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Nanook

Why do IHS still Exist?

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Why do CPU manufacturers still use integrated heat spreaders? GPU manufacturers have moved beyond that for long time now which allows for the coolers to make direct contact with the die. Only one single thermal bridge exists for which thermal paste is used.

 

Why can't CPU manufacturers start moving in that direction?

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2 minutes ago, Nanook said:

Why can't CPU manufacturers start moving in that direction?

Moving back to that direction you mean of course ;)

Direct die cooling was basically the norm for years. Cracked dies from people installing their cooler wrong probably made Intel/AMD switch to an IHS instead.


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Because a 10900K needs the extra surface area to dissipate the 300w at 5ghz heat it easily produces. :)

 

 


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Because slightly worse temps is better than a cracked die. in my opinion at least.

The IHS is there to prevent the die from cracking when you want to use a cooler for the cpu. 


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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Because a 10900K needs the extra surface area to dissipate the 300w at 5ghz heat it easily produces. :)

 

 

But can't that extra surface area just be the bottom of the cooler instead?

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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, TofuHaroto said:

Because slightly worse temps is better than a cracked die. in my opinion at least.

The IHS is there to prevent the die from cracking when you want to use a cooler for the cpu. 

But bare CPU dies are already common place in the laptop industry, and we don't hear much about cracked dies there?

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1 minute ago, Nanook said:

But can't that extra surface area just be the bottom of the cooler instead?

Well the IHS plates are ALL soldered today (except like Ryzen Athlons) 

So you can consider the IHS plate an extension of the SOI in this respect being a permanent fixture. (generally not to be removed)


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Posted · Original PosterOP
3 minutes ago, TotallyNotGigabit said:

IHS may hinder thermal performance but IHS also act as a shield to prevent the die being chipped when you install your heatsink. CPU heatsinks tend to be pretty big and a little heavy.

GPU's have big heavy coolers and they don't crack often.

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1 hour ago, Nanook said:

and we don't hear much about cracked dies there?

the laptop is manufactured and assembled in a factory, also cooler's weight depends, some people have lighter coolers than others, and if a user put more pressure on the die than it can handle, it will crack, that would be a user error, and having slightly worse temps is better than a cracked die. 


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2 minutes ago, Nanook said:

But bare CPU dies are already common place in the laptop industry, and we don't hear much about cracked dies there?

You're not mounting 1 kg coolers on your laptop either :P


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Posted · Original PosterOP
2 minutes ago, tikker said:

You're not mounting 1 kg coolers on your laptop either :P

We do that on bare GPU dies on our desktops all the time and no one bats an eye. Look at the heatsinks on the new RTX 3000 series, they are huge.

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5 minutes ago, Nanook said:

We do that on bare GPU dies on our desktops all the time and no one bats an eye. Look at the heatsinks on the new RTX 3000 series, they are huge.

The difference there is the same as @TofuHaroto mentions. You don't buy a GPU and install a cooler yourself. Just like the laptops, the graphics cards are assembeled for you in the factory and you get the unit as a whole. For CPUs there's too many things that can go wrong during cooler installation that, as said, can crack the die. Too much pressure, unequal pressure, skewed mounting, wrong mounting. One mistake and it can break.


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4 minutes ago, Nanook said:

We do that on bare GPU dies on our desktops all the time and no one bats an eye. Look at the heatsinks on the new RTX 3000 series, they are huge.

No one does that by bare hand. That's the difference. Just like with laptops, the GPU is assembled by a machine in a factory.


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if most or all CPU coolers were factory mounted, we would probably have direct die cooling as the default. But with an IHS comes a massive layer of product safety.


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You would actually be moving backwards. Many years ago desktop processors use to not come with an IHS. One of the many reasons one was intraduced was because the bare silicon die is fragile. If you aren't careful in how you mount the cooler you could crack the die immediately killing the CPU with zero hope of recovery. The IHS made CPU's much more robust.

 

GPU's on the other hand aren't purpose built for the consumer to dismantle and tinker with. When you do so it's at your own risk like with delidding a CPU. It often breaks warranties to do so.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, Eigenvektor said:

No one does that by bare hand. That's the difference. Just like with laptops, the GPU is assembled by a machine in a factory.

Well damn. Now I just don't have footing to argue on. Still I think they should at least have an option to buy without an IHS for those comfortable enough.

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I think that would be less efficient for modern air coolers especially, since they often use direct heatpipes at the bottom. With direct die, only 1-2 heatpipes would interact with the CPU, rendering the others unnecessary. 


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Posted · Original PosterOP
3 minutes ago, Windows7ge said:

You would actually be moving backwards. Many years ago desktop processors use to not come with an IHS. One of the many reasons one was intraduced was because the bare silicon die is fragile. If you aren't careful in how you mount the cooler you could crack the die immediately killing the CPU with zero hope of recovery. The IHS made CPU's much more robust.

 

GPU's on the other hand aren't purpose built for the consumer to dismantle and tinker with. When you do so it's at your own risk like with delidding a CPU. It often breaks warranties to do so.

But people swap out stock GPU coolers for water blocks all the time. 

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2 minutes ago, Nanook said:

But people swap out stock GPU coolers for water blocks all the time. 

Most modern GPUs have an IHS plate...


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less chance for user to screw up

 

my AMD chips of days gone never had em


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On modern processors like Ryzen and Threadripper and some Intel processors, the IHS is soldered using a special alloy to the silicon dies, so the heat transfer is actually very good.

The problem is the uneven surface of the metal to which the cooler is applied, not the contact between the dies and the IHS.  Luckily nothing stops you from getting some sandpaper to sand down the surface of the ihs to increase the flatness.

 

It's better to use an IHS because some processors are made from multiple silicon dies, and if you apply the cooler the wrong way, a die could crack or chip and make the cpu unusable.

In the past, we had processors without IHS, think socket A processors from AMD, which had shims (spacers) to prevent the heatsink from being screwed too tight and break the chip but even with those precautions, there were still quite a lot of damaged processors killed.

 

Also, modern coolers are MUCH heavier and they're tighten harder, so there's increased risk of damaging a cpu die by tightening too hard a cpu cooler.

 

example of cpus without ihs below  ...  a barton ... keep in mind that barton die was 80-84 mm2 ... in comparison the dies that form a Ryzen 5 die add up to ~200mmand on Ryzen 9, it adds up to ~275mm2  ... so quite bigger dies, increased risk of damage, more difficult to cool due to more power consumptio

 

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Just now, Mister Woof said:

less chance for user to screw up

 

my AMD chips of days gone never had em

Socket A 462 desktop. 754 and up all had IHS plates.

 

I took them all off. Still do XD


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1 minute ago, Nanook said:

But people swap out stock GPU coolers for water blocks all the time. 

Yes. And it usually (not always, but usually) voids your warranty with the manufacturer. They don't build the card so you can just dismantle it. If they had the intent for you to just immediately throw your own cooler on it they'd sell you the card without a cooler just as high-end processors don't come with coolers as they expect you to supply your own. The manufacturer isn't going to side with you if you crack the GPU die. The creation/inclusion of an IHS on CPUs for a intended use case of installing it yourself makes them more robust and less prone to breaking during installation.


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11 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Socket A 462 desktop. 754 and up all had IHS plates.

 

I took them all off. Still do XD

amd 2400xp

 

soyo dragon motherboard, i think


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