Cerberus: The 18L, mATX, USA-made enclosure

[PlayfulPhoenix]

I disagree, if you get this thing to market at a reasonable price I think it will sell like crazy 

 

I mean, look at the NCASE that had multiple runs of production

 

Ah, we appreciate your optimism   But the success of Nova really is anything but certain, for a few reasons:

1. Nova's primary market is for system builders, so we are addressing a small market, but within that we are catering mostly towards SFF enthusiasts, which is a small segment within that small group.
2. Even if Nova is as compelling and desirable as is possible across that pool of people, our scale prevents us from selling it at the ~$80-$140 price point that many run-of-the-mill cases ask for, which unfortunately puts up a significant barrier of purchase for many.
3. Finally, we don't have the marketing muscle of the likes of Corsair or other big players (let alone any real marketing at all, actually, given the cost). Our outreach is limited to forums (such as here!), contests (also such as here!), and certain websites that may or may not cover (or review) our work. So we are additionally limited in informing people about Nova to begin with.

We are certainly doing everything we can to address the issues of appeal, price, and awareness, and I don't say all this to shoot down any optimism we all have. I believe strongly that Nova will be a very compelling case, and that the potential success of it is high. But it would be irresponsible of us to not recognize, and work to address, the many headwinds that will fight against us providing Nova to the community. So the possibilities and pitfalls need to be considered in balance.

[willemdoom1]

Lets be honest, all of these points also applied to the NCASE and those sold like crazy. But I agree its better to be realistic then optimistic.

[PlayfulPhoenix]

Lets be honest, all of these points also applied to the NCASE and those sold like crazy. But I agree its better to be realistic then optimistic.

 

Perhaps, but there's enough different between the two projects that I hesitate to make a comparison (sample size of one, and all of that).

 

Anyway, I did want to share with everyone that we're looking to finalize design changes to Nova in the coming few weeks or so. In part, we want to state that as a progress update, but we also want to make sure that everyone's thoughts, ideas and perspectives are all voiced and heard, since community feedback and brainstorming have been an important part of the design process from the beginning. Consequently, I'd encourage anyone who hasn't shared or participated, to do so, if they are so inclined. Even silly or unfeasible ideas can be the seed for really clever or practical ones - which is why we emphasize sharing over restraint. (It's easy enough to wade through a bunch of ideas, not so much to consider the ones that are never expressed ).

[Kabini]

 

Either way we would add a second 120mm mount above the front 120mm to possibly allow a front 240mm rad if the video card is short enough or for a 120mm rad for the CPU.

 

 

 

Wondering what kind of space is left in front when using a GTX 980. Is it potentially possible to squeeze in an 120 AIO Rad + Fan into that that space?

[PlayfulPhoenix]

Wondering what kind of space is left in front when using a GTX 980. Is it potentially possible to squeeze in an 120 AIO Rad + Fan into that that space?

 

Funny you should ask this, since I was actually wondering that exact idea myself a few days ago. With a GTX 980 installed, there's a bit over 44mm of clearance between the end of the video card, and the front of the case.

 

That's not much at all, unfortunately. This image perhaps illustrates it best (that's a 25mm Noctua installed in the front):

 

It is enough where an AIO with a thin fan could potentially work, but you'd have to check the thickness of the radiator to be sure. Frankly, though, you'll pretty much always have a better option: in the current configuration, the side bracket can hold a thick 120mm or 140mm radiator and fan, and even if we do end up supporting rear-mounted ATX/SFX power supplies, you'd be able to put a 120mm AIO at the top of the case (with much improved clearances that would easily fit most fans and radiators).

 

I suppose it would be a bummer if you wanted to fit a 240mm radiator at the front, though? You'd have to use a thin fan for the bottom half? (And that's assuming you populated all four PCI slots and couldn't fit the 240mm radiator on the bottom.)

[SuggestionBot]

Consequently, I'd encourage anyone who hasn't shared or participated, to do so, if they are so inclined. Even silly or unfeasible ideas can be the seed for really clever or practical ones - which is why we emphasize sharing over restraint. (It's easy enough to wade through a bunch of ideas, not so much to consider the ones that are never expressed ).

Very well, you asked for it, so I caved and made an account. Your site mentions watercooling (for the very brave) and you claim to support a specific reservoir, however there is no way to put a pump in the case without giving up a GPU or something important. (BTW i consider that a strength of your current design, I really like your approach of doing one thing really well and to hell with anything else that it cant do; efficient!) This is crazy because if you're not going to do a dual GPU setup, it would be a waste of the potential of this case!

 

however... Aiboh's recent post that included the ATX PSU got me thinking... what about a design with an SFX PSU in a similar position? The idea being with a few minor concessions in size, we might be able to support a fully internal CPU and 2xGPU custom watercooling loop.

 

To start we would need to move the SFX PSU to above the CPU as you've been playing around with. Perhaps we could even put it on a similar mounting bracket as what you have right now with the AIO coolers, that way, if you need to work on something, you unplug the cables from the PSU and swing it out.

 

The next step is to make a bracket that is attached to the top and/or back side panel of the case in which you could place a small pump/res combo. Pick out a popular to support as you did with that reservoir. the only thing left is to make sure there is enough clearance to route wires and tubing and for the rads, (I imagine this bracket might also be where we stick our SSDs but lets be honest: if I have the money for this, I could probably be bothered to upgrade to M.2).

 

To me, this would mean:

• make the top of the PSU rest flush with the top of the mobo
• the pumpres sit flush with the front of the mobo and as close to the access side panel as common right angle fittings allow.
• there would need to be an increase in size to allow for clearance for the GPU waterblock connections, this might prove handy later.*
• the last component is to allow for at least 2*240 (4x120 is a good floor for this many components) slim rads and fans on the front and the either the top or the bottom, (but not both), I'm leaning towards the bottom but it might be up to cooling performance.
• not necessarily a requirement, but you would probably be daft not to use custom length cabling.

finally we reach the problems/unknowns for me.

1. Clearly this is not meant for practicality, so it would be WAY harder of a sell than the current implementation of the Nova that you were already worried about because...
2. ... it would cost more to assemble the case since there are now a few more pieces and...
3. ... this design likely precludes the use of most AIOs and aftermarket heatsinks if you don't want to build a custom loop. (although you seem confident that it wouldn't in previous posts, I still consider it a mark against this design)
4. This is likely pushing what's capable of an SFX PSU, pretty much no headroom.
5. I have a feeling that the pump in the spot that it would be in would prevent access to the RAM on most builds. I think that would mean that the loop would have to be drained and the pump and possibly that bracket on which it sits be removable.
6. This would be a PAIN to leaktest IMO.

I know this has a snowballs chance in hell and if I ever wanted a case like this, odds are I'd be using protocase myself, but damn it if it wouldn't be the sickest build ever.

 

BTW totally psyched about the Nova anyway, count me in.

[NerdNinja]

You could defiantly fit a front 120 aio/rad if you got some Itx cards. Like the R9 285 compact.  

[PlayfulPhoenix]

Very well, you asked for it, so I caved and made an account.

 

Welcome! 

Your site mentions watercooling (for the very brave) and you claim to support a specific reservoir, however there is no way to put a pump in the case without giving up a GPU or something important. (BTW i consider that a strength of your current design, I really like your approach of doing one thing really well and to hell with anything else that it cant do; efficient!) This is crazy because if you're not going to do a dual GPU setup, it would be a waste of the potential of this case!

 

I would strongly, strongly recommend that any custom loops inside Nova employ an integrated pump within the CPU waterblock, as is the case with Swiftech's Apogee Drive II (as an example). Alternatively, certain expandable AIO's will work (and can be mounted on the bottom), which integrate both the pump and the reservoir in the loop. These would allow for you to keep the whole thing internal, no case redesign needed.

 

Currently, compatibility with most expandable AIO's is very restricted, but we're looking into a design change that would increase the number of expandable AIO's that would work inside Nova. Note that most sealed AIO's already do, however, especially with the side bracket.

 

Also, I wouldn't say that builds without two GPUs are a waste of potential at all - there are all sorts of things that can use the space in lieu of a second graphics card. I could see someone putting a lot of storage on the bottom, for example, or a very thick radiator that will let them overclock the living daylights out of their CPU/GPU. Or a few PCI devices (storage, RAID, sound card, etc). Or, maybe, they're sticking with one GPU for now, but want the option to expand in the future... There are all kinds of use cases.

 

 

however... Aiboh's recent post that included the ATX PSU got me thinking... what about a design with an SFX PSU in a similar position? The idea being with a few minor concessions in size, we might be able to support a fully internal CPU and 2xGPU custom watercooling loop.

 

To start we would need to move the SFX PSU to above the CPU as you've been playing around with. Perhaps we could even put it on a similar mounting bracket as what you have right now with the AIO coolers, that way, if you need to work on something, you unplug the cables from the PSU and swing it out.

 

The prototype bracket Aiboh's having made works just as you describe, actually, with regards to how it attaches to the hinged bracket! It also has the mount points for SFX (as well as ATX), and we'd in all likelihood carry that support through to the final version if we do decide to include rear-mounted PSU support.

 

 

The next step is to make a bracket that is attached to the top and/or back side panel of the case in which you could place a small pump/res combo. Pick out a popular to support as you did with that reservoir. the only thing left is to make sure there is enough clearance to route wires and tubing and for the rads, (I imagine this bracket might also be where we stick our SSDs but lets be honest: if I have the money for this, I could probably be bothered to upgrade to M.2).

 

To me, this would mean:

• make the top of the PSU rest flush with the top of the mobo
• the pumpres sit flush with the front of the mobo and as close to the access side panel as common right angle fittings allow.
• there would need to be an increase in size to allow for clearance for the GPU waterblock connections, this might prove handy later.*
• the last component is to allow for at least 2*240 (4x120 is a good floor for this many components) slim rads and fans on the front and the either the top or the bottom, (but not both), I'm leaning towards the bottom but it might be up to cooling performance.
• not necessarily a requirement, but you would probably be daft not to use custom length cabling.

finally we reach the problems/unknowns for me.

1. Clearly this is not meant for practicality, so it would be WAY harder of a sell than the current implementation of the Nova that you were already worried about because...
2. ... it would cost more to assemble the case since there are now a few more pieces and...
3. ... this design likely precludes the use of most AIOs and aftermarket heatsinks if you don't want to build a custom loop. (although you seem confident that it wouldn't in previous posts, I still consider it a mark against this design)
4. This is likely pushing what's capable of an SFX PSU, pretty much no headroom.
5. I have a feeling that the pump in the spot that it would be in would prevent access to the RAM on most builds. I think that would mean that the loop would have to be drained and the pump and possibly that bracket on which it sits be removable.
6. This would be a PAIN to leaktest IMO.
7.  

 

So, one thing that Aiboh is already exploring is the opportunity to mount drives (or something similar) on the side bracket, towards the front of the case, if a rear-mounted SFX power supply is used. Do you think that that location, or the top-front of the case (where the SFX power supply would have been), could work as locations for the pump/reservoir? (if you couldn't use the bottom, and wanted to keep it all inside the case.)

 

For something like custom watercooling, we're generally very hesitant to add volume or complexity/cost in order to make very narrow builds work, since that's something that few benefit from and many eat the cost for. But if we're adding 120mm mounts to the side and front-top by virtue of supporting rear-mounted PSU's, then we may incidentally provide support for more pump and reservoir options. It honestly isn't something we've explored fully yet. 

 

 

You could defiantly fit a front 120 aio/rad if you got some Itx cards. Like the R9 285 compact.  

 

Certainly - I was only speaking towards the use of front-mounted radiators in builds with at least one GTX 980/Titan X.

[SuggestionBot]

I would strongly, strongly recommend that any custom loops inside Nova employ an integrated pump within the CPU waterblock, as is the case with Swiftech's Apogee Drive II (as an example). Alternatively, certain expandable AIO's will work (and can be mounted on the bottom), which integrate both the pump and the reservoir in the loop. These would allow for you to keep the whole thing internal, no case redesign needed.

 

I had not even considered using one of these. I wonder if any cpu mounted pump is up to the task of pushing through 3 waterblocks and 4x120 rads (or maybe even 3 if we're going for size here).

 

 

Also, I wouldn't say that builds without two GPUs are a waste of potential at all - there are all sorts of things that can use the space in lieu of a second graphics card. I could see someone putting a lot of storage on the bottom, for example, or a very thick radiator that will let them overclock the living daylights out of their CPU/GPU. Or a few PCI devices (storage, RAID, sound card, etc). Or, maybe, they're sticking with one GPU for now, but want the option to expand in the future... There are all kinds of use cases.

 

The metric I am using is "can I do this in an M1?" so anything where the answer is no is obviously not a waste of its potential I just wasn't being very general.

 

The prototype bracket Aiboh's having made works just as you describe, actually, with regards to how it attaches to the hinged bracket! It also has the mount points for SFX (as well as ATX), and we'd in all likelihood carry that support through to the final version if we do decide to include rear-mounted PSU support.

 

That sounds awesome. I'm glad we had the same idea.

 

So, one thing that Aiboh is already exploring is the opportunity to mount drives (or something similar) on the side bracket, towards the front of the case, if a rear-mounted SFX power supply is used. Do you think that that location, or the top-front of the case (where the SFX power supply would have been), could work as locations for the pump/reservoir? (if you couldn't use the bottom, and wanted to keep it all inside the case.)

 

I would think a bracket that attaches via those little silicone screw washers would be a good balance between noise dampening, removability, and cost of production. For an example of what I mean, my current case, the Phanteks Enthoo Evolv uses these with its SSD mounts behind the motherboard (though it's unnecessary since SSDs don't vibrate).

 

As for placement, having it attach to the same panel that the motherboard does is ideal as long as it doesn't block the use of any fans or rads that you'd want to use with it.

 

Again, the only way to make that work is to pick some exemplary pump/res combo and build it to support at least that, as you have done in the past.

 

 

For something like custom watercooling, we're generally very hesitant to add volume or complexity/cost in order to make very narrow builds work, since that's something that few benefit from and many eat the cost for. But if we're adding 120mm mounts to the side and front-top by virtue of supporting rear-mounted PSU's, then we may incidentally provide support for more pump and reservoir options. It honestly isn't something we've explored fully yet. 

 

Here's the best part, I personally could not afford to do a custom loop. Even if you could somehow manage it, I simply could not do it the way I wanted on the budget I have right now. One day I will and I hope to use a case like this to do it in, I just like to fantasize about these things, you know?

 

In reality I talk about two different cases, one that is as small as possible for air cooling, and another for watercooling.

 

For the actual case that I intend to buy, I would want you to make it as small as possible for air cooling. The prototype was brilliant, If I could change it in any way, I would make the bottom smaller. I have no want for loud HDDs or fans and am willing to sacrifice the disk space for it. If you have to make the case bigger to support ATX, I would prefer you not support it. SFX is good enough and I will live happily with the PSU fan wailing for mercy as I push that thing to its limit. If I wanted a bigger, more silent PSU, I'd get a bigger case.

 

This is not to say that I think you are wasting your time trying out the ATX option or optimizing for cooling performance. I appreciate your work, and wouldn't mind waiting a while for a case that Kimera Industries says is as quality as they can reasonably make it. I also want to clarify that if you can manage these options without compromise, they would certainly be welcome.

 

But I want to bring up something I said briefly at first. I find the Nova's lack of support for many things a feature. In a world where all products must appeal to as broad of an audience as possible, that is VERY appealing to me. It is not a weakness to do one thing so well that you cannot do all the other things also.

 

I also understand that you want this product to appeal to as many people as possible because you have a business that is just getting started. I would understand the business decision of making room for HDDs simply because it would make the case appeal to a wider audience.

[Kabini]

My dream build will be 2x GPUs in SLI with a CPU being cooled by a 240 AIO. But unfortunately size limitations prevent this

I guess this is all a part of being in the uber compact SFX club.

[Aibohphobia]

In reality I talk about two different cases, one that is as small as possible for air cooling, and another for watercooling.

 

That's really what will have to be done, a custom loop is possible in Nova but certainly not ideal but better support really needs more space. I have vague ideas for a water cooling oriented design that I may tackle at some point:

 

 

 

My dream build will be 2x GPUs in SLI with a CPU being cooled by a 240 AIO. But unfortunately size limitations prevent this

I guess this is all a part of being in the uber compact SFX club.

 

Thick 140mm rad does almost as well as 240mm, just a thought.

[Aibohphobia]

Still need plenty of tweaking but the 2 x 3.5" bracket is taking shape:

 

 

Here it is mounted to the side bracket along with a SFX-L PSU.

[SuggestionBot]

 

Still need plenty of tweaking but the 2 x 3.5" bracket is taking shape:

 

Here it is mounted to the side bracket along with a SFX-L PSU.

 

 

Impressive. I could see this working for a lot of people. How will an SFX(-L) PSU mount to that bracket? (I have never owned an SFX PSU) That pick makes me assume the orientation is that the cable side is on the left in the pic. Is this case design any larger than the prototype? is the HDD bracket on the swing arm too? If so I like that idea, it just feels nice.

 

The only thing I don't like is that in a case this small, I would prefer to have custom length power cables. with the PSU on the swing arm like that, I intended to remove the cabling everytime I needed to open it up, but with that bracket in the way, it would make that a rather fussy mess. I think I see your justification for putting the PSU that far from the back panel, you perhaps want to leave room for that 92mm fan. Maybe an SFX PSU might leave more room. Would it be possible to rotate that bracket such that the bottom of the HDDs are facing the front of the case?

[willemdoom1]

Your not ditching to bottom 3.5" inch drive support I hope..

[PlayfulPhoenix]

Your not ditching to bottom 3.5" inch drive support I hope..

 

Not at all - Aiboh is just trying to design a bracket (for a stack of two 3.5" drives) that can be mounted on the side, as well as the bottom. Since we're exploring the possibility of supporting rear-mounted power supplies, he had noticed that a rear-mounted SFX PSU would leave enough space on the side bracket to also hold the HDD bracket. So, he's just ensuring that it can be mounted there as well. That option/functionality wouldn't at all impact anything else.

 

In fact, pretty much all of the design changes we've been working on just introduce additional functionality or compatibility, at zero expense (other than relative low cost for something like a bracket). And if there is a change that did exclude an existing feature (like with the handle), we would be very clear about that "cost", and only make that change if the benefits were substantial enough.

[willemdoom1]

 

In fact, pretty much all of the design changes we've been working on just introduce additional functionality or compatibility, at zero expense (other than relative low cost for something like a bracket). And if there is a change that did exclude an existing feature (like with the handle), we would be very clear about that "cost", and only make that change if the benefits were substantial enough.

Ah, that sounds very nice. I'm looking forward to the final release even if it will take another 6 months to develop the final design, it will be worth be worth the wait.

[Aibohphobia]

Impressive. I could see this working for a lot of people. How will an SFX(-L) PSU mount to that bracket? (I have never owned an SFX PSU) That pick makes me assume the orientation is that the cable side is on the left in the pic. Is this case design any larger than the prototype? is the HDD bracket on the swing arm too? If so I like that idea, it just feels nice.

 

The only thing I don't like is that in a case this small, I would prefer to have custom length power cables. with the PSU on the swing arm like that, I intended to remove the cabling everytime I needed to open it up, but with that bracket in the way, it would make that a rather fussy mess. I think I see your justification for putting the PSU that far from the back panel, you perhaps want to leave room for that 92mm fan. Maybe an SFX PSU might leave more room. Would it be possible to rotate that bracket such that the bottom of the HDDs are facing the front of the case?

 

I've added extra mounting holes for SFX, though it does leave the upper right corner (from the perspective of that screenshot) unsupported. Case is the same size and both the PSU and 3.5" bracket are mounted to the side bracket.

 

 

Yes, having the PSU on the hinged bracket is much less practical with the HDDs in the way since it's not as easy to unplug the connectors. The top panel is removable so it wouldn't be impossible.

 

 

The gap between the PSU and the rear of the case is both for the rear 92mm fan but also the AC inlet. The 3.5" HDDs won't really fit with the connectors facing forward except with a SFX (not SFX-L) mounted directly to the rear of the chassis.

[JoaoPRSousa]

@Aibohphobia

Will you ever work on an iTX case?

I know there are lots of compact iTX cases on the market already *cough* NCASE M1 *cough*. But one from you guys would be amazing

As an example. Soemthing super compact, with short GPU support only, air cooling only.

Of course that there are lots of people that want to WC their PCs but hey, not even everyone can afford WC.

[juanton]

That one rad on the door literally gives no craps.

[Aibohphobia]

Will you ever work on an iTX case?

I know there are lots of compact iTX cases on the market already *cough* NCASE M1 *cough*. But one from you guys would be amazing

As an example. Soemthing super compact, with short GPU support only, air cooling only.

 

I've considered something like a traditional tower layout, but with only SFX/SFX-L support and no 5.25" bays.

[JoaoPRSousa]

I've considered something like a traditional tower layout, but with only SFX/SFX-L support and no 5.25" bays.

Nice! I would like to see some renders of that

[Aibohphobia]

 

So about 9L.

[waggythegeek]

What about external rads?

[JoaoPRSousa]

- snip -

 

So about 9L.

 

So much YES

[TheTiger]

-snip-

 

So about 9L.

 

If you plan an ITX Case, I would rather go like this:

 

 

Blue: Motherboard

Red: Graphics Card

Yellow: SFX-PSU (since I see no reason to use an ATX one (600W from the Silverstone one should be enough for one card))

Green: 120mm Fan (there could also be one @ the rear

 

+ 8,25 Liter

+ Big Air-Coolers supported (like in your design)

+ Longer GraphicsCard Support

 

-  PSU Cable has to run through the case to the back

 

° SSD Mountings above the PSU (like in your design).

° You could make it about 4cm (~1,575") lower (would restrict Air-Cooler Support) (ONLY 6,42 Liter)

° Airflow is not as linear as in your design, but focusing more on the GPU

 

Of course it would be a bit bigger caused by metal-thickness.

Love this thread, so many people with so many different/great ideas!