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Recon801

I'm buying a 3090, and this is my logic

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3 minutes ago, Recon801 said:

heard some youtuber tell you SLI is dead and you just believed them.

idk if they're still widespread implemented right now or not, but I know even when they were, some games had framepacing issues (stutters), that's why it's not preferred even if the avg fps is higher.

 

so it's basically:

- not all games supports SLI, but all games definitely support single GPU

- some games dont scale well

- some games dont implement it well (stuttering issues, screen tearing issues)

 

so it's basically a bad decision for the majority of the cases. but if the games you play scales well, and have no issues with it, it is a valid path to take.


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16 minutes ago, Recon801 said:

Yes, there is a physical SLI bridge on the 3090......

 

Honestly, the thing that has shocked me more than anything on this thread is the massive lack of knowledge regarding SLI. I feel like most of you don't use SLI, but heard some youtuber tell you SLI is dead and you just believed them. SLI is ABSOLUTELY alive and well, despite Nvidia trying to kill it so you can't use older gen cards for longer. 3 and 4 way SLI, yeah pretty dead, but 2 way, damn totally worth it. I literally play games right now, today in 2020, and get 100% scaling. If I can go from 40fps to 80fps that is not dead. Not even close.

 

If you have a 1080ti right now, you shouldn't buy a 3080, you should buy another 1080ti. You will get the exact same performance in game, and will actually have more vram. Who ever cares about ray tracing, its still barely supported by any games. You want to talk about dead, ray tracing is dead, not SLI. And in the tiny handful of games that do support it, it kills your fps so much that you wont use it.

As an FYI I edited out that statement around 10 minutes ago (a few minutes before you posted)

With that said, the main complaint isn't SLI, it's just that your plan is not economically sound and results in a worse overall experience. Microstutter. 

[16ms, 16ms, 16ms, 16ms] between frames is WAY better than [15ms, 1ms, 15ms, 1ms, 15ms, 1ms, 15ms, 1ms] even though the latter has 2x the frame rate. 

It's probably better to think of frame rates in terms of the two highest frame times in a 3 frame sliding-window. 

For what it's worth I measure stuff for a living and could conceivably buy 100 3090s in cash... it's just, inefficient for use cases that aren't making you money. 

 

16 minutes ago, Recon801 said:

If you have a 1080ti right now, you shouldn't buy a 3080, you should buy another 1080ti. You will get the exact same performance in game, and will actually have more vram. Who ever cares about ray tracing, its still barely supported by any games. You want to talk about dead, ray tracing is dead, not SLI. And in the tiny handful of games that do support it, it kills your fps so much that you wont use it.

 

That would create more stutter, more heat and more noise. 

At least in my case, trying to brute force outdated tech to get stuff to work is counter productive to my audio set up (which costs more than a 3090). You might not have high standards when it comes to stutter or noise. It is possible to save a little cash this way...

Except you aren't saving cash (2x the cost for a small performance gain) and you really should just be horse trading cards at more regular intervals instead of trying to get old stuff to run better. 

What you're doing is analogous to trying to turbocharge a 1965 Ford Mustang... It's still going to be loud, slow and inefficient. It might even smell a little funny. 


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SLI is dead/dying because they couldn't make it as practical as focusing on single card solutions for most problems, the only place with niche use of SLI is in high vram usage so memory is used more efficiently/there's more of it.


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A twin SLI 3090 24GB setup is going to net you more performance than a 3080 10GB. One can argue how much more, but it is going to be more.

I assume you are not budget constrained, so twin 3090 is IMO the setup that is going to net you the absolute highest amount of GPU performance possible with consumer hardware. That setup is only going to be beaten by an hypotetical single/twin 3090 Ti 48GB or by a leprechaun AMD card.

If you want the most GPU that money can buy, twin 3090 24GB is the way to go. You can build an incredible system with two GPU waterblocks.

 

If you value efficiency and can wait, a possible 3080 20GB would surely dispell all your vram worries.

AMD also might come along with an hypotetical GPU with 16GB of vram and performance to possibly compete with a 3070 or 3080. Big navi likely won't bring back crossfire, but with PCI4.0 multigpu low level api can take advantage of multiple GPU to an extent.

 

I wouldn't buy SLI 3090, but that's me. If you want the best, twin SLI is going to give you the best for at least six months or more and will last you a long time.


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SLI as you know it is officially dead. The 3090 does not support it. It only supports DX12/Vulkan Multi-GPU which currently works in exactly 14 games.

 

Given that Multi GPU is exclusive to $3000 video cards it is highly unlikely game developers will spend time coding for it.

 

https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5082

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1 hour ago, Lord Bloobus said:

the only place with niche use of SLI is in high vram usage so memory is used more efficiently/there's more of it.

SLI dont scale memory, multi GPU and NVLink does

Multi GPU depends on software, NVLink is only for quadro cards, Geforce uses the same connector but run on SLI mode


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Another thing I just thought of is the economics behind SLI. I would also say it's not going to stay viable since MOST consumers are not willing money for 2 high end graphic cards even if it gives a decent performance boost. Most people just won't want to dig that deep or can't dig that deep at once to be able to afford 2 high end GPUs at once, thats required for SLI. Perhaps its a viable purchase now with the 980 TI but the fact is, new cards are way to expensive for enough consumers to buy 2 graphics cards that SLI will die out due to lack of people using it.

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Depending on what amd brings to the table NVIDIA seems to have a 16gb or 20 gb 3080 planned if needed (more or less confirmed by AIB leaks). If this comes in at under or at 1k it could be an option that brings much better value and will age better than the current 3080. Can you wait a few months? 

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20 hours ago, Recon801 said:

Regarding the price, I'm assuming a purchase of a 3090 at launch for $1,500, and then the purchase of a used one at the 50 series launch for a boost in performace. Graphics cards typically sell for about 25% value after the 2nd launch. For example, a Pascal Titan X msrp was $1,200, but now that the 30 series is releasing you can purchase one for $290-350 used.

 

While I do make projections, I believe they are very realistic given past launches and interations from Nvidia. The "leak" regarding a 20gb 3080 is from a single unreliable source, and several people have simply repeated it. It doesn't make sense for Nvidia to release a 20gb 3080 as it would make the 3090 obsolete immediately.

 

Regarding SLI, do you run SLI. Because I always have, and I'm telling you all the major games launches do support it. Call of Duty, Battlefield, Ark, Mass Effect, Fallout, Anthem, Red Dead. I would in fact be interested if you could find any major release that doesn't support sli. I'm sure there's one out there, but the notion that "SLI is dead" is simply not true. Excellent scaling to, I'd say I average about 60-70% like I say previously, but I get 100% in several titles as well.

Not necessarily true as we go forward. Most people play at 1080p, and for that you don't need that powerful of a card. Thus, the higher end cards will hold their value for far longer, and that's been shown true with the 1080Ti, a card which has only lost about half of it's value over the same time frame you've stated.

 

The 20GB leak is certainly not from a single source. It's even been shown on Gigabyte product sheets. It also wouldn't make the 3090 obsolete as it has other things than just VRAM differences, it's a more powerful card. With that logic, the 2080 would have dethroned the 2080Ti, since their VRAM numbers were similar.

 

I don't have to run SLI to know that it's not worth it. I can simply watch virtually every creator that has said it's a poor choice. You know, people that work with tech for a living, rather than one person, who sunk the money into it had would thus have bias towards it. Have you ran proper benchmarks to come to your claimed figures, or are you just formulating numbers out of thin air?


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17 hours ago, Recon801 said:

Who ever cares about ray tracing, its still barely supported by any games. You want to talk about dead, ray tracing is dead, not SLI. And in the tiny handful of games that do support it, it kills your fps so much that you wont use it.

Denying new tech when talking about how you would deal with future upgrade plans. Ironic.

 

17 hours ago, Recon801 said:

I literally play games right now, today in 2020, and get 100% scaling. If I can go from 40fps to 80fps that is not dead. Not even close.

Then why not get a pair of used 2080Ti for SLI? Faster than a 3090 at the cost of a 3080 (more VRAM too) and widely available.


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On 9/19/2020 at 2:44 PM, Recon801 said:
.

it's really just a matter of how much you are willing to pay for the fastest single card, or for each % the 3090 is better than the 3080, how much are you paying. If it's 10% then i personally won't get it, but 15% is borderline. Another thing to consider is how the best 3080 oc compares to the best 3090 oc and actual performance under those conditions.

 

SLI is dead, anything (exc. 3090) u can SLI gets trashed by the 3080 without the bugs (imagine 2080 ti sli vs 3080). 

 

I'd suggest seeing Control maxed out (in person) with RT on without DLSS before trashing on ray tracing, DLSS is free 30-60% boost to fps for those who don't mind a little blur.

 

Waiting on 3090 benchmarks.


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On 9/19/2020 at 3:53 PM, MadPistol said:

What monitor do you have?

SLI is dead because as of January 2021, Nvidia will no longer be making SLI profiles. 

That clearly does not mean that SLI is dead. The article for last week makes it clear that DX12 and Vulkan avail the advantages without the need for the profiles. A tech does not need to be mainstream to be influential, in fact influencing the future rarely is mainstream.


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19 hours ago, Recon801 said:

If you have a 1080ti right now, you shouldn't buy a 3080, you should buy another 1080ti. Y

Uh no, don't base yourself on these fake videos it's just a montage. SLI is something of the past.

 

Everyone who had a 1080 Ti could have waited the 3000 series and now the 3080 is here... it's a good upgrade but since this is nvidia if the 1080 Ti still does the trick might as well wait for a 3080 Ti or 3080 Super still.


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20 hours ago, Recon801 said:

Honestly, the thing that has shocked me more than anything on this thread is the massive lack of knowledge regarding SLI.

Jay talks about SLI repeatedly in this. You should watch it.


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21 hours ago, comander said:

1. It's not JUST the cost of the card, it's the cost of the card PLUS interest. If your capital cost is 5%, then the extra $800 at 5% per year means $40 worth of extra costs.

Point taken and technically correct, though based on the OP's logic I really dont think the alternative was putting the money into an index fund for growth vs buying 2x 3090's, just sayin :) 


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Posted · Original PosterOP
On 9/20/2020 at 12:09 PM, dizmo said:

I don't have to run SLI to know that it's not worth it. I can simply watch virtually every creator that has said it's a poor choice. You know, people that work with tech for a living, rather than one person, who sunk the money into it had would thus have bias towards it. Have you ran proper benchmarks to come to your claimed figures, or are you just formulating numbers out of thin air?

I'm not formulating numbers out of thin air, you are welcome to watch any video online comparing sli performance against other generations, I have already posted examples in this thread. What graphics card do you have?

 

I know from my own testing, and others that sli 980ti offers equal performance to a 2080ti.

I know from my own testing and others that sli 1080ti offers equal performance to a 3080.

 

20 hours ago, BTGbullseye said:

Jay talks about SLI repeatedly in this. You should watch it.

lol, I appreciate the link, but I'm not going to watch a 5 hour video to find a comment on sli. Maybe you can give a rough timestamp.

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2 minutes ago, Recon801 said:

lol, I appreciate the link, but I'm not going to watch a 5 hour video to find a comment on sli. Maybe you can give a rough timestamp.

If you start at the 4 hour mark, they talk about it every other superchat they answer.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
6 minutes ago, BTGbullseye said:

If you start at the 4 hour mark, they talk about it every other superchat they answer.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

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SLI support will only continue to be deprecated over time so should not be seen as any long-term feature for gaming in your logic in my opinion. It is knocking on death's doors.

 

A lot of your post clearly indicates you are making assumptions.

 

It essentially boils down to this: Do you want to spend 114% more money over the 3080 for maybe at best 10% more performance and 24GB GDDR6X? The memory alone won't carry you to the 60-series if we figure generational cycles are 2 years now. That's 6 years. The 3090 will have other more basic performance issues before the vRAM is saturated in my opinion.

 

It's a poor value and really the only logic I can see is NVLink 2 of them for maybe non-gaming purposes as cheap Quadros or something, but otherwise it's just pissing money away for minimal gaming gains. I see no logic in buying one, let alone two of them for gaming at their exorbitant price over the 3080.

 

EDIT:

On 9/19/2020 at 3:44 PM, Recon801 said:
Comparison at 60series release in 2026/2027:
A) 3090 now, with sli upgrade: performance 1.9 with 24gb vram - -Total Cost: $1,900 (Better performance per dollar, more or equal amount of vram)
B) 3080 now, with 4080or5080 upgrade, and then 6080 upgrade: performance 1.95 with 20/24gb vram - -Total Cost: $2,100-2,200

  

Considering in gaming, leaks suggest it is not much better than 3080, I don't see it carrying you any further than a 3080 would. Plus there will be other consequences for the minimal increase in performance in power draw and those over time costs shouldn't be ignored either in my opinion. But that is just my opinion.

 

If vRAM is the main concern, which I admit would be for me as well at 4k a few years from now, I think a potential 20GB 3080 makes more sense for gaming over the 3090. But that also depends on how much more a 20GB 3080 would be.


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DCS VR. 

 

I need more that 10Gb

 

I also need GSync, RTX and DLSS.

 

goddammit.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
39 minutes ago, Sir Beregond said:

SLI support will only continue to be deprecated over time so should not be seen as any long-term feature for gaming in your logic in my opinion. It is knocking on death's doors.

 

A lot of your post clearly indicates you are making assumptions.

 

It essentially boils down to this: Do you want to spend 114% more money over the 3080 for maybe at best 10% more performance and 24GB GDDR6X? The memory alone won't carry you to the 60-series if we figure generational cycles are 2 years now. That's 6 years. The 3090 will have other more basic performance issues before the vRAM is saturated in my opinion.

 

It's a poor value and really the only logic I can see is NVLink 2 of them for maybe non-gaming purposes as cheap Quadros or something, but otherwise it's just pissing money away for minimal gaming gains. I see no logic in buying one, let alone two of them for gaming at their exorbitant price over the 3080.

 

EDIT:

  

Considering in gaming, leaks suggest it is not much better than 3080, I don't see it carrying you any further than a 3080 would. Plus there will be other consequences for the minimal increase in performance in power draw and those over time costs shouldn't be ignored either in my opinion. But that is just my opinion.

 

If vRAM is the main concern, which I admit would be for me as well at 4k a few years from now, I think a potential 20GB 3080 makes more sense for gaming over the 3090. But that also depends on how much more a 20GB 3080 would be.

My only concern with the 3080 is the vram. 10gb simply isn't enough for 4k, especially when you start introducing mods. Nvidia also restricted its bandwidth to choke performance. 

 

For the moment I'm going to wait for AMD to show their hand, and for Nvidia to respond. There's no availability to upgrade right now anyway.

 

Regarding the 3090 performance over the 3080, we already have benchmarks that show a 15-21% gain over the 3080 in games and synthetics at 4k. Only that initial chinese leak showed a 10% gain.

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1 hour ago, Recon801 said:

I'm not formulating numbers out of thin air, you are welcome to watch any video online comparing sli performance against other generations, I have already posted examples in this thread. What graphics card do you have?

 

I know from my own testing, and others that sli 980ti offers equal performance to a 2080ti.

I know from my own testing and others that sli 1080ti offers equal performance to a 3080.

Or, we could go with reviews. People that have experience testing hardware. My numbers provided below are based on 1440p performance.

 

1080Ti SLI

  • Didn't work, or had severe issues in almost half the titles tested.
  • Other titles saw an average of a 50% increase. Some were significantly lower.
  • Of the 25 titles tested, only 2 showed greater than 60% scaling, and one was a synthetic benchmark.

https://babeltechreviews.com/gtx-1080-ti-sli-performance-25-games/3/

 

1080Ti vs 3080

  • Most titles see a 70% - 100% increase over the 1080Ti. Since SLI only gives you an average performance increase of 50%, no, 1080Ti SLI does not offer equal performance to the 3080...and that's when SLI is working well. That's ignoring the roughly 50% of titles it doesn't work in or has issues with.

https://babeltechreviews.com/rtx-3080-arrives-ampere-performance-revealed-35-games-benchmarked/4/

 

So, is SLI an improvement? Sure, if it works. But it's nowhere near what you claim.


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There are a lot of rumours of a 20gb 3080 coming out in the coming months, you might want to wait and see if they pan out


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10 minutes ago, Radioactive Snowman said:

There are a lot of rumours of a 20gb 3080 coming out in the coming months, you might want to wait and see if they pan out

Rumors are also that it'll be another year before they release.


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1 hour ago, Recon801 said:

My only concern with the 3080 is the vram. 10gb simply isn't enough for 4k, especially when you start introducing mods. Nvidia also restricted its bandwidth to choke performance. 

This is the common fear that is being thrown around the forums (right in line with "but will I be bottlenecked at PCIE 3.0?!") and the answer is the same...this is incorrect

 

I play everything at 4k, some games with mods.  Have never hit max VRAM (11 gb).  Have not come close yet.   I played a couple games with mods (witcher, skyrim), I play 4k Ultra, triple buffering when it allows me to, I have seriously never come above 10gb.  

 

If it was a thing, there would have been multiple arguments put forth that the Titan RTX might have had some value compared to the 2080ti being that it had 2x VRAM, and maybe that would make it the 4k card...but it turns out they perform almost identically at 4k...because 4k does not require all the VRAM and 11 is plenty.  We would have seen a significant difference if VRAM was an issue here.

 

4k does not require 20+ gb VRAM, please put this myth to rest.  


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