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Recon801

I'm buying a 3090, and this is my logic

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Posted · Original PosterOP
I'm planning on buying a 3090, I'll explain. If you think I'm making a poor move here please let me know. I am obviously making some assumptions, please recognize that I have been in the tech space for many years and are making these assumptions based on what I have seen in the past. I do not shy from criticism, so please let me know if you think I've missed something.
 
I currently have sli 980ti, overclocked to 1400mhz (40% OC). While many people claim that "sli is dead" my experience is quite the opposite. Essentially every major game release supports sli. On average I get 60-70% scaling, but I do get 95-100% scaling on some games such as Ark Survival Evolved. While some titles don't support sli, my experience is those are games that are so basic that you wouldn't need the extra performance anyway. For reference, my sli 980ti slightly outperform a single 2080ti.
 
Now that I've skipped the 10 and 20 series, I am ready to upgrade. I would like to purchase a graphics setup that will last me until the theoretical 50 series at a minimum, but really the 60 series. While the 3080 is a good purchase, I would argue that it's actually a mistake in the long run. In the last 2 years, games have begun to dramatically increase their demand for vram. It is quite common that games use 6-9gb. In 2 years when the 40 series drops the 3080 will probably still keep up, but by the 50 series you will be in need of an upgrade. (i assume most enthusiast are no longer using 1080p, if you are, please do not buy a 3090)
 
Performance:
If 3080= 1 point of performance, we'll say a 3090 is 1.15 (I'm expecting 15%, the 10% leak is questionable at best)
At assumed 65% sli scaling, a 2nd 3090 yields total performance of 1.15+0.75 = 1.9 with 24gb of vram
 
A typical gpu generation yields a performance improvement of 25%. (The 30 series appears to be higher yes, but the 20 series was also lower.)
3080=1.0 performance, 4080=1.25 performance, 5080=1.56, 6080=1.95 performance (with each generation yielding 25% improvement upon the previous)
 
Video Memory: (I make assumptions here based on past product releases)
gtx780=3gb vram, gtx980=4gb vram, gtx1080=8gb vram, rtx2080=8gb vram, rtx3080=10gb vram, rtx4080=16gb vram, rtx5080=16/18gb vram, rtx6080=20/24gb vram
 
Price: (I make assumptions, given that most cards are AIBs selling at $100-200 above msrp already I think these are within reason.)
gtx780=$650, gtx980=$550, gtx1080=$600, rtx2080FE=$700, rtx3080=$700, rtx4080=$700, rtx5080=$800, rtx6080=$800
 
Comparison at 50series release in 2024/2025:
A) 3090 now, with sli upgrade: performance 1.9 with 24gb vram - -Total Cost: $1,900 (Better performance per dollar, still more vram)
B) 3080 now, with 5080 upgrade: performance 1.56 with 16-18gb vram - -Total Cost: $1,500
 
Comparison at 60series release in 2026/2027:
A) 3090 now, with sli upgrade: performance 1.9 with 24gb vram - -Total Cost: $1,900 (Better performance per dollar, more or equal amount of vram)
B) 3080 now, with 4080or5080 upgrade, and then 6080 upgrade: performance 1.95 with 20/24gb vram - -Total Cost: $2,100-2,200
----A 3080 stands no chance of lasting until the 60series on its own. A single of my 980ti certainly couldn't have lasted this long. I game at 2k, and will likely upgrade to 4k at some point in the next couple of years. sli 3090s could last until 2026, a 3080 could not, and you would need to upgrade in between. This is why Nvidia took sli away on the 3080 and limited the vram to 10gb. They know you will have to upgrade, rather than buying another of the same cards and simply sli when you need a bump in performance.
 
Anyway these are my thoughts. A mouthful to be sure. Thanks for reading.
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I would not buy a 3090, let alone a 2nd one for SLI. SLI is Dead, and has been for years. Most devs will not bother with it at this point.

 

If you are using a 980ti still, you dont need a 3090. Just get the 3080 or wait for the 3080S/ti. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Recon801 said:

If you think I'm making a poor move here please let me know.

only issue with your logic is its 100% geared to you

the majority of earth is gaming on gtx 1060's and is fine with that. Meaning the majority of people do not see any value in paying more for a product that's top of the line when they can pay less than half and simply run it forever regardless of what other peoples standards are.

it'll be the equivalent of people buying the midrange 3000 series card now , and running them for 4 to 5 years and it being good enough.

so if you wanna buy a 3090 go for it , aint nobody here gonna stop you

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What monitor do you have?

SLI is dead because as of January 2021, Nvidia will no longer be making SLI profiles. 


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Posted · Original PosterOP
2 minutes ago, Shimejii said:

I would not buy a 3090, let alone a 2nd one for SLI. SLI is Dead, and has been for years. Most devs will not bother with it at this point.

 

If you are using a 980ti still, you dont need a 3090. Just get the 3080 or wait for the 3080S/ti. 

 

 

SLI isn't dead though. I keep hearing people repeat this line, but has someone who uses SLI I can tell you that basically every game still supports SLI, excluding 2D side scrollers.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
Just now, MadPistol said:

What monitor do you have?

SLI is dead because as of January 2021, Nvidia will no longer be making SLI profiles. 

I have an Acer Predator. Its 2k, 144hz, Gsync

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You're better off getting the 3080, and then the 5080, then upgrade again for the 7 series. You'll have spent the same, but won't be behind.

 

Are you sure the games are actually using the VRAM? It's not uncommon to see the VRAM full, but you have no way of knowing if it's being accessed or not. Gamer's Nexus touches on this in one of his more recent videos. Nvidia does pretty extensive testing to see how much memory games actually need. It's not like they're just out there giving the GPUs random amounts of memory.

 

I have no idea where you're coming to the conclusion that 2 3090s will only cost you $1,900. Your math is horribly off there.

You also have no idea how much memory future cards will have, so even putting suggestions for products that are 2 to 4 years out is ridiculous.

You also completely ignore the many, many leaks already pointing to a 3080 with 20GB of VRAM.

 

Your rationale is highly flawed, and is based on nothing but conjecture.

All of that said. It's your money, spend it the way you want.

 

Just now, Recon801 said:

SLI isn't dead though. I keep hearing people repeat this line, but has someone who uses SLI I can tell you that basically every game still supports SLI, excluding 2D side scrollers.

You are the only person I've ever heard say that.


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17 minutes ago, Recon801 said:

) 3090 now, with sli upgrade: performance 1.9 with 24gb vram - -Total Cost: $1,900

Where are you getting $1900 from? They will cost $1500 EACH. That means $3000 without tax assuming you get a founders edition card. That’s also not including the nvlink bridge you need which is around $100. So assuming the sales tax is 6%, you are looking at over $3200, not 1900.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
2 minutes ago, dizmo said:

You're better off getting the 3080, and then the 5080, then upgrade again for the 7 series. You'll have spent the same, but won't be behind.

 

Are you sure the games are actually using the VRAM? It's not uncommon to see the VRAM full, but you have no way of knowing if it's being accessed or not. Gamer's Nexus touches on this in one of his more recent videos. Nvidia does pretty extensive testing to see how much memory games actually need. It's not like they're just out there giving the GPUs random amounts of memory.

 

I have no idea where you're coming to the conclusion that 2 3090s will only cost you $1,900. Your math is horribly off there.

You also have no idea how much memory future cards will have, so even putting suggestions for products that are 2 to 4 years out is ridiculous.

You also completely ignore the many, many leaks already pointing to a 3080 with 20GB of VRAM.

 

Your rationale is highly flawed, and is based on nothing but conjecture.

All of that said. It's your money, spend it the way you want.

 

You are the only person I've ever heard say that.

Regarding the price, I'm assuming a purchase of a 3090 at launch for $1,500, and then the purchase of a used one at the 50 series launch for a boost in performace. Graphics cards typically sell for about 25% value after the 2nd launch. For example, a Pascal Titan X msrp was $1,200, but now that the 30 series is releasing you can purchase one for $290-350 used.

 

While I do make projections, I believe they are very realistic given past launches and interations from Nvidia. The "leak" regarding a 20gb 3080 is from a single unreliable source, and several people have simply repeated it. It doesn't make sense for Nvidia to release a 20gb 3080 as it would make the 3090 obsolete immediately.

 

Regarding SLI, do you run SLI. Because I always have, and I'm telling you all the major games launches do support it. Call of Duty, Battlefield, Ark, Mass Effect, Fallout, Anthem, Red Dead. I would in fact be interested if you could find any major release that doesn't support sli. I'm sure there's one out there, but the notion that "SLI is dead" is simply not true. Excellent scaling to, I'd say I average about 60-70% like I say previously, but I get 100% in several titles as well.

 

 

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Posted · Original PosterOP
13 minutes ago, Recon801 said:

I have an Acer Predator. Its 2k, 144hz, Gsync

Game developers set their own sli profiles now, Nvidia has just been doing it as well. Since there isn't a need anymore Nvidia is stopping. Sli isn't stopping.

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Even if we concede and accept your massive assumptions to be true (which they are not), you're still leaving out the fact that you are using a flawed calculation for your price-to-performance calculation. You are comparing 2020 dollars to 2025 dollars, and forgetting that a 3080 will still have resale value in five years.

 

In terms of 2025 dollars, you would be spending over $2,000 for the 3090 option, and under $1,300 for the 3080/5080 option, so there goes your price-to-performance justification.

 

But, as it's already been said already, it's your money. Spend it however you like.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, badreg said:

Even if we concede and accept your massive assumptions to be true (which they are not), you're still leaving out the fact that you are using a flawed calculation for your price-to-performance calculation. You are comparing 2020 dollars to 2025 dollars, and forgetting that a 3080 will still have resale value in five years.

 

In terms of 2025 dollars, you would be spending over $2,000 for the 3090 option, and under $1,300 for the 3080/5080 option, so there goes your price-to-performance justification.

 

But, as it's already been said already, it's your money. Spend it however you like.

hmmm. That is true, I didn't factor in reselling the 3080 with a subsequent upgrade. Which would help to offset cost.

 

Out of curiosity, which assumptions do you take issue with?

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I could buy a 3090, but I probably won't out of principal. The 3080 could easily have been a 384 bit 12GB card, but as I made a post about yesterday on this topic, Nvidia kneecapped what the 3080 could have been to have their cake and eat it too. No doubt there will be a 20GB 3080 announce within the next month or so, at least by the time AMD announces Big Navi with It's 16GB of Ram. Or, Nvidia may decide to launch a 3080 ti with 12GB of Vram and a 384 bit bus. It's still up in the air.

 

Nvidia are masters of marketing and PR, and they know that someone like myself will see the 3090 as overpriced, but also see the 3080 as a castrated 4K card. There's been a few people parroting a line from youtube about VRam allocation vs usage, but that is an old argument from the gtx970 3.5GB days that was as true then as it is now. Bandwidth will only help so much when a game requires more dedicated graphic memory than your card offers. I play a few games where this is the case at 4K with 8GB of Vram. It's not fun. 

 

But Nvidia probably know that someone like myself will have decided to wait for AMD and see what they have to offer, and that's when Nvidia will most likely strike with a 20GB variant of the 3080. I welcome them doing so as I am fairly brand agnostic. As a consumer I want companies to work for my money, and I refuse to be whipped into accepting what's been offered in the 3080 10GB model. I'm looking forward to AMD and Nvidia fighting over my money in October and November. I want AMD to have something so Nvidia are forced to sell me something with a little value attached. That never happened with the 2080 or 1080 thanks to AMD's lack of competition.


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59 minutes ago, Recon801 said:

For reference, my sli 980ti slightly outperform a single 2080ti.

Depends on the overclock which won't be the same for everyone. At stock settings on SLI 980 TI vs 2080 TI at 1440p the 2080 TI wins out but only slightly. 

 

 

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There is a lot to read here, but is anyone else not bothered by the only 10% increase in performance from the 3080 to the 3090 yet there is a 100% increase in price?  


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51 minutes ago, Recon801 said:

Graphics cards typically sell for about 25% value after the 2nd launch

people selling their 1080tis for 350-400 like 🙃

 

sure the prosumer cards like the titan lose value more than the mainstream cards, but not that much. titan x pascals still go for ~600 bucks.

 

10 minutes ago, RAM555789 said:

Depends on the overclock which won't be the same for everyone. At stock settings on SLI 980 TI vs 2080 TI at 1440p the 2080 TI wins out but only slightly. 

 

snip

recall that the stock 980ti was extremely underclocked, maxwell was basically legendary for overclocks. 30% over stock was basically a given, well binned AIB models like mine end up over 1500mhz which is 50% over stock. overclocks in sli are usually less stable than single card overclocks but 40% across both cards is feasible with some above-average bins

 

7 minutes ago, nick name said:

There is a lot to read here, but is anyone else not bothered by the only 10% increase in performance from the 3080 to the 3090 yet there is a 100% increase in price?  

titan rtx was similarly priced compared to the 2080ti for even less of a performance boost; in some cases the 2080ti was faster, especially in games. theyre gutted workstation cards for prosumers, a titan is still way cheaper than a comparable quadro, but doesnt get professional driver support and such which doesnt matter for some people.


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those assumptions... many flaws, much optimism.

 

1. You miss out new features with SLI old cards in the future. 1080Ti is competitve in 2-way SLI compared to 3080 only when using rasterization. In raytracing scenarios, 2-way 1080Ti is miles behind. Also hardware encoder and decoder for videos in GPUs are updated over time to support new encoding methods, some high res/frame rate videos in the future may have to be decoded by the CPU which could be a problem

 

2. About VRAM use, current games have a tendency to ask for (i.e. allocate) a ton of VRAM dedicated to itself without actually using nearly as much. I have checked this with HWinfo64 with my GTX 1070 8GB card, some games (like FFXV and TC's Ghost Recon Wildlands) can allocate 6GB after a bit of gameplay but D3D dedicated memory (i.e. what the graphics API is actually using) is only at 4GB (1080p btw). If your gut feeling is that 10G on the 3080 is not enough, wait for the 20G version (since 16Gb GDDR6X is rumoured to come soon and the fact that Nvidia could be holding back to prepare for AMD's new stuff)

 

3. Performance improvement over generation is not as clear cut as you made it seem. For example DX11 v.s. DX12 and Vulkan in games for 10 series and 20 series. In most games, this switch on 10 series causes performance degradation but on 20 series, it's more likely to improve performance than worsen it. Even if your assumption on performance gain is correct, a 6080 could be 2.5x faster than a 3080 on new APIs that become popular at that time.

 

4. SLI''s use in the future. To those looking in the future like you do, it's impossible to miss how multi-die approach will eventually take over in GPUs since we are reaching the limit of smaller process nodes. This future is coming, looking at how development of smaller process nodes slow down compared to 10-20 years ago and what AMD Ryzen bought to the CPU market. After that change, the size of a GPU can grow much faster because it's no longer exponentially more expensive to make a larger chip. At that point optimization for multiple cards are far less likely to be done as focus goes to managing multiple GPU dies in one package (which are treated differently on software).

 

10 minutes ago, nick name said:

There is a lot to read here, but is anyone else not bothered by the only 10% increase in performance from the 3080 to the 3090 yet there is a 100% increase in price?  

3090 is a Titan that AIBs can customize, I'm sure sb has said that before


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But they didn't call it a Titan.  They called it a 3090.  


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Posted · Original PosterOP

I supposed whether the 3090 is actually a Titan will come down to if it gets the pro drivers, if not then it's a gaming card.

 

I think several good points were raised here, so thank you all for that. I'm by no means an Nvidia fanboy, so I will definitely wait to see what AMD offers, and how Nvidia then responds. I feel that a 20gb 3080 is still unlikely, as it would kill the 3090, but even if one does show itself, it certainly won't be at at $699 price point.

 

Best case, AMD beats the 3080 and has more vram, causing Nvidia to drop price, or release a ti/super option to compete. That being said AMD hasn't beat Nvidia for the top seat in a very long time, and despite their recent improvements on the cpu side they still aren't beating intel either.

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i dont get your logic.

you want a system that will last 4 or 5 years or whatever and therefore you are willing to pay more.

why not... buy a 3080 and upgrade again 2 years? youll be paying essentially half. it will last you easily until the 4000 series comes out. upgrading every 2 years is the same cost as upgrading every 4 years and buying the most expensive card. it is also better because you have no idea whatsoever how the 4080 will be like. it could potentially have a insane jump in performance and if that happens your 3090 will become trash and unable to run at the same performance as them.

also, if you need to make a post like this to get people's opinion then the 3090 is not for you. the 3090 is for people who ever have a real need for work or people who wouldnt even bother RMAing it if it broke cause they just really dont care about the money. just stick to 2k and get a 3080. games dont become magic at 4k and ultimately they are JUST games. it is very likely that the 4080 card will be able to run 4k at high fps and 8k becomes the new luxury resolution in 2 years.

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3 hours ago, nick name said:

But they didn't call it a Titan.  They called it a 3090.  

they called a single GPU card a 3090 too. They can call it whatever they want.


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1. It's not JUST the cost of the card, it's the cost of the card PLUS interest. If your capital cost is 5%, then the extra $800 at 5% per year means $40 worth of extra costs. Over 5 years this "upgrade" will cost an extra $1000 net of capital costs relative to the $700 3080. 

2. If you need extra vRAM, sell the 3080 and buy a new card. You'll still be money ahead and you'll have a higher average performance over the same period.

3. If you have enough cash (think 400k a year income, no kids, etc.) that it really doesn't matter then just get it. YOLO! If you're in this category, arbitrary 5ish year component lifespan targets wouldn't be a thing. 

 

5 hours ago, Recon801 said:

SLI isn't dead though. I keep hearing people repeat this line, but has someone who uses SLI I can tell you that basically every game still supports SLI, excluding 2D side scrollers.

 


nVidia is also making SLI something that developers have to go out of their way to support. No more SLI driver profiles.
https://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5082


R9 3900x; 64GB RAM | RTX 2080 | 1.5TB Optane P4800x

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5 hours ago, dizmo said:

I have no idea where you're coming to the conclusion that 2 3090s will only cost you $1,900. Your math is horribly off there.

"The more you buy, the more you save" - Jenn boi

 

4 hours ago, Recon801 said:

Graphics cards typically sell for about 25% value after the 2nd launch.

that's probably the extreme high end where value drops like flies when newer cheaper card comes out (look at 2080Ti), how about lower end cards?

value is based on performance most of the time, so the 3080 will likely be about 10-20% lower pricing than 3090. while MSRP is like 100% difference.

 

have you considered using a 3080 then selling it and buying a 50 series when it launch? less hassle with SLI + get future features


Things I need help with: *new* What can Facebook do to me? Privacy Inquiries

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I hate Intel's pricing, Ryzen's weird quirks, Nvidia's pricing, and Radeon GPUs in general

 

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Products I like:

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Sony Xperia Z1 / Z2 / 10 ii, Asus Strix 970 / 1070, Samsung SSD, WD HDD, Corsair PSUs (AX, RM, CX(grey)), GeForce GPU, NZXT N450/S340, be quiet! Coolers, G.Skill Trident RAM, Logitech M525, Logitech G440, Razer Deathadder Elite

 

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Posted · Original PosterOP
58 minutes ago, comander said:

Yes, there is a physical SLI bridge on the 3090......

 

Honestly, the thing that has shocked me more than anything on this thread is the massive lack of knowledge regarding SLI. I feel like most of you don't use SLI, but heard some youtuber tell you SLI is dead and you just believed them. SLI is ABSOLUTELY alive and well, despite Nvidia trying to kill it so you can't use older gen cards for longer. 3 and 4 way SLI, yeah pretty dead, but 2 way, damn totally worth it. I literally play games right now, today in 2020, and get 100% scaling. If I can go from 40fps to 80fps that is not dead. Not even close.

 

If you have a 1080ti right now, you shouldn't buy a 3080, you should buy another 1080ti. You will get the exact same performance in game, and will actually have more vram. Who ever cares about ray tracing, its still barely supported by any games. You want to talk about dead, ray tracing is dead, not SLI. And in the tiny handful of games that do support it, it kills your fps so much that you wont use it.

 

Here's a video just to prove that its the same performance

 

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