CM Storm releasing new Pitch gaming earphones

[MammothJerk]

 

 

http://www.cmstorm.com/en/products/audio/Pitch/

 

http://www.cmstorm.com/en/news/65/

 

 

New earphones from CM Storm aimed towards gamers. Passive noise cancelling, 360° omni directional microphone, included splitter.

[Hyydrah]

Omnidirectional microphone? That's not optimal for gaming.

[LAwLz]

Omnidirectional microphone? That's not optimal for gaming.

IEM aren't optimal for gaming either. If you ask me, this seems like a good example of "let's call them gaming gear just so that more people might buy them". I often avoid things labeled "gaming" because more often than not, it's just a cheap trick to get people to buy your product. The exception being graphics cards (for obvious reason), mice (usually better sensors) and keyboards (gaming keyboards often has a high #KRO and sometimes handy features like macro recording).

[Hyydrah]

IEM aren't optimal for gaming either. If you ask me, this seems like a good example of "let's call them gaming gear just so that more people might buy them". I often avoid things labeled "gaming" because more often than not, it's just a cheap trick to get people to buy your product. The exception being graphics cards (for obvious reason), mice (usually better sensors) and keyboards (gaming keyboards often has a high #KRO and sometimes handy features like macro recording).

I agree that it's probably just a marketing strategy, but how aren't IEMs optimal for gaming?

[Fonil]

Wonder what the price point is, I've been looking for a nice pair of IEM's for my phone. 

[LAwLz]

I agree that it's probably just a marketing strategy, but how aren't IEMs optimal for gaming?

IEMs usually has a very small soundstage, which makes it a lot harder to determine the source of the sound relative to yourself. There are a few IEMs with good soundstage, but they are rare and my guess is that these CM won't be that great either. Maybe I am wrong though.

[Hyydrah]

IEMs usually has a very small soundstage, which makes it a lot harder to determine the source of the sound relative to yourself. There are a few IEMs with good soundstage, but they are rare and my guess is that these CM won't be that great either. Maybe I am wrong though.

They can outperform over ear headphones by quite a substantial amount, look at the Westone ES5's or 4/4R's for example. From my experience their performance/dollar ratio is superior to that of over ear headphones, actually.

[BernardoSLR]

I feel like I've seen this type of earphones before....

 

*cof* SteelSeries In Ear Pros *cof*

 

I'm using them right now (the In Ear Pros I mean) and I have to agree, they are not at all optimal for gaming. Still, they are a lot more comfortable compared to Headsets. That said, I have a Seinheiser PC360 on my wishlist but they are really expensive! :P

[Nicktrance]

I feel like I've seen this type of earphones before....

 

*cof* SteelSeries In Ear Pros *cof*

 

I'm using them right now (the In Ear Pros I mean) and I have to agree, they are not at all optimal for gaming. Still, they are a lot more comfortable compared to Headsets. That said, I have a Seinheiser PC360 on my wishlist but they are really expensive! :P

 

In ear pros look way better and more comfortable but yeah they're very much not optimal for gaming I love using IEMs to listen to music when I'm using public transport or waiting for someone because they're awesome at blocking out noise but I prefer to game with big comfy open ear headphones. Also the PC363Ds have replaced the 360s :D.

[LAwLz]

They can outperform over ear headphones by quite a substantial amount, look at the Westone ES5's or 4/4R's for example. From my experience their performance/dollar ratio is superior to that of over ear headphones, actually.

Here is what I found about those you mentioned:

The soundstage isn't that great (about the ES5)

However, if you really want soundstage, you will probably need full size headphones. (about the Westone 4)

that soundstage would never match an open hp, but if I could get slightly more, I would be happy (about the se530, which according to the thread are fairly similar to the W4)

 

Yes there are a few IEMs with good soundstage, but if you compare them to proper full size headphones, they are usually very lacking. And no I am not saying that all full size headphones are better than all IEMs, but generally speaking, full size is better than IEMs. And please note that I am not talking about frequency response (which full size are usually better at as well), but soundstage (which is what I would want in "gaming" headphones).

[Hyydrah]

"I'm surprised the soundstage of the W4 is actually bigger than some of the full sized cans I have listened to ( Senn. hd 280 pro, Senn. hd 25-1 ll, B&W P5, AKG K181)"

 

"I agree with the fact that Westone 4's soundstage is wide"

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/527694/westone-4-appreciation-thread-and-reviews-a-k-a-westone-4/1170

 

That's just from one page alone, there are dozens more throughout the thread.

[LAwLz]

"I'm surprised the soundstage of the W4 is actually bigger than some of the full sized cans I have listened to ( Senn. hd 280 pro, Senn. hd 25-1 ll, B&W P5, AKG K181)"

 

"I agree with the fact that Westone 4's soundstage is wide"

Yes, he was surprised that they had wider soundstage than some of the full sized headphones he has listened to. Want to know why he was surprised? Because IEMs usually has worse soundstage. None of the headphones on his list are well known for having a wide soundstage by the way.

 

Again, I am not saying that all IEMs have bad soundstage, but they often do. That is all.

[Hyydrah]

Yes, he was surprised that they had wider soundstage than some of the full sized headphones he has listened to. Want to know why he was surprised? Because IEMs usually has worse soundstage. None of the headphones on his list are well known for having a wide soundstage by the way.

 

Again, I am not saying that all IEMs have bad soundstage, but they often do. That is all.

They may seem to have a worse soundstage only because he's tried many more "full sized cans" than IEMs, and even if IEMs had a poor soundstage on average, that still doesn't make them the better gaming headphone. You fail to even mention other important factors such as comfort or (for some people) bass, depending on the game. At the price point these will be likely entering at, money is better spent on sound quality anyway where it wouldn't be spend to as large of a degree if it was an over ear headphone.

[frontliner]

Shure SE215s have a good soundstage and are relatively inexpensive

[LAwLz]

They may seem to have a worse soundstage only because he's tried many more "full sized cans" than IEMs, and even if IEMs had a poor soundstage on average, that still doesn't make them the better gaming headphone.

Eh, yes they do actually. If you want some headphones for gaming, then you want very accurate and wide soundstage so that you can easily tell where the sound comes from (for example 5 o'clock and not 4 o'clock).

 

 

 

You fail to even mention other important factors such as comfort or (for some people) bass, depending on the game. At the price point these will be likely entering at, money is better spent on sound quality anyway where it wouldn't be spend to as large of a degree if it was an over ear headphone.

Well IEMs often don't have that good bass either (the drivers are way to small to do it properly) and comfort is very subjective. Some people like IEM and some people don't, that's why I didn't mention that.

I haven't seen price mentioned anywhere so I won't comment on that. I am not convinced that IEMs has better price:sound quality ratio that on-ear and full sized headphones either. The Koss Porta Pros are pretty damn excellent for the price, and you will most likely have a pretty difficult time finding IEMs for the same price or less, which sounds as good or better.

 

Do you use some IEMs when you play games? I got the feeling that you do. I am not saying that's necessarily bad, but it could most likely be better with some proper fullsized headphones.

[Hyydrah]

Eh, yes they do actually. If you want some headphones for gaming, then you want very accurate and wide soundstage so that you can easily tell where the sound comes from (for example 5 o'clock and not 4 o'clock).

 

 

 

Well IEMs often don't have that good bass either (the drivers are way to small to do it properly) and comfort is very subjective. Some people like IEM and some people don't, that's why I didn't mention that.

I haven't seen price mentioned anywhere so I won't comment on that. I am not convinced that IEMs has better price:sound quality ratio that on-ear and full sized headphones either. The Koss Porta Pros are pretty damn excellent for the price, and you will most likely have a pretty difficult time finding IEMs for the same price or less, which sounds as good or better.

Might want to read this thread if you're still convinced that over ear headphones are a better value.

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/639044/500-iem-vs-500-headphones

 

IEMs can have good bass, actually. Although over ear headphones have the advantage, IEMs like the IE8 have impressive bass and soundstage, so don't underestimate them.

[LAwLz]

Might want to read this thread if you're still convinced that over ear headphones are a better value.

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/639044/500-iem-vs-500-headphones

 

IEMs can have good bass, actually. Although over ear headphones have the advantage, IEMs like the IE8 have impressive bass and soundstage, so don't underestimate them.

Sure I'll check that thread out:

 

My Beyerdynamic DT880 600Ω which I bought $180 used sounds noticeably better than any of my IEMs upto $400-500 price point. Note: I almost only listen to classical music.

I am sure listening to other genre, IEM might come close and even beat full sized can but for me with what I listen, IEM loose out 9 times out of 10.

IEMs do certain things better and certain things worse. For classical, no contest, full-sized headphones are better since they have a much better soundstage. Detail and accuracy tend to be better for IEMs, but for bass and soundstaging, IEMs will always have limitations.

In my opinion, the main advantages of iems are its portability, isolation, and the ability to sound good out of relatively cheap portable sources. In terms of sound quality alone, headphones offer more for every dollar spent and can scale quite high with higher end gears in the chain. But you can end up spending a lot on a decent dac/amp setup.

I think it really comes down to your usage. IEMS are better if you plan to use for portability. If you plan to listen in the privacy of your own home/bedroom or whatever, full sized with proper amplification will be better, generally speaking.

 

I can continue but I think you get the point... That thread just further proves my point.

[Hyydrah]

Sure I'll check that thread out:

 

 

I can continue but I think you get the point... That thread just further proves my point.

Clearly you didn't read my post. I said "Might want to read this thread if you're still convinced that over ear headphones are a better value". Value is less subjective than sound quality, and clearly there isn't much debate as to which reigns superior here. There are many people arguing that one or the other sound better, go ahead and quote as many posts as you want because there are plenty saying the opposite as well.

[LAwLz]

Clearly you didn't read my post. I said "Might want to read this thread if you're still convinced that over ear headphones are a better value". Value is less subjective than sound quality, and clearly there isn't much debate as to which reigns superior here. There are many people arguing that one or the other sound better, go ahead and quote as many posts as you want because there are plenty saying the opposite as well.

I am not sure why you feel so offended. All I said was that IEMs usually do not have the same soundstage as fullsized headphones, and therefore aren't as optimal for gaming. Like I said before, that doesn't mean all full sized headphones are better than all IEMs, but as someone in the head-fi thread, they usually lose 9/10 times. The size limits them very much, it's as simple as that. I don't really get why you are still arguing at this point to be honest because even if the sources you link, the majority still agrees with the points I have made.

I am getting a very strong "I use IEMs so therefore they are better than everything else" vibe from you and your posts. Maybe that's just me misinterpreting you, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people agree.

Your arguments at this point is basically me saying "yes this is not true for all IEMs vs full sized, but it's accurate for most. That doesn't mean you can't find a few good ones" and then you going "oh but this is doesn't fit your generalization", which is exactly my point, but you don't seem to get that.

 

So I am going to say this again...

Yes, what I am saying is not 100% accurate for 100% of IEMs, but it is generally true. IEMs GENERALLY don't have as good soundstage, that's all I said, okay? Generally as in "in most cases" or "usually".

 

Edit: Also, you keep bringing up completely different subjects such as "performance" or "value" and so on, while I've been talking about soundstage. Please try to stick to one thing and don't be all over the place when having a discussion. We'll have to see how these CMs perform when they are released, but my guess is that a lot of full sized will have better sound stage and possibly even better frequency response accuracy.

[Hyydrah]

I am not sure why you feel so offended. All I said was that IEMs usually do not have the same soundstage as fullsized headphones, and therefore aren't as optimal for gaming. Like I said before, that doesn't mean all full sized headphones are better than all IEMs, but as someone in the head-fi thread, they usually lose 9/10 times. The size limits them very much, it's as simple as that. I don't really get why you are still arguing at this point to be honest because even if the sources you link, the majority still agrees with the points I have made.

I am getting a very strong "I use IEMs so therefore they are better than everything else" vibe from you and your posts. Maybe that's just me misinterpreting you, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people agree.

Your arguments at this point is basically me saying "yes this is not true for all IEMs vs full sized, but it's accurate for most. That doesn't mean you can't find a few good ones" and then you going "oh but this is doesn't fit your generalization", which is exactly my point, but you don't seem to get that.

 

So I am going to say this again...

Yes, what I am saying is not 100% accurate for 100% of IEMs, but it is generally true. IEMs GENERALLY don't have as good soundstage, that's all I said, okay? Generally as in "in most cases" or "usually".

 

Edit: Also, you keep bringing up completely different subjects such as "performance" or "value" and so on, while I've been talking about soundstage. Please try to stick to one thing and don't be all over the place when having a discussion. We'll have to see how these CMs perform when they are released, but my guess is that a lot of full sized will have better sound stage and possibly even better frequency response accuracy.

Where are you getting these numbers? it's a forum, of course there are going to be people on either side of the fence. 9/10 is a huge exaggeration. Also, I'm not offended, if that's what it sounds like.

 

I don't see how my argument is weak. I never said that IEMs perform better on average in gaming scenarios, but I know that they can. Not only that, your argument is rather weak by basically saying that "soundstage is everything" and not considering comfort (look at gaming mice), value, etc. which obviously play a prominent role in determining which is better for gaming.

 

And how are "performance and value" different subjects? We're talking about which is better for gaming, you neglect the fact that they're of importance as well. We don't even know what games the end user would be playing, directional sound can oftentimes be useless in many games. I've tried gaming with budget IEMs with a rather poor soundstage in Battlefield 3 and it hasn't affected my scores negatively (if any game would benefit from good soundstage it would be that).

[LAwLz]

Where are you getting these numbers? it's a forum, of course there are going to be people on either side of the fence. 9/10 is a huge exaggeration. Also, I'm not offended, if that's what it sounds like.

What numbers? The numbers I quoted from your source you linked?

 

 

I don't see how my argument is weak. I never said that IEMs perform better on average in gaming scenarios, but I know that they can. Not only that, your argument is rather weak by basically saying that "soundstage is everything" and not considering comfort (look at gaming mice), value, etc. which obviously play a prominent role in determining which is better for gaming.

You don't really have any argument at all though in this conversation. I said that IEMs usually are worse than full sized headphones and then you just cherry pick a few which are better than full sized, which is exactly my point, that some are better but generally they are worse. Your posts aren't as much arguments as they are agreeing with me, without you seeming to realize it.

And no, I didn't say soundstage is everything, but for gaming fullsized would most likely be better. Value? Who says IEMs are better value than full sized or on ear? From what I've seen, there isn't really a clear trend that either one is generally better than the other in terms of value. It varies a lot between both IEMs vs IEMs and headphones vs headphones if they are good value or not. Some IEMs are very good value, some are very bad value, and the same thing goes for headphones.

Comfort is subjective and should therefore not even be mentioned in the discussion, because you might as well say IEMs often look better and are therefore better.

 

You are grasping at straws here...

 

 

And how are "performance and value" different subjects? We're talking about which is better for gaming, you neglect the fact that they're of importance as well. We don't even know what games the end user would be playing, directional sound can oftentimes be useless in many games. I've tried gaming with budget IEMs with a rather poor soundstage in Battlefield 3 and it hasn't affected my scores negatively (if any game would benefit from good soundstage it would be that).

I never said performance and value were different subjects, I just said that you are bringing up things I never argued against. What I said was that "IEMs aren't optimal for gaming since you can usually get better sound stage with full sized headphones".

Let's say that IEMs did have better frequency response (they generally don't), then why would that matter while gaming? The sounds in games aren't really that clear to begin with, and a lot of different sounds are playing over each other. The dismissing return for good sounding headphones (as far as frequency response goes) in games is enormous as soon as you move away from really bad audio equipment. To clarify, going from some really cheap and crappy headphones to a decent pair (we're talking like 10 dollar price range to maybe 50 dollar) is a big leap, but over that will not really do that much for gaming. It can do a lot for music listening and such, but not gaming.

 

Comfort is like I said very subjective so it's not even worth mentioning. A know a lot of people who absolutely loathe IEMs and find them horrendous. I prefer them over the normal earbuds when I am using them on the go. At home I always use my fullsized headphones though (K702). I dislike on ear monitors, but some people like them. So yeah, comfort is subjective.

 

Soundstage is important for gaming. Just because your score did not change does not mean it is useless. I would say that soundstage isn't that important in Battlefield since you got a map you can use to locate enemies instead (and there is so much sound in that game that it can be hard to tell anyway). In a game like Quake though, it can be very useful and the more accurate it is, the more useful it becomes.

[Hyydrah]

You don't really have any argument at all though in this conversation. I said that IEMs usually are worse than full sized headphones and then you just cherry pick a few which are better than full sized, which is exactly my point, that some are better but generally they are worse. Your posts aren't as much arguments as they are agreeing with me, without you seeming to realize it.

And no, I didn't say soundstage is everything, but for gaming fullsized would most likely be better. Value? Who says IEMs are better value than full sized or on ear? From what I've seen, there isn't really a clear trend that either one is generally better than the other in terms of value. It varies a lot between both IEMs vs IEMs and headphones vs headphones if they are good value or not. Some IEMs are very good value, some are very bad value, and the same thing goes for headphones.

Comfort is subjective and should therefore not even be mentioned in the discussion, because you might as well say IEMs often look better and are therefore better.

How are you not cherrypicking? If you're going to accuse me of that, read your own posts because you've been doing the exact same thing. My argument is that IEMs can be good for gaming, from what you've said you come across as favoring over ear headphones a lot more than IEMs and I don't think that's justified.

 

You were implying that soundstage is the only important factor. You even said yourself that other factors are "irrelevant". You can say all you want one or the other would "most likely be better" in most games, but until you have actual first hand experience with them rather than relying on other people's opinions it doesn't mean anything.

 

Obviously "some IEMs are a good value, and some are not", likewise with over ear headphones. My point is that on average IEMs seem to hold a superior value, especially considering how the vast majority of IEMs hardly benefit from an amp unlike with over ear headphones.

 

I don't see why comfort "shouldn't be mentioned", it's a valid point and with each headphone there is usually a general consensus as to how comfortable it is.

 

I never said performance and value were different subjects, I just said that you are bringing up things I never argued against. What I said was that "IEMs aren't optimal for gaming since you can usually get better sound stage with full sized headphones".

Let's say that IEMs did have better frequency response (they generally don't), then why would that matter while gaming? The sounds in games aren't really that clear to begin with, and a lot of different sounds are playing over each other. The dismissing return for good sounding headphones (as far as frequency response goes) in games is enormous as soon as you move away from really bad audio equipment. To clarify, going from some really cheap and crappy headphones to a decent pair (we're talking like 10 dollar price range to maybe 50 dollar) is a big leap, but over that will not really do that much for gaming. It can do a lot for music listening and such, but not gaming.

 

Comfort is like I said very subjective so it's not even worth mentioning. A know a lot of people who absolutely loathe IEMs and find them horrendous. I prefer them over the normal earbuds when I am using them on the go. At home I always use my fullsized headphones though (K702). I dislike on ear monitors, but some people like them. So yeah, comfort is subjective.

 

Soundstage is important for gaming. Just because your score did not change does not mean it is useless. I would say that soundstage isn't that important in Battlefield since you got a map you can use to locate enemies instead (and there is so much sound in that game that it can be hard to tell anyway). In a game like Quake though, it can be very useful and the more accurate it is, the more useful it becomes.

Actually, sound quality is quite important while gaming. I remember trying really cheap headphones and not even hearing many sounds that would be beneficial to hear such as footsteps. I never said that it's always important, but it's definitely worth considering especially since these IEMs will likely be a more budget friendly solution and the headphones that these people would be coming from will almost definitely be very poor sounding. Like you said, "going from a 10 dollar to 50 dollar headphone" will be a "big leap".

 

Again, I never said that soundstage isn't important, but you're largely overemphasizing its importance. In popular FPS games like Battlefield 3, headphones with a narrow soundstage won't make as noticeable of a difference in your performance as you may expect (at least from my experience), this is where sound quality does become important (being able to distinguish footsteps from another noise is important).

[LAwLz]

How are you not cherrypicking? If you're going to accuse me of that, read your own posts because you've been doing the exact same thing. My argument is that IEMs can be good for gaming, from what you've said you come across as favoring over ear headphones a lot more than IEMs and I don't think that's justified.

I am not cherry picking. I am in fact doing the exact opposite, I am generalizing (and I have also said several times in the past that what I am saying does not apply to 100% of IEMs, but most of them). I never said that IEMs can't be good for gaming, reread my posts and you will see that I have never, ever said that all IEMs are bad for gaming (all I said that they are not optimal). You are projecting so hard that you could point yourself at a wall and show off PowerPoint presentations.

 

 

You were implying that soundstage is the only important factor. You even said yourself that other factors are "irrelevant". You can say all you want one or the other would "most likely be better" in most games, but until you have actual first hand experience with them rather than relying on other people's opinions it doesn't mean anything.

I never said that they were completely irrelevant. Do you even read my post or do you just read 1/3 of them? What I said was that the diminishing return on those things are huge, or very subjective.

 

 

Obviously "some IEMs are a good value, and some are not", likewise with over ear headphones. My point is that on average IEMs seem to hold a superior value, especially considering how the vast majority of IEMs hardly benefit from an amp unlike with over ear headphones.

I would like some proof of this, because from my experience (as well as a lot of forum posts, including the ones you yourself have posted) you need to go very high end with IEMs (as in, >400 dollars) to get something really good, while you can get some really good for ~200 dollars if you go full size. They they don't benefit from an AMP does not mean they are good value. I could argue that not benefiting from an AMP is a bad thing, because then you can't upgrade your audio setup later without replacing your IEMs, instead of just getting an AMP and keeping the headphones. You are twisting facts to suit your narrow view.

 

 

I don't see why comfort "shouldn't be mentioned", it's a valid point and with each headphone there is usually a general consensus as to how comfortable it is.

It shouldn't be mentioned because it is 99% subjective. Do you know what subjective means? If you ask 10 random people on the street they you might get 10 different answers on how comfortable they are. Some might absolutely hate them, and some might love them. Again, you might as well say IEMs often look better, so therefore they are better. That's also subjective and carries as much weight as an argument as "they are more comfortable". This goes for full sized headphones as well. Just because I like how headphone X fits on my head does not mean someone else will like them as well, because our ears are different and our heads are different. Please try to keep your arguments objective if you want to argue, because otherwise we might as well argue if blue or green is the best color.

 

 

Actually, sound quality is quite important while gaming. I remember trying really cheap headphones and not even hearing many sounds that would be beneficial to hear such as footsteps. I never said that it's always important, but it's definitely worth considering especially since these IEMs will likely be a more budget friendly solution and the headphones that these people would be coming from will almost definitely be very poor sounding. Like you said, "going from a 10 dollar to 50 dollar headphone" will be "big leap".

Are you agreeing with me without realizing it? Sigh... I am sorry, but I don't see how I can even argue with you at this point, because you are insisting on not agreeing with me, even though you agree with me and even use the exact same arguments as I do. First you say I am wrong, and then you "prove" that I am wrong by agreeing me with, using the exact same example as I did...

 

 

Again, I never said that soundstage isn't important, but you're largely overemphasizing its importance. In popular FPS games like Battlefield 3 even headphones with a narrow soundstage won't make any noticeable difference in your performance (at least from my experience), this is where sound quality does become important (being able to distinguish footsteps from another noise is important).

Again, Battlefield 3 isn't a good example like I pointed out before, since you barely have to rely on sounds anyway (here is an anecdotal from me: I sometimes play with music or a movie playing, and my stats doesn't really change, even though the sound of the game is mostly drowned out) since the sound is so muddy and there are so much going on at all times anyway. Being able to distinguish footsteps from other noises does not equal good sound quality by the way. If your headphones overemphasis treble then you might in some situations hear footsteps more clearly, even thought the sound is colored and not neutral. And yes, a wide and accurate soundstage will help you pick out footsteps (even more so than accurate frequency response might in certain situations).

 

Again, I never said all IEMs are bad for gaming. What I said was that they are generally not as good. Just like you said that an omnidirectional microphone isn't optimal for gaming. I can make up situations where it is better than a directional mic. Hell I could even go out and cherry pick some really good omnidirectional mics and compare them to worse directional mics, and in that case I would pretty much be doing what you are doing now (but instead of you defending IEMs, it would be me defending omnidirectional mics).

 

Can we agree that IEMs aren't necessarily bad for gaming (again, I never said all of them were) and that we will have to wait and see how they perform and what they cost before determining if they are good for the price?

[Hyydrah]

I am not cherry picking. I am in fact doing the exact opposite, I am generalizing (and I have also said several times in the past that what I am saying does not apply to 100% of IEMs, but most of them). I never said that IEMs can't be good for gaming, reread my posts and you will see that I have never, ever said that all IEMs are bad for gaming (all I said that they are not optimal). You are projecting so hard that you could point yourself at a wall and show off PowerPoint presentations.

"The soundstage isn't that great (about the ES5)

However, if you really want soundstage, you will probably need full size headphones. (about the Westone 4)

that soundstage would never match an open hp, but if I could get slightly more, I would be happy (about the se530, which according to the thread are fairly similar to the W4)"

 

That isn't cherry picking? If you're going to accuse me of doing it, you should read your own posts first. Also, I never said that you explicitly said they are bad for gaming, but the way that you're describing them is unfavorable and that "only in some instances are they actually good".

 

I never said that they were completely irrelevant. Do you even read my post or do you just read 1/3 of them? What I said was that the diminishing return on those things are huge, or very subjective.

You practically did. We're arguing about how good IEMs vs over ear headphones are for gaming and you won't even talk about any other factors than soundstage.

 

Quote: "Also, you keep bringing up completely different subjects such as "performance" or "value" and so on, while I've been talking about soundstage. Please try to stick to one thing and don't be all over the place when having a discussion."

 

I would like some proof of this, because from my experience (as well as a lot of forum posts, including the ones you yourself have posted) you need to go very high end with IEMs (as in, >400 dollars) to get something really good, while you can get some really good for ~200 dollars if you go full size. They they don't benefit from an AMP does not mean they are good value. I could argue that not benefiting from an AMP is a bad thing, because then you can't upgrade your audio setup later without replacing your IEMs, instead of just getting an AMP and keeping the headphones. You are twisting facts to suit your narrow view.

That thread also says that on ear headphones are a worse value because many "good" ones require an amp to show their full potential. I also never said that because they don't benefit from an amp, they're a good value ("Do you even read my post or do you just read 1/3 of them?")... it's the fact that it's one less component that needs to be purchased or used if you're buying IEMs.

 

It shouldn't be mentioned because it is 99% subjective. Do you know what subjective means? If you ask 10 random people on the street they you might get 10 different answers on how comfortable they are. Some might absolutely hate them, and some might love them. Again, you might as well say IEMs often look better, so therefore they are better. That's also subjective and carries as much weight as an argument as "they are more comfortable". This goes for full sized headphones as well. Just because I like how headphone X fits on my head does not mean someone else will like them as well, because our ears are different and our heads are different. Please try to keep your arguments objective if you want to argue, because otherwise we might as well argue if blue or green is the best color.

I know what subjective means... sound quality is also subjective and yet you don't seem to be against talking about that. There is often a general consensus as to whether a product is ugly, comfortable, has better sound quality, etc. (subjective measurements), so it's at least worth noting.

 

"Please try to keep your arguments objective"? Whether one headphone sounds better than another is subjective, if anyone doesn't know what the meaning of subjectivity is it's you.

 

Are you agreeing with me without realizing it? Sigh... I am sorry, but I don't see how I can even argue with you at this point, because you are insisting on not agreeing with me, even though you agree with me and even use the exact same arguments as I do. First you say I am wrong, and then you "prove" that I am wrong by agreeing me with, using the exact same example as I did...

For some reason I thought you said sound quality is not important for gaming.

 

Again, Battlefield 3 isn't a good example like I pointed out before, since you barely have to rely on sounds anyway (here is an anecdotal from me: I sometimes play with music or a movie playing, and my stats doesn't really change, even though the sound of the game is mostly drowned out) since the sound is so muddy and there are so much going on at all times anyway. Being able to distinguish footsteps from other noises does not equal good sound quality by the way. If your headphones overemphasis treble then you might in some situations hear footsteps more clearly, even thought the sound is colored and not neutral. And yes, a wide and accurate soundstage will help you pick out footsteps (even more so than accurate frequency response might in certain situations).

I never said that "being able to distinguish footsteps from other noises does not equal good sound quality", but it is indicative of it. 

 

I'm not arguing that sound quality is more important than soundstage or anything like that anyway, it really depends on what they'll be used for. The point is that you're overemphasizing soundstage as being the ultimate determining factor for whether headphones are suitable for gaming or not, and won't even consider things like value (These are probably going to be targeted at budget-oriented consumers... If you're only going to be paying <$100 which most gamers wouldn't be very willing to exceed, it's actually quite important).

 

Again, I never said all IEMs are bad for gaming. What I said was that they are generally not as good. Just like you said that an omnidirectional microphone isn't optimal for gaming. I can make up situations where it is better than a directional mic. Hell I could even go out and cherry pick some really good omnidirectional mics and compare them to worse directional mics, and in that case I would pretty much be doing what you are doing now (but instead of you defending IEMs, it would be me defending omnidirectional mics).

I never said that you said "IEMs are bad for gaming" either, but the way you describe them makes them seem undesirable. It's like if you said "luxury cars generally aren't a good purchase", sure you aren't saying that all luxury cars shouldn't be purchased but you're saying that they mostly aren't, save for a few. What I'm saying is that they're better than you think, to be completely honest it doesn't sound like you have much experience with using them in games at all.

 

How was I cherry picking? Battlefield 3 is a fairly good sounding game in some aspects that would benefit from a decent soundstage. It's not like I'm choosing some random game and saying that they work fine, hundreds of thousands of people still play this game actively.

 

Can we agree that IEMs aren't necessarily bad for gaming (again, I never said all of them were) and that we will have to wait and see how they perform and what they cost before determining if they are good for the price?

We already do, what we don't agree on is that IEMs are better for gaming than you think.

[LAwLz]

"The soundstage isn't that great (about the ES5)

However, if you really want soundstage, you will probably need full size headphones. (about the Westone 4)

that soundstage would never match an open hp, but if I could get slightly more, I would be happy (about the se530, which according to the thread are fairly similar to the W4)"

 

That isn't cherry picking? If you're going to accuse me of doing it, you should read your own posts first. Also, I never said that you explicitly said they are bad for gaming, but the way that you're describing them is unfavorable and that "only in some instances are they actually good".

Those were some of the first results I got when I searched for the IEMs YOU personally picked out (and yes, you did by definition cherry pick those 3 IEMs, there is no denying that at all). Even your own link YOU posted shows that the waste majority of users on Head-Fi agrees with me. I have no idea where you got that quote from by the way, because I have never said that. Please don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that they are generally not as good as full sized headphones for things such as soundstage, which is true. That's where this whole debate started, because you seem to think that IEMs are better (not just at soundstage but frequency response and comfort as well, which is just wrong on so many levels).

I am not trying to describe them unfavorably, I am actually citing a lot of people who own several high end headphones as well as IEMs. You on the other hand have just made empty statements and only posted a single source, which mostly agrees with my claims. I find it insulting that you keep making empty claims with no sources whatsoever.

 

 

You practically did. We're arguing about how good IEMs vs over ear headphones are for gaming and you won't even talk about any other factors than soundstage.

 

"Also, you keep bringing up completely different subjects such as "performance" or "value" and so on, while I've been talking about soundstage. Please try to stick to one thing and don't be all over the place when having a discussion."

Yes, I said that IEMs usually aren't optimal for gaming because their soundstage are often not that good, which is true (again, the link you personally posted agrees with that, except for a few quite rare cases where the IEMs actually have a good soundstage, but they are rare and you have to cherry pick when mentioning them). I have also already explained why the other "factors" (actually just one objective and one subjective) aren't really worth talking about. Again, frequency response accuracy is not really needed for gaming and comfort is subjective. If you can think of another factor other than soundstage, frequency response and comfort then sure I'll talk about that as well if you want.

 

 

That thread also says that on ear headphones are a worse value because many "good" ones require an amp to show their full potential. I also never said that because they don't benefit from an amp, they're a good value (Do you even read my post or do you just read 1/3 of them?)... it's the fact that it's one less component that needs to be purchased or used if you're buying IEMs.

Just because they need an AMP to show their full potential does not necessarily mean they are bad value. this statement also heavily implies that IEMs are good value because they don't benefit from an AMP, as you said in this before:

My point is that on average IEMs seem to hold a superior value, especially considering how the vast majority of IEMs hardly benefit from an amp unlike with over ear headphones.

Please note how you say "on average IEMs seem to hold a superior value, especially considering how the vast majority of IEMs hardly benefit from an amp". You are flat out saying that they are better value, because they do not benefit from an AMP. By the way, you don't need to buy an AMP for many headphones. If you don't want to buy an AMP then there are plenty of great options for you. If you want something high end though, then you are going to need an AMP (and no, high end IEMs doesn't come anywhere near very high end headphones so don't give me that "aha, you agree with me because you said high end IEMs often does not need an AMP while full sized headphones will need one")

 

 

I know what subjective means... sound quality is also subjective and yet you don't seem to be against talking about that. There is often a general consensus as to whether a product is ugly, comfortable, has better sound quality, etc. (subjective measurements), so it's at least worth noting.

No, sound quality is not subjective. You can very accurately measure things such as frequency response and harmonic distortion and with that make actual numbers on how a set of headphones sound. That's what people who know audio refers to when they talk about how the sound quality of audio equipment is. Even if you do want colored sound, neutral headphones will generally be better because you can then tweak them accurately with an EQ.

 

 

You clearly aren't familiar with Battlefield 3. It is most definitely not "muddy", and not drowned out at all, at least on the servers that I played on. I never said that "being able to distinguish footsteps from other noises does not equal good sound quality" either, but it is indicative of it.

Well I guess it depends on what you are used to. I am used to games with very clear and distinct sounds for each thing (such as Quake) while Battlefield 3 does have a lot of muddy sounds and a lot of them playing at the same time. Yes I used to play Battlefield 3. It's also different on how you play the game. In Battlefield you usually got 15 or so teammates who makes a lot of sounds, and then 16 enemies which also makes sounds. Compare that to 1vs1 in Quake where you only have to listen for a single person. You have to admit that it is a lot more chaotic with 31 other players all making different sounds, vs only a single other person making sounds. That's when it's very important to be able to determine where someone is.

Listen to this:

Notice the huge amount of complete silence? Now compare that to this (especially at around 1 minute in when he gets into combat, the sound is not nearly as clear as in Quake):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u8hbv4lsHQ

And that's without factoring in that in you should be speaking to the other players when playing Battlefield 3, which adds even more sounds.

 

I was telling an anecdote when I said the sound was drowned out. Reread that part again please. I wasn't quoting you when I said "being able to distinguish footsteps from other noises does not equal good sound quality", that was a statement I made, and I explained the reasoning behind it as well.

 

 

I'm not arguing that sound quality is more important than soundstage or anything like that anyway, it really depends on what they'll be used for. The point is that you're overemphasizing soundstage as being the ultimate determining factor for whether headphones are suitable for gaming or not, and won't even consider things like value (hello? These are probably going to be targeted at budget-oriented consumers... If you're only going to be paying <$100, it's actually quite important).

Well the discussion became mostly soundstage oriented because you said that IEMs had better soundstage than full sized. Here is a quote:

 

IEMs usually has a very small soundstage, which makes it a lot harder to determine the source of the sound relative to yourself. There are a few IEMs with good soundstage, but they are rare and my guess is that these CM won't be that great either. Maybe I am wrong though.

They can outperform over ear headphones by quite a substantial amount, look at the Westone ES5's or 4/4R's for example. From my experience their performance/dollar ratio is superior to that of over ear headphones, actually.

 

I just used that as an example of why IEMs aren't optimal for gaming. I have never said that it's the only thing that matters ever. I was just making an example of where IEMs falls short compared to a lot of full sized headphones, in an area which is important to games. I guess you could say that for gaming, you don't really need that great headphones/IEMs at all really. That does not mean that IEMs are the crème de la crème for gaming though.

If we are talking about what's optimal for something, when why bring in value? Again, I could completely switch this conversation around (putting you in my current position, and vice versa) by starting to argue that omnidirectional mics are optimal for gaming, compared to highly directional mics. Again, I never said that IEMs are necessarily bad for gaming, just that they are usually not optimal.