Australian National Broadband Network Discussion

[mr moose]

HI Guys, new here. I have been following politics (mainly the policy implementation, not which party is better) for some time.  I think what people forget is that issue is a lot more complicated than just which plan is better (as clearly everyone would prefer the FTTH, labor plan). Since it was announced we have had major setbacks, the roll out has been fumbled from the beginning with contractors not being paid and made to cut corners in order simply break even not to mention the asbestos debacle and the contractor who allegedly started pulling pipes out of the ground due to a payment dispute.  While the original plan to have FTTH is ultimately the best option it is not necessarily the one we can afford nor is it immediately essential. We can however afford to have the FTTN option now and upgrade the rest later when we are actually making money as a nation or more importantly making money as home owners being able to afford the service (which is what has been budgeted to repay the loan used to build it).  Also it seems some people are under the Impression the service will either be free or at least cheap however people look surprised when I tell them that to get the 100Mb connection the labor party is promising they are going to have to pay a premium for it. They don't realise that most will be paying the same amount they are now for a 12Mb connection (for the record mine is currently 16Mb on dodgy pair gain adsl2, so I am not looking forward to paying more for the same speed).  There are definitely pros and cons to both plans and I think people need to consider that a fair bit of responsible budgeting and thought that has gone into the coalitions plan, not just bag it out because... (enter personal reasoning here).  Remember they could have just do away with it like they are promising to do with the carbon tax if they really didn't want it or see a need for it.

 

Just my 2c anyway.

 

Mr moose

[PhilPC]

HI Guys, new here. I have been following politics (mainly the policy implementation, not which party is better) for some time. I think what people forget is that issue is a lot more complicated than just which plan is better (as clearly everyone would prefer the FTTH, labor plan). Since it was announced we have had major setbacks, the roll out has been fumbled from the beginning with contractors not being paid and made to cut corners in order simply break even not to mention the asbestos debacle and the contractor who allegedly started pulling pipes out of the ground due to a payment dispute. While the original plan to have FTTH is ultimately the best option it is not necessarily the one we can afford nor is it immediately essential. We can however afford to have the FTTN option now and upgrade the rest later when we are actually making money as a nation or more importantly making money as home owners being able to afford the service (which is what has been budgeted to repay the loan used to build it). Also it seems some people are under the Impression the service will either be free or at least cheap however people look surprised when I tell them that to get the 100Mb connection the labor party is promising they are going to have to pay a premium for it. They don't realise that most will be paying the same amount they are now for a 12Mb connection (for the record mine is currently 16Mb on dodgy pair gain adsl2, so I am not looking forward to paying more for the same speed). There are definitely pros and cons to both plans and I think people need to consider that a fair bit of responsible budgeting and thought that has gone into the coalitions plan, not just bag it out because... (enter personal reasoning here). Remember they could have just do away with it like they are promising to do with the carbon tax if they really didn't want it or see a need for it.

Just my 2c anyway.

Mr moose

You make good points. I think I should also add, that whilst the network of NTTP will last for many decades, the use of it may not. Thinking about things like Google Glass, and how reliant we currently are on our phones having at least a 3g connection, it is possible that before IPv6 is even implemented, no-one will want to use a cabled connection.

I know you probably scoff at the idea of wireless now, but admit that you use wireless networking on your phone, and you couldn't live without it. Of-course cable will always be faster, but it will not always be the most convenient for our culture. Someone will eventually have to scoff out infrastructure for a highspeed wireless network in this country, I think the Liberal's long-term plan (>implying they have one) is to spend money on nodes, then use the nodes for wireless when the country is ready for it.

Just playing some devil's advocate here

[mr moose]

Absolutely Phil, I know there are a lot who say wireless will never be able to keep up with either the required number of simultaneous connections per tower or the speed, however Samsung have just recently proven you can have speeds of upto 1GB/s (yes bytes) per second on the 5g network. We just don't know how long it will take to implement. The other thing is that South Korea seem to survive with over 20M mobile devices operating on a 4g system without too many issues, thus negating the connection congestion argument.  With all this in mind I believe that future technology potentials will be way too unpredictable to be used as justification for forging ahead with one plan over the other. Either way we go the future is shaping up to be an exciting place.

 

Cheers

Mr Moose

[PhilPC]

Absolutely Phil, I know there are a lot who say wireless will never be able to keep up with either the required number of simultaneous connections per tower or the speed, however Samsung have just recently proven you can have speeds of upto 1GB/s (yes bytes) per second on the 5g network. We just don't know how long it will take to implement. The other thing is that South Korea seem to survive with over 20M mobile devices operating on a 4g system without too many issues, thus negating the connection congestion argument.  With all this in mind I believe that future technology potentials will be way too unpredictable to be used as justification for forging ahead with one plan over the other. Either way we go the future is shaping up to be an exciting place.

 

Cheers

Mr Moose

A more local example of wireless being better, is Wireless ac being theoretically faster than gigabit Ethernet. I know there are many reasons why laying cat6e though your walls is far superior than relying on wireless ac, but that doesn't stop the fact that even today society is growing out of plugging into holes in the wall.

 

btw, thanks for joining just to voice your opinion on the subject.

This thread really needed to be more of a discussion, than a Labor party bus

[Cruiseshipfan]

Absolutely Phil, I know there are a lot who say wireless will never be able to keep up with either the required number of simultaneous connections per tower or the speed, however Samsung have just recently proven you can have speeds of upto 1GB/s (yes bytes) per second on the 5g network. We just don't know how long it will take to implement. The other thing is that South Korea seem to survive with over 20M mobile devices operating on a 4g system without too many issues, thus negating the connection congestion argument.  With all this in mind I believe that future technology potentials will be way too unpredictable to be used as justification for forging ahead with one plan over the other. Either way we go the future is shaping up to be an exciting place.

 

Cheers

Mr Moose

 

Meanwhile fibre has been able to get speeds of greater then 25 Tbps, and that is just a single strand. 

[Cruiseshipfan]

I currently get 32mb and i dont see how spending tax money is valid unless its improves upon this

Firstly you will see an improvement. Secondly there is no tax payers money being used for the project, that is just another example of Abbott's gigantic library of lies he has generated. The money being used has been borrowed and will be paid off with the money made from the network.  

[mr moose]

Meanwhile fibre has been able to get speeds of greater then 25 Tbps, and that is just a single strand. 

Of course, I am not saying fibre isn't fast, we all know it is. The issue up for debate needs to be about which technology is more applicable for our current situation and which technology is easier to upgrade. Not which is faster. As I said before, future technology is not that predictable (an unknown quantity) so anything we do now to our network will need to be flexible enough to cater for future technologies, that is without  spending mega dollars on infrastructure that may well only be used for 5 years to then become a dead in the ground investment(pun intended).

 

Just to clarify, I would love to have the 100Mb or 1Gb fibre to the home, paid for by the government, But the closest plan on offer to match my current speed is more expensive, 3Mb slower and 150GB a month less data. So for me there is no improvement in performance/cost.  Even considering the upstream speed of the offered tier is 1Mb which is 4x faster than my current upstream its not that enticing.

 

Cheers

Mr moose.

[mr moose]

Firstly you will see an improvement. Secondly there is no tax payers money being used for the project, that is just another example of Abbott's gigantic library of lies he has generated. The money being used has been borrowed and will be paid off with the money made from the network.  

 

That is true, although tax payers will be paying the interest on that loan and will end up paying it back if the general population don't take up the NBN for their internet. There will be a percentage that will simply stick with 3/4g because they only do facebook and instagram. some will swap to mobile.  Also bigger groups like schools, universities and big business already have fibre connections so they will not swap to the NBN.  Some schools are also on Telstra contracts which tie them to current network services. It is interesting to note that the NBN does not offer any better performance or price over current school network connections.

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/638283/public-schools-wont-connect-to-nbn/

 

Still, it's all horses for courses and we won't know the better option (or who's telling the truth) until it's all said and done.

 

 

Cheers

Mr Moose

[Cruiseshipfan]

That is true, although tax payers will be paying the interest on that loan and will end up paying it back if the general population don't take up the NBN for their internet. There will be a percentage that will simply stick with 3/4g because they only do facebook and instagram. some will swap to mobile.  Also bigger groups like schools, universities and big business already have fibre connections so they will not swap to the NBN.  Some schools are also on Telstra contracts which tie them to current network services. It is interesting to note that the NBN does not offer any better performance or price over current school network connections.

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/638283/public-schools-wont-connect-to-nbn/

 

Still, it's all horses for courses and we won't know the better option (or who's telling the truth) until it's all said and done.

 

 

Cheers

Mr Moose

 

Everyone who wants a home phone connection or wired internet connection will need to connect to the NBN. They are completely removing the copper network from use. In fact there would be no reason why anyone would not upgrade. I mean really it doesn't cost a cent and in fact will most likely save you money (more on that in a sec). So hence these contract with school will need to be changed as telstras copper network will be no more anyway, so they will have to adapt. Also pricing has already been released for the NBN, as some houses already are connected. Here is one example http://www.iinet.net.au/nbn/nbn-plan-residential.html When it comes time and we switch we will be paying less or very similar for faster speeds. Currently I pay $79.99, for 1Mbps/0.6Mbps and have 100GB peak and 100GB offpeak data, with phone connection. With the NBN we can pay $74.95 for 25/5 Mbps. So we would save money but for more speed. However we are going to pay a little more and get 100/40 Mbps. 

[PhilPC]

If anyone watched Kevin Rudd's announcement just now on ABC 24, as much as I'd love to discuss the upcoming election with you guys, I feel this is not the appropriate thread for it. Whilst the NBN is a discussion topic for the election, there are other forces at play.

[Guest]

If anyone watched Kevin Rudd's announcement just now on ABC 24, as much as I'd love to discuss the upcoming election with you guys, I feel this is not the appropriate thread for it. Whilst the NBN is a discussion topic for the election, there are other forces at play.

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/29821-australian-election-2013/

[mr moose]

I understand what your saying cruishipfan, I Just haven't seen any compelling evidence that the 2000 schools* in NSW that are already on fibre will change or need to change to the NBN not to mention all hospitals and uni's that are on the AARNET. The reasons many may not upgrade are that there is already an increasing number of people not connecting a landline phone or home internet because their mobile is sufficient. From my view point it is not just about the network and technology of today but the tech of tomorrow and what we can afford asit is also about the economics of Australia and more importantly the economics of home users. With power going up, fuel going up, gas going up, water going up and rego, licencing, rates, etc. some families will have to start deciding what they are going to do without. I would think internet might be a little lower on the priority list than most would want it to be. 

 

I understand this might be only a very small portion of the population but it could also be sufficient enough to cause the NBN co. to increase their prices to recoup the initial roll out costs.  I know my internet prices will go up with the NBN, they will go up significantly if I wish to keep my data limit and increase the speed, Also this is before factoring in voip account charges. 

 

*data obtained from a news article so I can't verify the accuracy but it should be good.

 

cheers

Mr Moose

[Sardis]

I'm currently with Exetel on their no contract $55 1TB + home phone plane and I get up to 1.6MB/s down here in Eastern Surburbs of Sydney so I know that I won't be changing over to the NBN for a while until prices become comparable to that as that speed is sufficient for almost everything bar streaming high bitrate Vimeo clips. I think for the NBN we especially need to no longer have caps or have the caps high, e.g. 1TB, so that usage doesn't factor.

[mr moose]

I just heard on the news today that over 3 million Australians are mobile only, that is they do not have a home phone or wired network service.  That is 19% of the total population who will already not be purchasing NBN.  With the prices as high as they are I can see more people going wireless also, which could push the cost of NBN even higher.  Not looking forward to the internet future of Australia if they don't slow down and make sure we consumers still have options we can afford.

[Hazy125]

If labor don't somehow manage to win the election and keep the NBN, when I turn 18 next year I'm moving to America. Australia is just too far behind in terms of things like the all important internet, not to mention I could have cut a third out of the cost of building my current PC by living in America. Also, this is a tech site. Of course everyone here(or nearly everyone) would love to see the NBN implemented. However I know many not so technically inclined like my current girlfriend who have interned speeds of 150 kilobytes per second and are perfectly happy. They can watch low quality YouTube videos and go on facebook which is hat the bulk of the Australian population want. I personally can't stand my current 1 megabyte download speeds and am hoping that NBN becomes an actual thing

[SubTract]

Everyone who wants a home phone connection or wired internet connection will need to connect to the NBN. They are completely removing the copper network from use. In fact there would be no reason why anyone would not upgrade. I mean really it doesn't cost a cent and in fact will most likely save you money (more on that in a sec). So hence these contract with school will need to be changed as telstras copper network will be no more anyway, so they will have to adapt. Also pricing has already been released for the NBN, as some houses already are connected. Here is one example http://www.iinet.net.au/nbn/nbn-plan-residential.html When it comes time and we switch we will be paying less or very similar for faster speeds. Currently I pay $79.99, for 1Mbps/0.6Mbps and have 100GB peak and 100GB offpeak data, with phone connection. With the NBN we can pay $74.95 for 25/5 Mbps. So we would save money but for more speed. However we are going to pay a little more and get 100/40 Mbps. 

It would cost them so much to remove the coper network. Even if they take it offline it won't be for a long time. By saying it doesn't cost a cent it rubbish, It costs us all in a lot of ways... Taxes (money may get borrowed for the NBN, how do they intend paying that back...) the cost of getting connected to the NBN, installation of the fibre box/decoder, modem, new contracts... dude the list goes on.

 

If you're paying that much you're getting ripped off. I'm with Telstra (the biggest rip off of all), I pay $78 a month and get 24/1Mbs with 200GB and a telephone.

 

Yes I want NBN as well, but its not miraculous answer to everything.

 

The time its going to take to get the NBN in my area (If I get it at all) is going to be a long time.... 

The biggest advantage I'll get from it is a bigger backbone, and less people on the copper network leaving more bandwidth for me. I notice huge fluctuations between when everyone is on the Internet vs when its just a couple.

say 2pm I will be lucky to get 500KB/s where as at 2am I can get in excess of 2.2MB/s

 

Yes we need better Internet but sometimes things should be a higher priority. Like getting the country out of debt...

 

I agree with @TheMightyNoob01, He said

 

I really hope the liberals don't cock up and change the nbn to the half ass version when they get in to power. Personally they should just use the current plan but, over a longer period of time IMO.

 

"just use the current plan but, over a longer period of time"

 

You Sir should be in government. This way we get what we need but without spending stupid amounts of money that we really can't afford.

[InstxnctAU]

Well let's think about this. 

 

Look at our current internet plans. 

 

I'm paying a shitload for 0.4up 14down.

 

Imagine the prices that the ISPs will charge for 1Gbps

[silencerbob]

Im on the Optus speed boost plan that already gets 100MB down, but only 1.5Mbit up...rather than 40MB up under Labours plans.

 

Will i lose out on speed when the Libs take over?  Sounds backwards to me.

[SubTract]

Im on the Optus speed boost plan that already gets 100MB down, but only 1.5Mbit up...rather than 40MB up under Labours plans.

 

Will i lose out on speed when the Libs take over?  Sounds backwards to me.

No, They're not going to dump existing infrastructure. They're just going to stop further work.

[mr moose]

Im on the Optus speed boost plan that already gets 100MB down, but only 1.5Mbit up...rather than 40MB up under Labours plans.

 

Will i lose out on speed when the Libs take over?  Sounds backwards to me.

 

The current NBN plans are not synchronous, so to get the theoretical 40Mb up you'll have to pay a pretty penny.

 

Under the NBN plans I have to pay about $20 a month more to get the same data allowance but a decrease of 3Mb.

[mr moose]

If labor don't somehow manage to win the election and keep the NBN, when I turn 18 next year I'm moving to America. Australia is just too far behind in terms of things like the all important internet, not to mention I could have cut a third out of the cost of building my current PC by living in America. Also, this is a tech site. Of course everyone here(or nearly everyone) would love to see the NBN implemented. However I know many not so technically inclined like my current girlfriend who have interned speeds of 150 kilobytes per second and are perfectly happy. They can watch low quality YouTube videos and go on facebook which is hat the bulk of the Australian population want. I personally can't stand my current 1 megabyte download speeds and am hoping that NBN becomes an actual thing

 

Yes most of us (if not all) want faster net speeds.  I don't think that has ever been in debate,  But the problem most people have is at what cost is the faster speeds going be?  There is no point in giving everyone fibre optic to the home if the economy goes down the gurgler and no one can afford to pay for it.  At least with the coalition plan you will get a faster net speed and less danger of losing your job in the process.  Remember the coalitions plan does not mean we won't get fibre to the home, it just means we won't get it straight away and until we do they guarantee us 25Mb/s. 

 

And don't forget the coalitions plan is just as likely to fall in a heap and not prevail as labors plan is. 

 

As far as pricing goes for PC parts, that is a problem with our population, we only have 23Million here, so there is not enough of a consumer base to drive down the price.  If there were more of us like in the US then the market would have more profit in it thus ensuring we were better looked after. Nature of the beast I am afraid it isn't going to change no matter how good Ed Huisac's intentions are.

[Goths1]

I want Labor party to stay in because of the NBN plan sure it might cost more then coalition plan to install but in the long run it will be better. those copper lines cost heaps of money each year and there shit. With the speed of the NBN the government is limiting it to 100 down 40 up but they can up the speeds of it to 1000 down 1000 up in the future, I'm annoyed because where i live they haven't even marked us on the map of getting it :( i might need to move to get it i hate the crappy adsl i have now.

[mr moose]

I want Labor party to stay in because of the NBN plan sure it might cost more then coalition plan to install but in the long run it will be better. those copper lines cost heaps of money each year and there shit. With the speed of the NBN the government is limiting it to 100 down 40 up but they can up the speeds of it to 1000 down 1000 up in the future, I'm annoyed because where i live they haven't even marked us on the map of getting it :( i might need to move to get it i hate the crappy adsl i have now.

 

You should know that the NBN plans start with speeds of 12/1 and then if you want 25/5 you have to pay extra and if you want the 100/40 you'll have to pay a premium.  People seem to be under the impression everyone will get a default 100Mb/s. but it does not work that way. The NBN will be shaped just like adsl, the plans will be similar just more expensive. the only difference will be the maximum speed the exchange port will be capable of. What speed you get is dependant on the ISP and the size of your wallet.

[A32m]

Although the NBN idea is great, and is working for some. It's implementation should have been looked at many times before commencment. Why? For the simple fact that they now realise it is costing them too much money during build.

They should have tried and incorperate the existing HFC (Hybrid Fibre Coaxial) network, which produces the same rates as NBN's fibre, there by reducing fibre costs substantially.

The bang to buck ratio is not there with the NBN network. More engineering should have gone into this, it just feels rushed to me.


 

[Cruiseshipfan]

It would cost them so much to remove the coper network. Even if they take it offline it won't be for a long time. By saying it doesn't cost a cent it rubbish, It costs us all in a lot of ways... Taxes (money may get borrowed for the NBN, how do they intend paying that back...) the cost of getting connected to the NBN, installation of the fibre box/decoder, modem, new contracts... dude the list goes on.

 

If you're paying that much you're getting ripped off. I'm with Telstra (the biggest rip off of all), I pay $78 a month and get 24/1Mbs with 200GB and a telephone.

 

Yes I want NBN as well, but its not miraculous answer to everything.

 

The time its going to take to get the NBN in my area (If I get it at all) is going to be a long time.... 

The biggest advantage I'll get from it is a bigger backbone, and less people on the copper network leaving more bandwidth for me. I notice huge fluctuations between when everyone is on the Internet vs when its just a couple.

say 2pm I will be lucky to get 500KB/s where as at 2am I can get in excess of 2.2MB/s

 

Yes we need better Internet but sometimes things should be a higher priority. Like getting the country out of debt...

 

I agree with @TheMightyNoob01, He said

 

 

"just use the current plan but, over a longer period of time"

 

You Sir should be in government. This way we get what we need but without spending stupid amounts of money that we really can't afford.

 

Firstly who on earth said anyone is removing the copper. The NBN doesn't touch the copper, it just stays there and its up to telstra to decide what to do with it. Plus this just shows how much you read. I said the money that will be used to pay the money back is money earned from the NBN, not a single dollar from tax is used. As for personal cost, to get connected it could be completely free. The connection devices are all paid for by the government, as are the connection to the house and installation. You then can decide if you want a new modem or not, depending on what you have now you could be all good or you may not feel the need to upgrade as you may get good enough speeds (if thats what the user wants). So the is no cost at all that is not already in the plans. Also no I am not getting ripped off. I pay as much as anyone else with an equal contract, except for the fact that the copper in my area is falling apart. 

With this debt crap stop watching the news and actually do some research on the matter, you will see that this debt business is a whole bunch on garbage. Abbott is kicking and screaming trying to do everything he can to try and make labor look bad, and it just so happens that the mass media are controlled by people who benefit heavily when liberals are in, it has always happened and always will. You will never get the true facts from the news outlets. Sure we have a little debt but does it matter, not in the slightest, the amount of debt is almost nothing (comparatively) and has no importance, would you rather live in a country that has good infrastructure or live in a country that is super rich but has horrible infrastructure. If you prefer the latter I will direct you to some Asian and Africa countries who will be willing to take you in.