something is "subjective" doesn't mean that it can't or shouldn't be examined objectively.

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Posted · Original PosterOP

I'm making two points about blind tests.

One, they can be used to answer the question "is there a difference". If you have two amps, and want to know if they sound different, a blind test can answer that question without bias.

Two, they can be used to remove sources of bias when answering the question "which do people prefer". In a non-blind test, people might be influenced by factors besides sound, such as the design or price. A blind test removes these factors, leaving only the preference for one sound over the other. In other words, you're determining something subjective objectively. This second case is one that gets overlooked a lot - just because something is "subjective" doesn't mean that it can't or shouldn't be examined objectively.

Yeh sure, I agree with both of those points.

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It's not relatively that hard to produce devices with low noise floors. Fiio products are known as cheap, crazy low output impedance (except the Qogir), and high SNR, most (if not all) above 100dB. If anyone is paying $200-$300 more just to get lower noise floor, then that guy/gal is seriously getting ripped off. 

 

Blind tests are as objective as human tests can be, but humans interpret things differently which means a humans observation of something is more subjective than science because people can view things differently in a blind test.

 

Blind tests, especially in this context, serves as proofs for a claim. It's both subjective and objective.

 

It's subjective in that 'this guy can pass the blind tests with flying colors, while that guy fails the blind tests miserably'. 

 

It's objective in that 'I claim that these two things are different, and the fact that I passed the (proper) blind tests proofs that I can tell the difference'

 

In a nutshell, it's like:

- Hey my amp is better than your amp

- Oh really? Proof it!!

 

That's where the blind tests come in

 

It's not that hard to set up a proper blind tests. Most of the times it needs 2 people, 1 is the test subject and the other is the operator, but a few methods can be done with just 1. 

 

Testing amps is much easier to be done objectively than testing headphones (because of the different shapes that can give it away). Just need an ABX selector, either buy one or make one: http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/217479-diystereo-io-ab-selector-image-heavy/The crucial part is the volume/loudness matching. 

 

Here's a fun game to 'blind test' your ears: https://www.goldenears.philips.com/en/login.htmlYou can do it as a guest, but the progress won't be saved. Best is to sign up. Use throw-away email if you want to

 

It's a set of quizzes and knowledge base about audio and sounds. The quizzes are the blind tests. The funny thing is, a lot of 'audiophiles' can't finish the tests all the way to the end. The tests were originally designed as a training and testing method for worker in Philips (audio dept)

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Posted · Original PosterOP

It's not relatively that hard to produce devices with low noise floors. Fiio products are known as cheap, crazy low output impedance (except the Qogir), and high SNR, most (if not all) above 100dB. If anyone is paying $200-$300 more just to get lower noise floor, then that guy/gal is seriously getting ripped off.

Blind tests, especially in this context, serves as proofs for a claim. It's both subjective and objective.

It's subjective in that 'this guy can pass the blind tests with flying colors, while that guy fails the blind tests miserably'.

It's objective in that 'I claim that these two things are different, and the fact that I passed the (proper) blind tests proofs that I can tell the difference'

In a nutshell, it's like:

- Hey my amp is better than your amp

- Oh really? Proof it!!

That's where the blind tests come in

It's not that hard to set up a proper blind tests. Most of the times it needs 2 people, 1 is the test subject and the other is the operator, but a few methods can be done with just 1.

Testing amps is much easier to be done objectively than testing headphones (because of the different shapes that can give it away). Just need an ABX selector, either buy one or make one: http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/217479-diystereo-io-ab-selector-image-heavy/The crucial part is the volume/loudness matching.

Here's a fun game to 'blind test' your ears: https://www.goldenears.philips.com/en/login.htmlYou can do it as a guest, but the progress won't be saved. Best is to sign up. Use throw-away email if you want to

It's a set of quizzes and knowledge base about audio and sounds. The quizzes are the blind tests. The funny thing is, a lot of 'audiophiles' can't finish the tests all the way to the end. The tests were originally designed as a training and testing method for worker in Philips (audio dept)

Those tests are very cool.

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Those tests are very cool.

 

snippsters

 

My favorite blind tests are the one's where the subjects think they are hearing gear A compared to gear B, but only actually hear gear A - yet they imagine all sorts of subjective differences of the same gear with itself. These are the most revealing of the power of bias and why it is so important to minimize it.

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Posted · Original PosterOP

My favorite blind tests are the one's where the subjects think they are hearing gear A compared to gear B, but only actually hear gear A - yet they imagine all sorts of subjective differences of the same gear with itself. These are the most revealing of the power of bias and why it is so important to minimize it.

Yeh, it is interesting psudo phsycology.

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At the end of the day, OP, it is your money.

 

If you want a cheap audio solution then plug a cheap pair of speakers/headphones into your mobo audio and call it a day.

If you want a cheap amp/DAC, then by all means, go with the Syba.

If you want a truly great audio experience, get a Schiit stack or a combination O2/ODAC for the best in ~$200 audio.

 

Audio is the most subjective human sense (arguably more so than taste) and objectivity is nearly impossible in the realm of sound. I.e. some people love tube amps, others hate them.

I don't really care if @SSL wants to bludgeon me with with double blind tests and say that I'm hearing things or if @creatip123 wants to diss ultra low noise floors. I know what I hear and to me, that's all that matters. Recording engineers will tell you that a $1000 Preamp is far better than a $100 one, and I'm more inclined to believe them over the wannabe audio expert hacks on this forum.

 

Just whatever you do. :lol:

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You seem bent, but just so you know, they are giving the same advice I would if I gave any degree of shit. 

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At the end of the day, OP, it is your money.

 

If you want a cheap audio solution then plug a cheap pair of speakers/headphones into your mobo audio and call it a day.

If you want a cheap amp/DAC, then by all means, go with the Syba.

If you want a truly great audio experience, get a Schiit stack or a combination O2/ODAC for the best in ~$200 audio.

 

Audio is the most subjective human sense (arguably more so than taste) and objectivity is nearly impossible in the realm of sound. I.e. some people love tube amps, others hate them.

I don't really care if @SSL wants to bludgeon me with with double blind tests and say that I'm hearing things or if @creatip123 wants to diss ultra low noise floors. I know what I hear and to me, that's all that matters. Recording engineers will tell you that a $1000 Preamp is far better than a $100 one, and I'm more inclined to believe them over the wannabe audio expert hacks on this forum.

 

Just whatever you do. :lol:

 

A lot of fallacies here, some of which I've already addressed, i.e. subjective preferences vs objective fidelity.

 

Recording engineers are no more immune to bias than anyone else. The very O2 design that you are touting has been claimed to be indistinguishable from a $1000 Benchmark amp in blind testing. Does that mean the Benchmark is useless snake oil that no one should buy? Not necessarily. But I reiterate that it is not enough to just say that the difference is "obvious".

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I know what I hear and to me, that's all that matters. 

 

That's the whole point. That sentence alone is true, and I agree with it. Problem is, you're mistaking subjectivity with objectivity.

 

What works for you doesn't automatically means it work for others. There's never a 100% guarantee, but you can take an educated guess of how big the probability is.

 

I can hear the difference between different materials of jacks, i.e. gold plated vs rhodium plated, but the difference is so astronomical that I got to strain my ears 90% of the time, and I have yet to score/pass a proper blind test. That's why I don't go around saying, 'oh you should definitely get rhodium jacks...' because the probability of people in general can hear the differences is small.

 

I prefer/love tube devices, either tube dac, tube amp, or both. Solid state amps now sound too 'digital' and hollow to me. But I know that's my subjectivity, so I don't go around saying, 'solid state is shit, tubes are the way to go', because I know it's a matter of taste, not absolute truth. 

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That's the whole point. That sentence alone is true, and I agree with it. Problem is, you're mistaking subjectivity with objectivity.

 

What works for you doesn't automatically means it work for others. There's never a 100% guarantee, but you can take an educated guess of how big the probability is.

 

I can hear the difference between different materials of jacks, i.e. gold plated vs rhodium plated, but the difference is so astronomical that I got to strain my ears 90% of the time, and I have yet to score/pass a proper blind test. That's why I don't go around saying, 'oh you should definitely get rhodium jacks...' because the probability of people in general can hear the differences is small.

 

I prefer/love tube devices, either tube dac, tube amp, or both. Solid state amps now sound too 'digital' and hollow to me. But I know that's my subjectivity, so I don't go around saying, 'solid state is shit, tubes are the way to go', because I know it's a matter of taste, not absolute truth. 

Shut up and refer to a one of my previous statements. 

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Shut up and refer to a one of my previous statements. 

 

Damn, mods did a cleanup job here, didn't they. Gotta present that eutopic public image of the "community".

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Damn, mods did a cleanup job here, didn't they. Gotta present that eutopic public image of the "community".

You arent smiling? Why arent you smiling?
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Those tests are very cool.

 

Try it. It's fun, and good for giving your ears an exercise. Your ears will become sharper for small sound details, guaranteed, providing the test materials are all new to you. If you do get to the end, they will give you a 'certificate' of achieving the golden ears. Give yourself a pat in the back, because like said earlier, lots of 'audiophiles', especially self-proclaimed ones, can't finish the tests. It's funny, because those tests are actually considered the basics (like I said, it's originally a training/tests for Philips workers). 

 

My favorite blind tests are the one's where the subjects think they are hearing gear A compared to gear B, but only actually hear gear A - yet they imagine all sorts of subjective differences of the same gear with itself. These are the most revealing of the power of bias and why it is so important to minimize it.

 

Yeh, it is interesting psudo phsycology.

 

Yeah. Technically and logically, it wouldn't be a blind test anymore. Maybe reversed blind test? What I'm thinking: a blind test is trying to perceive something that should be there. This test is trying to see if anyone can imaginarily perceive something that's never there all along. 

 

To elaborate to the OP, this is an example of said test:

 

- get 2 decent cheap amps and 1 expensive/renowned amp. 

- leave 1 of the cheap amps intact, take apart the other cheap amp and the expensive amp

- put the inner of the cheap amp into the casing of the expensive amp, wire everything together inside

- put them on the desk side by side, and have the test subjects do listening tests between the two

- most people would definitely say the cheap amp in the casing of the expensive amp to sound oh-so-much-better

- when the secret is revealed, watch in amusement as they try to find flaws in the test to justify their errors in judgment...

 

Somebody has done this before, but can't find the link to it...

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