Australian National Broadband Network Discussion

[dylandylandylan]

You guys should consider yourself lucky, here in New Zealand, we're running off one cable that runs from one of our ISPs to Australia, and that is all of our internet. Our infrastructure down here is so horrible, it sucks. 

[SubTract]

Firstly who on earth said anyone is removing the copper. The NBN doesn't touch the copper, it just stays there and its up to telstra to decide what to do with it. Plus this just shows how much you read. I said the money that will be used to pay the money back is money earned from the NBN, not a single dollar from tax is used. As for personal cost, to get connected it could be completely free. The connection devices are all paid for by the government, as are the connection to the house and installation. You then can decide if you want a new modem or not, depending on what you have now you could be all good or you may not feel the need to upgrade as you may get good enough speeds (if thats what the user wants). So the is no cost at all that is not already in the plans. Also no I am not getting ripped off. I pay as much as anyone else with an equal contract, except for the fact that the copper in my area is falling apart. 

With this debt crap stop watching the news and actually do some research on the matter, you will see that this debt business is a whole bunch on garbage. Abbott is kicking and screaming trying to do everything he can to try and make labor look bad, and it just so happens that the mass media are controlled by people who benefit heavily when liberals are in, it has always happened and always will. You will never get the true facts from the news outlets. Sure we have a little debt but does it matter, not in the slightest, the amount of debt is almost nothing (comparatively) and has no importance, would you rather live in a country that has good infrastructure or live in a country that is super rich but has horrible infrastructure. If you prefer the latter I will direct you to some Asian and Africa countries who will be willing to take you in. 

 

Sorry, But Really?, Really? & Really??? do you actually believe any of that?

 

You Said they we're going to remove copper from use.

What on earth do you think tax is used for? It is used to pay for things.... EVERYTHING.... If somebody actually says that Tax payers pay for EVERYTHING. whether directly, at the time or afterward in someway or another.

Getting connected to anything is not free. The government does NOT pay to have the fibre connected from the road to the house, The government does NOT pay for your optical decoder & The government does NOT pay for your modem. They also do NOT pay for your contract establishment fee, or termination if your current contract hasn't run out yet, nor do they pay for the connection fee from your ISP.

The government does not earn money, It takes money.

This is all going to cost big dollars for everybody who connects.

 

I being the person that I am, will still put all this money in because I will benefit from it greatly. But a lot of people will not. Debt is a thing. I don't know how much money you owe, but I sure as hell owe a lot of money.

Abbot is no angel, and neither options are a solution. But by saying the ACTUAL money our county owes is nothing and means nothing and then extending that blame on to Tony Abbot (Who hasn't actually gotten into power)... well that sir is on you & your seemingly best buddy, Ignorance.

 

I do not want Tony Abbot at the head of our country. Neither do most people. I don't really want Rudd their either. An Ideal situation would be for both parties to be completely overhauled. But this is not going to happen, So we have to pick a straw, and simply hope we don't pick the shortest straw.

 

You can't get the truth from media, of course not, However its just as reliable as stuff you read on the Internet, both of which are more reliable than believing anything that any politician tells us. 

[mr moose]

Firstly who on earth said anyone is removing the copper. The NBN doesn't touch the copper, it just stays there and its up to telstra to decide what to do with it. Plus this just shows how much you read. I said the money that will be used to pay the money back is money earned from the NBN, not a single dollar from tax is used. As for personal cost, to get connected it could be completely free. The connection devices are all paid for by the government, as are the connection to the house and installation. You then can decide if you want a new modem or not, depending on what you have now you could be all good or you may not feel the need to upgrade as you may get good enough speeds (if thats what the user wants). So the is no cost at all that is not already in the plans. Also no I am not getting ripped off. I pay as much as anyone else with an equal contract, except for the fact that the copper in my area is falling apart. 

With this debt crap stop watching the news and actually do some research on the matter, you will see that this debt business is a whole bunch on garbage. Abbott is kicking and screaming trying to do everything he can to try and make labor look bad, and it just so happens that the mass media are controlled by people who benefit heavily when liberals are in, it has always happened and always will. You will never get the true facts from the news outlets. Sure we have a little debt but does it matter, not in the slightest, the amount of debt is almost nothing (comparatively) and has no importance, would you rather live in a country that has good infrastructure or live in a country that is super rich but has horrible infrastructure. If you prefer the latter I will direct you to some Asian and Africa countries who will be willing to take you in. 

 

It looks like you have been reading the union/labour propaganda,  You can't blame Tony Abbot because Labor have made a mess of running the country. Labor are the government. Labor control their own party, Labor decide who the PM is, and Labor are the ones who write the budgets.  Tony Abbot is the opposition leader and all he has is his mouth, That's it, so if you think people hate Labor only because of what Tony Abbot is saying then you are crediting him with a very clever mouth and more power than Jesus.  The fact of the matter is that the average Australian is sick of Labor and their spending, this is reflected in every opinion poll taken.  If you look at how many people actually hate Tony Abbot but still want to vote Liberal should tell you all you need to know about the reality of the labor party and Australian opinion.

 

As far as the NBN goes, you'd better go a read some information about it because half of what you said is neither true nor advantageous for the average Australian.

[Muppet]

Having the NBN under Labor government is an economic must for Australia, and needs to happen if they want to turn Australia into a high tech society(Which is a target they have set), looking to the future and thinking of a plan for after the already falling mining boom. If all goes well Australia will be up there with Sweden and japan ect, also above america in terms of tech following the completion of the NBN ,imo.

Also in terms of equity, Labor plan will come to 30 billion dollars and Liberal plan will come to 29.5 billion. But Liberals plan dilivers 1/16th(approximate guess) of the speed.

With the introduction of 25 new internet company's to compete with Telstra, we should see some price drops hopefully.

Also the cost of installation will unlikely be all that high but enough.

And also its not wise to refer to a party by their leader, leaders change and its the party that makes decisions, but then again a fair bit of government monopoly has been being played recently.

[mr moose]

Having the NBN under Labor government is an economic must for Australia, and needs to happen if they want to turn Australia into a high tech society(Which is a target they have set), looking to the future and thinking of a plan for after the already falling mining boom. If all goes well Australia will be up there with Sweden and japan ect, also above america in terms of tech following the completion of the NBN ,imo.

Also in terms of equity, Labor plan will come to 30 billion dollars and Liberal plan will come to 29.5 billion. But Liberals plan dilivers 1/16th(approximate guess) of the speed.

With the introduction of 25 new internet company's to compete with Telstra, we should see some price drops hopefully.

Also the cost of installation will unlikely be all that high but enough.

And also its not wise to refer to a party by their leader, leaders change and its the party that makes decisions, but then again a fair bit of government monopoly has been being played recently.

 

I really hope your right, but I can't see Australia competing in any industry other than mining regardless of our IT infrastructure. I say this because our labour and bureaucratic costs are way too high. 

 

Just on the NBN price and speed comparison, Labor's expected cost was $43B at initial roll out and then revised down to $36B, I have not seen where it will be $30B and to be honest with all the contractor trouble they are having right now and labor's track record running major projects I seriously doubt it will com in  under $50B.  (you can quote me on that later if I am wrong) . The Liberal plan will give everyone a minimum of 25Mb/s at startup and 100Mb/s from 2016.  Which is not that different really. And considering most people will only need or be able to afford the 25Mb/s plan then there is much less difference.

 

But as I said before, don't trust either party to come good on this policy.  If labor finish their NBN you will be stuck with whatever the NBN Co. decide to charge. If Liberal do theirs then the reliability of the copper could still be an issue.

 

And don't forget, Turnbull invented the internet so we are in good hands :rolleyes: .

[Cruiseshipfan]

Sorry, But Really?, Really? & Really??? do you actually believe any of that?

 

You Said they we're going to remove copper from use.

What on earth do you think tax is used for? It is used to pay for things.... EVERYTHING.... If somebody actually says that Tax payers pay for EVERYTHING. whether directly, at the time or afterward in someway or another.

Getting connected to anything is not free. The government does NOT pay to have the fibre connected from the road to the house, The government does NOT pay for your optical decoder & The government does NOT pay for your modem. They also do NOT pay for your contract establishment fee, or termination if your current contract hasn't run out yet, nor do they pay for the connection fee from your ISP.

The government does not earn money, It takes money.

This is all going to cost big dollars for everybody who connects.

 

I being the person that I am, will still put all this money in because I will benefit from it greatly. But a lot of people will not. Debt is a thing. I don't know how much money you owe, but I sure as hell owe a lot of money.

Abbot is no angel, and neither options are a solution. But by saying the ACTUAL money our county owes is nothing and means nothing and then extending that blame on to Tony Abbot (Who hasn't actually gotten into power)... well that sir is on you & your seemingly best buddy, Ignorance.

 

I do not want Tony Abbot at the head of our country. Neither do most people. I don't really want Rudd their either. An Ideal situation would be for both parties to be completely overhauled. But this is not going to happen, So we have to pick a straw, and simply hope we don't pick the shortest straw.

 

You can't get the truth from media, of course not, However its just as reliable as stuff you read on the Internet, both of which are more reliable than believing anything that any politician tells us. 

HINT HINT, Removed from use, means being turned off. 

 

Wow really, your response is tax pays for everything, no it doesn't and this is an example of it. Also where did I blame Abbott for the money situation. I said he was he one causing it to be made out to be worse then it is.  I mean come on if you really cannot see that your looking with rose coloured glasses. Yes Labor is partly to blame for the small level of debt but in actual fact it is tiny, the country needed the money spent. By the way unless you have a crappy telecom, some have said they will continue contacts with the NBN, as in no fees, as long as you get on a NBN plan through them. 

 

Also I would like to know where you are getting this false information that the user needs to pay for the box and connections to be made. 

 

Also if people cannot see speed improvements you are short sited. Look past your own speeds and you will see the average user has 12Mbps (average speed in Australia) although many have far under and cannot get faster. 

[mr moose]

HINT HINT, Removed from use, means being turned off. 

 

Wow really, your response is tax pays for everything, no it doesn't and this is an example of it.

 

He said Tax payers pay for everything.  The government only gets its money from the people, therefore everything the government spends (borrowed or not) is paid for by the people (tax payers).   We will pay for this, the government will decide how much and what we get in return for it.

 

 

 Also where did I blame Abbott for the money situation. I said he was he one causing it to be made out to be worse then it is.

 

 

 

You said that "Tony Abbot is kicking and screaming trying to make labor look bad". The general population don't like Abbot but they hate Labor even more. So you can bet your bottom dollar when people say they don't like the debt situation, it is because the debt situation is bad, not because of what Tony Abbot says. 

 

 

 Yes Labor is partly to blame for the small level of debt but in actual fact it is tiny, the country needed the money spent

 

It is not small, the economy is a very complicated beast.  When you consider growth factors and tax revenue our debt is way too high.  I don't know what propaganda sheet you are reading from but you need to look at the bigger picture.  Australia has never needed more money to be spent, that is just not true.  Our economy has stronger ties to the Asian market. It was china's demand for resources that kept us afloat from 2008. The labor stimulus packages did nothing but ensure we have no money now when the Asian market starts to slow.   

 

A brief history of the last 5 years of Australia consumer confidence, polling, economic investment/growth will show you just how badly we are doing.

 

 

 

 

Also if people cannot see speed improvements you are short sited. Look past your own speeds and you will see the average user has 12Mbps (average speed in Australia) although many have far under and cannot get faster. 

 

Wow, now tell us something we don't know.  There is lot more to the NBN than just better speeds.  I don't know anyone who doesn't want faster internet or more stable internet.  That is not being debated, the argument is cost, implication, end user cost, end user choice, effects on the economy. Not to mention the poor bastards who now have asbestosis because the NBN co. are pushing contractors hard enough to cut corners simply to meat government set deadlines. 

[Muppet]

http://howfastisthenbn.com.au/

This site here i believe to be very reliable, and the real speed difference. Good to put each plan in perspective. (sorry if already been linked)

 

Also note the difference between FTTP and FTTN (to the premise/ to the node)

 

In my opinion any implementation issues are an issue of Telstras and not something the government needs to fix (most of the time). Also that they are on target at the moment. 

 

Here is a site that has a table that compare plans of the current NBN for people who are lucky enough to already have it. http://www.bit.com.au/Guide/312738,how-much-does-it-cost-to-use-the-nbn-14-providers-compared-including-iinet-telstra-internode.aspx

 

I suggest people should start referencing some of their facts, so the conversation does not turn into a huge pointless argument. 

[mr moose]

http://howfastisthenbn.com.au/

This site here i believe to be very reliable, and the real speed difference. Good to put each plan in perspective. (sorry if already been linked)

 

Also note the difference between FTTP and FTTN (to the premise/ to the node)

 

In my opinion any implementation issues are an issue of Telstras and not something the government needs to fix (most of the time). Also that they are on target at the moment. 

 

Here is a site that has a table that compare plans of the current NBN for people who are lucky enough to already have it. http://www.bit.com.au/Guide/312738,how-much-does-it-cost-to-use-the-nbn-14-providers-compared-including-iinet-telstra-internode.aspx

 

I suggest people should start referencing some of their facts, so the conversation does not turn into a huge pointless argument. 

 

howfastisthenbn.com is a biased site, hardly anyone can afford the 1000Mb/s connection and most will have the 25Mb/s connection (as I have said before), It is not a fair comparison.

As I have also stated before that this debate is not soley about speed and never has been.

 

Implementation is not really telstras problem, Telstra were open and upfront about all the issues surrounding asbestos in their pits. The actual installation of the NBN is purely managed by the NBN Co.  Telstra has absolutely nothing to do with the construction other than allowing nbn contractors into their pits and relinquishing control of the copper network.  

 

Again, on that list the cheapest plan that closest matches my current deal is 3Mb/s slower and cost $10 more per month. Plus there is a $200 setup fee. no thanks.

 

I agree with your last sentence, except there is little quotable information out there that is unbiased.

[Muppet]

howfastisthenbn.com is a biased site, hardly anyone can afford the 1000Mb/s connection and most will have the 25Mb/s connection (as I have said before), It is not a fair comparison.

As I have also stated before that this debate is not soley about speed and never has been.

 

Implementation is not really telstras problem, Telstra were open and upfront about all the issues surrounding asbestos in their pits. The actual installation of the NBN is purely managed by the NBN Co.  Telstra has absolutely nothing to do with the construction other than allowing nbn contractors into their pits and relinquishing control of the copper network.  

 

Again, on that list the cheapest plan that closest matches my current deal is 3Mb/s slower and cost $10 more per month. Plus there is a $200 setup fee. no thanks.

 

I agree with your last sentence, except there is little quotable information out there that is unbiased.

The point is what each network capable of compared to what the cost of what each plan is, Liberals plan in half the cost put delivers no where near half the performance. We are much better off going big now then going small twice, which would be more expensive. And i know plenty of people who would pay 100 + a month for these high speed, high limit plans. 

 

My current plan is $89 a month for 100 gig of adsl2+. and only getting speeds of around 12 by 1.5. And I think my plan is a rip. Its also unreliable. I also hit the limit regularly. Of course i'm not a regular user but peoples internet usage will rise in the future especially with the introduction of such websites of netflix. Which uses 1/3 of america bandwidth. Soon enough people will want to start to want to spend more on better plans. 

 

I tend to take a broader view of these issues and not just what effects me, maybe that's where we differ. 

[mr moose]

The point is what each network capable of compared to what the cost of what each plan is, Liberals plan in half the cost put delivers no where near half the performance. We are much better off going big now then going small twice, which would be more expensive. And i know plenty of people who would pay 100 + a month for these high speed, high limit plans. 

 

My current plan is $89 a month for 100 gig of adsl2+. and only getting speeds of around 12 by 1.5. And I think my plan is a rip. Its also unreliable. I also hit the limit regularly. Of course i'm not a regular user but peoples internet usage will rise in the future especially with the introduction of such websites of netflix. Which uses 1/3 of america bandwidth. Soon enough people will want to start to want to spend more on better plans. 

 

I tend to take a broader view of these issues and not just what effects me, maybe that's where we differ. 

I don't think you can get a broader view about this than what I have already taken. Please re read over my previous posts and you'll see I want the NBN, but there are too many problems with its current incantation.  The coalition plan will be capable of exactly the same speeds, it will just take longer to get to the top speeds. 

[mr moose]

Further information:

 

I found this interesting: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Products/8153.0~December+2012~Chapter~Type+of+access+connection?OpenDocument

 

These are the internet connection types in  Australia  in 2012, as you can see the number of people with mobile internet connections is more than the number of people with dsl and fibre together. This would go a very long way to reducing the national average for connection speed.  Please note that even though some of these people will have both a mobile connection and a dsl connection, this fact will not change the average national speed.

[SubTract]

I think what a lot of people don't seem to realise,

We all WANT the NBN. Nobody has disputed that.

 

Its just that from most people's use today they probably wouldn't really notice. (note the words "most" & "today")

I simply think that a few people are putting their wants well above the necessities of the country.

Yes give us the NBN we want, But don't take the priority off of the more important things.

I know for a fact that in my area the roads are terrible and I would much rather those be fixed at the moment.

I know the hospital that my Partner gave birth at recently is f***ing useless, and hopelessly understaffed, Get that sorted.

Let the NBN trickle along in the background. Just do what needs to be done foremost.

 

For people who want to play the "its not going to cost anything" card. Look at the bigger picture, Of course its going to cost money. If they've actually done what they've said maybe not initial fibre roll out, but it will in the long run. The bigger thing is time and resources. There is loads of time and resources that probably would be better put to use on other projects.

 

I'm not saying to leave the NBN dormant until everything is done. Because obviously there is always things that need to be done, meaning it would never get done.

I'm simply saying Prioritise.

 

On another note, Does anybody know why VDSL isn't offered in Australia?

I'm pretty sure the copper network could handle it. Plus you theoretically can get >100Mb out of it.

[mr moose]

I think what a lot of people don't seem to realise,

We all WANT the NBN. Nobody has disputed that.

 

Its just that from most people's use today they probably wouldn't really notice. (note the words "most" & "today")

I simply think that a few people are putting their wants well above the necessities of the country.

Yes give us the NBN we want, But don't take the priority off of the more important things.

I know for a fact that in my area the roads are terrible and I would much rather those be fixed at the moment.

I know the hospital that my Partner gave birth at recently is f***ing useless, and hopelessly understaffed, Get that sorted.

Let the NBN trickle along in the background. Just do what needs to be done foremost.

 

For people who want to play the "its not going to cost anything" card. Look at the bigger picture, Of course its going to cost money. If they've actually done what they've said maybe not initial fibre roll out, but it will in the long run. The bigger thing is time and resources. There is loads of time and resources that probably would be better put to use on other projects.

 

I'm not saying to leave the NBN dormant until everything is done. Because obviously there is always things that need to be done, meaning it would never get done.

I'm simply saying Prioritise.

 

On another note, Does anybody know why VDSL isn't offered in Australia?

I'm pretty sure the copper network could handle it. Plus you theoretically can get >100Mb out of it.

 

I looked into vdsl not that long ago and apparently a few small companies have paid to have it installed instead of fibre. I don't know why.  It might be possible it hasn't been rolled out here because is not enough money to be made from it before it becomes obsolete to warrant investing in the upgrading the exchanges.

 

Just my thoughts anyway.

[Muppet]

I think what a lot of people don't seem to realise,

We all WANT the NBN. Nobody has disputed that.

 

Its just that from most people's use today they probably wouldn't really notice. (note the words "most" & "today")

I simply think that a few people are putting their wants well above the necessities of the country.

Yes give us the NBN we want, But don't take the priority off of the more important things.

I know for a fact that in my area the roads are terrible and I would much rather those be fixed at the moment.

I know the hospital that my Partner gave birth at recently is f***ing useless, and hopelessly understaffed, Get that sorted.

Let the NBN trickle along in the background. Just do what needs to be done foremost.

 

For people who want to play the "its not going to cost anything" card. Look at the bigger picture, Of course its going to cost money. If they've actually done what they've said maybe not initial fibre roll out, but it will in the long run. The bigger thing is time and resources. There is loads of time and resources that probably would be better put to use on other projects.

 

I'm not saying to leave the NBN dormant until everything is done. Because obviously there is always things that need to be done, meaning it would never get done.

I'm simply saying Prioritise.

 

On another note, Does anybody know why VDSL isn't offered in Australia?

I'm pretty sure the copper network could handle it. Plus you theoretically can get >100Mb out of it.

 

Maybe people have gotten use to terrible speeds, also Australia is already behind in terms of tech and cloud technology is just around the corner, I don't know if we can afford to wait. And its not like hospitals and schools are not going to get any money because of the NBN, just not as much, and even yet none of these things are at far behind as our internet infrastructure. imo.

 

Also with the capacity for higher speeds would people general use case change? I thing so, Maybe a lot of the majority are still limited by what they have got and would pay more for higher speeds. Cheaper plans can be found outside of Telstra, Optus ect. 

[mr moose]

Maybe people have gotten use to terrible speeds, also Australia is already behind in terms of tech and cloud technology is just around the corner, I don't know if we can afford to wait. And its not like hospitals and schools are not going to get any money because of the NBN, just not as much, and even yet none of these things are at far behind as our internet infrastructure. imo.

 

Also with the capacity for higher speeds would people general use case change? I thing so, Maybe a lot of the majority are still limited by what they have got and would pay more for higher speeds. Cheaper plans can be found outside of Telstra, Optus ect. 

 

Yes, but the problem I see is that all the major institutions like hospitals, universities, government and corporate offices already have very fast internet, most on fibre.  Also, as I posted earlier, the reason Australia's general net speed is statistically so low is because half the population have chosen a mobile connection which typically run at 3-4Mb/s average.  Which means that given the opportunity for a faster connection does not necessarily mean they will take it up. Unfortunately the NBN is banking on people signing up in order to pay the loan that builds it. I certainly hope that if it goes ahead there are enough people who can afford to take it up, otherwise our taxes will be going to service the loan and pickup the short fall. And that may not mean higher taxes but it will mean public services will be cut.

[Muppet]

In my opinion people are using mobile because they might not be able to get a connection to their house, ie no phoneline, or one never got installed even if they could and didn't want to pay the install fee. Because wouldn't it be cheaper to get a wired connection and then run a wireless connection to laptops, tablets, phones, ect? 

 

But even then the NBN wouldn't solve this if they weren't willing to lay fiber where there isn't already?

[mr moose]

In my opinion people are using mobile because they might not be able to get a connection to their house, ie no phoneline, or one never got installed even if they could and didn't want to pay the install fee. Because wouldn't it be cheaper to get a wired connection and then run a wireless connection to laptops, tablets, phones, ect? 

 

But even then the NBN wouldn't solve this if they weren't willing to lay fiber where there isn't already?

It's also possible that some people have the mobile internet so they aren't restricted to  the range of their personal wifi. 

 

It is interesting to hear about all the work being done in America right now with fibre. Google is rolling out fibre and private companies all over are starting to build fibre networks.  The bit that struck me is that it is all private companies in America doing this and in Australia it is the government pushing the fibre.  This tells me there is not enough consumers to make it a viable investment from a private enterprises view.  Which raises questions about how long it will take to pay for itself.

[mr moose]

 I just heard an interesting rumour that with the current NBN plan not everyone will get Fibre to the home. I am looking for some sort of confirmation but I am told it will be VDSL from the exchange.

 

This could really upset the apple cart if they are cutting corners on a core NBN promise.

 

I did Found this:

 

http://broadbandguide.com.au/blogs/2008/06/vdsl2-broadband-technology-likely-for-nbn/

 

Which puts the current copper infrastructure under a whole new light.  It seems VDSL2 will take all copper to 40-50Mb/s which is significant seeing as there are next to no domestic applications that require that kind of speed.

[Muppet]

 I just heard an interesting rumour that with the current NBN plan not everyone will get Fibre to the home. I am looking for some sort of confirmation but I am told it will be VDSL from the exchange.

 

This could really upset the apple cart if they are cutting corners on a core NBN promise.

 

I did Found this:

 

http://broadbandguide.com.au/blogs/2008/06/vdsl2-broadband-technology-likely-for-nbn/

 

Which puts the current copper infrastructure under a whole new light.  It seems VDSL2 will take all copper to 40-50Mb/s which is significant seeing as there are next to no domestic applications that require that kind of speed.

I thought that was what the liberals plan was about, In a Q&A a few weeks ago the minister for infrastructure(lib) said instead of fiber they were going to invest in other technologies in their plan. Personally a mix of vdsl tech and fiber i wouldn't have too much of a problem with.  But then again i do like the future proofness of fiber, Even though anything to do with computers and technology is rarely ever going to be future proof. Things can change just like that. 

[mr moose]

I thought that was what the liberals plan was about, In a Q&A a few weeks ago the minister for infrastructure(lib) said instead of fiber they were going to invest in other technologies in their plan. Personally a mix of vdsl tech and fiber i wouldn't have too much of a problem with.  But then again i do like the future proofness of fiber, Even though anything to do with computers and technology is rarely ever going to be future proof. Things can change just like that. 

I thought so too. What ever the outcome is, it's going to be better than what we have.  As I said earlier though, this is a rumour from someone who works at the local exchange, apparently all the NBN gear is at the exchange ready go and mostly its VDSL stuff.  So I don't what's happening.

[chimmychunger]

Rudd needs to win I NEED FAST INTERWEBS :P