Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
The Blue Cryptid

A CPU for the 3070/80

Recommended Posts

Posted · Original PosterOP

I'm planning a new build centered around the 3070 or 3080 RTX cards coming out. My current plan is a Ryzen 7 3700X, but I'm starting to doubt if it'll be enough horsepower to not bottleneck the GPU too much.


♪♫ "2-to the-1-to the-1-to the-3 I like good OC and RGB. Configure so much, you wouldn't believe. And I get more blue screen than a Walmart PC" ♪♫

✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦

"Do you think that we as humans do bad things, because we know that in the end nothing matters? Do we as humans only act good, because we grasp onto anything that will make it seem meaningful? Well, all I know is that we know nothing. And, If there is a god, I have no doubts that he too ponders and fears our meaningless existence" -Sportacus from LazyTown

✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦

Link to post
Share on other sites

Obviously a 10900k would be best, but the 10700k will be almost as good. That is what I have. I couldn't find a 10900k in stock. Even with PCIE 3.0, these chips are faster than anything AMD has for gaming.

Link to post
Share on other sites

3700x or the 10700k is good

Though, what resolution and games? And if you can, wait for zen3 launch


Things I need help with: *new* What can Facebook do to me? Privacy Inquiries

Spoiler

 

 

I hate Intel's pricing, Ryzen's weird quirks, Nvidia's pricing, and Radeon GPUs in general

 

Spoiler

 

Products I like:

Spoiler

Sony Xperia Z1 / Z2 / 10 ii, Asus Strix 970 / 1070, Samsung SSD, WD HDD, Corsair PSUs (AX, RM, CX(grey)), GeForce GPU, NZXT N450/S340, be quiet! Coolers, G.Skill Trident RAM, Logitech M525, Logitech G440, Razer Deathadder Elite

 

Products I hate:

Spoiler

Xperia Z3, XiaoMi 5c, Radeon GPUs, Razer Audio Products, any bloatwares

 

Companies I absolutely adore: (and hope it stays that way)

Spoiler

be quiet! - sent me AM4 mounting for my DRP3 even though it's way past the timeframe stated, no questions asked

Corsair - very good RMA experience, absolutely recommend

 

Companies I hate:

Spoiler

Nvidia, Intel, Apple, TMT (Thundermatch, a retailer)

 

Personal Blacklisted Companies:

Spoiler

Acer monitors, Gigabyte, Seagate HDD, Kingston SSD, Razer (except their mouse), XiaoMi Phones

 

Remember, just because I had good/bad experiences with these companies/product, doesn't mean you will have similar experiences too. I would still recommend these products if they made sense for your needs, but I'll add a disclaimer of my experience if it's relevant. Feel free to DM me asking why they are where they are.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The  3700X is a pretty reasonable cpu for those graphics cards, what games and refresh rates are you targeting


I WILL find your ITX build thread, and I WILL recommend the SIlverstone Sugo SG13B

 

Primary PC:

i7 8086k (won) - EVGA Z370 Classified K - G.Kill Trident Z RGB - Force MP500 - Jedi Order Titan Xp - Hyper 212 Black (with RGB Riing flair) - EVGA G2 650W - Black and green theme, Razer branwashed me.

Draws 400 watts under max load, for reference.

 

Linux Proliant ML150 G6:

Dual Xeon X5560 - 24GB ECC DDR3 - GTX 750 TI - old Seagate 1.5TB HDD - Dark moded Ubuntu (and Win7, cuz why not)

 

How many watts do I need? Seasonic Focus threadUserbenchmark (Et al.) is trash explained, PSU misconceptions, protections explainedgroup reg is bad

Link to post
Share on other sites

The 3700x at higher resolutions should be a nice pair with the 3080/70, but over all it should be fine for the most part. 

If your workload is gaming, you can just go with a 10600k which is pretty decent and performs similarly to the 10700k in games because they don't scale up to 8 cores. 

What board do you already have though? And budget?


Fun Fact: The Meshify c is the best case to ever exist.

 

 

Wārudobītā

Spoiler

3100.

B550m TuF plus.

Hyper x rgb 8 gig stick. (MJR or CJR  i still don't know lol).

1650 super.

CX450.

MX500.

NX500.

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Original PosterOP
16 hours ago, Fasauceome said:

The  3700X is a pretty reasonable cpu for those graphics cards, what games and refresh rates are you targeting

I'm hoping to at least get 120Hz at 1440p, and as a less important note getting 4K at 60fps for my tv


♪♫ "2-to the-1-to the-1-to the-3 I like good OC and RGB. Configure so much, you wouldn't believe. And I get more blue screen than a Walmart PC" ♪♫

✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦

"Do you think that we as humans do bad things, because we know that in the end nothing matters? Do we as humans only act good, because we grasp onto anything that will make it seem meaningful? Well, all I know is that we know nothing. And, If there is a god, I have no doubts that he too ponders and fears our meaningless existence" -Sportacus from LazyTown

✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Original PosterOP
13 hours ago, TofuHaroto said:

The 3700x at higher resolutions should be a nice pair with the 3080/70, but over all it should be fine for the most part. 

If your workload is gaming, you can just go with a 10600k which is pretty decent and performs similarly to the 10700k in games because they don't scale up to 8 cores. 

What board do you already have though? And budget?

I'm planning on trying to sell my current rig locally, and then trying to build a computer without adding more than $400-500. So my budget (optimistically) would be around $2,000 max. I'm looking at boards with the B450 X470 and X570 chipset, the one I'm looking at now is the MSI B450M Bazooka Max Wi-Fi Micro ATX 


♪♫ "2-to the-1-to the-1-to the-3 I like good OC and RGB. Configure so much, you wouldn't believe. And I get more blue screen than a Walmart PC" ♪♫

✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦

"Do you think that we as humans do bad things, because we know that in the end nothing matters? Do we as humans only act good, because we grasp onto anything that will make it seem meaningful? Well, all I know is that we know nothing. And, If there is a god, I have no doubts that he too ponders and fears our meaningless existence" -Sportacus from LazyTown

✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, The Blue Cryptid said:

I'm hoping to at least get 120Hz at 1440p, and as a less important note getting 4K at 60fps for my tv

120hz in the majority of titles is pretty feasible for the 3700X


I WILL find your ITX build thread, and I WILL recommend the SIlverstone Sugo SG13B

 

Primary PC:

i7 8086k (won) - EVGA Z370 Classified K - G.Kill Trident Z RGB - Force MP500 - Jedi Order Titan Xp - Hyper 212 Black (with RGB Riing flair) - EVGA G2 650W - Black and green theme, Razer branwashed me.

Draws 400 watts under max load, for reference.

 

Linux Proliant ML150 G6:

Dual Xeon X5560 - 24GB ECC DDR3 - GTX 750 TI - old Seagate 1.5TB HDD - Dark moded Ubuntu (and Win7, cuz why not)

 

How many watts do I need? Seasonic Focus threadUserbenchmark (Et al.) is trash explained, PSU misconceptions, protections explainedgroup reg is bad

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Blue Cryptid said:

would be around $2,000 max

 name some decent boards: 

for b550, the pro vdh, bazooka are some decent budget options, the tomahawk and the aorus pro and the strix f and the mortar are pretty good.

for x570, the tomahawk and the tuf are pretty decent and the aorus elite is as well. 

Don't bother with x470. but as i said..

14 hours ago, TofuHaroto said:

The 3700x at higher resolutions should be a nice pair with the 3080/70, but over all it should be fine for the most part. 

If your workload is gaming, you can just go with a 10600k which is pretty decent and performs similarly to the 10700k in games because they don't scale up to 8 cores. 

^.


Fun Fact: The Meshify c is the best case to ever exist.

 

 

Wārudobītā

Spoiler

3100.

B550m TuF plus.

Hyper x rgb 8 gig stick. (MJR or CJR  i still don't know lol).

1650 super.

CX450.

MX500.

NX500.

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Original PosterOP
22 minutes ago, TofuHaroto said:

 name some decent boards: 

for b550, the pro vdh, bazooka are some decent budget options, the tomahawk and the aorus pro and the strix f and the mortar are pretty good.

for x570, the tomahawk and the tuf are pretty decent and the aorus elite is as well. 

Don't bother with x470. but as i said..

^.

My workload is mixed with both gaming, productivity (heavy in multitasking), and editing software. I was looking at some benchmark tests comparing the 3700X with the 10600K and I think I might go with AMD on this one. I just hope I'll be able to OC it to at least 4GHz


♪♫ "2-to the-1-to the-1-to the-3 I like good OC and RGB. Configure so much, you wouldn't believe. And I get more blue screen than a Walmart PC" ♪♫

✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦

"Do you think that we as humans do bad things, because we know that in the end nothing matters? Do we as humans only act good, because we grasp onto anything that will make it seem meaningful? Well, all I know is that we know nothing. And, If there is a god, I have no doubts that he too ponders and fears our meaningless existence" -Sportacus from LazyTown

✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, The Blue Cryptid said:

My workload is mixed with both gaming, productivity (heavy in multitasking), and editing software

Ah if that's the case and if it's more multi threaded then yea the 3700x should do the job. 

As I said again, at higher resolutions it should be a nice pair and at 1440p the 3700x should be fine with a 3080. 


Fun Fact: The Meshify c is the best case to ever exist.

 

 

Wārudobītā

Spoiler

3100.

B550m TuF plus.

Hyper x rgb 8 gig stick. (MJR or CJR  i still don't know lol).

1650 super.

CX450.

MX500.

NX500.

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Original PosterOP
On 9/18/2020 at 11:00 PM, Moonzy said:

3700x or the 10700k is good

Though, what resolution and games? And if you can, wait for zen3 launch

I'm more afraid of the prices that will come with Zen3. But, if their 7 series 4th gen is in my budget come October, then I'm definitely gonna get a Zen3. And I'd have to make sure the MoBo I get is a 500-series


♪♫ "2-to the-1-to the-1-to the-3 I like good OC and RGB. Configure so much, you wouldn't believe. And I get more blue screen than a Walmart PC" ♪♫

✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦

"Do you think that we as humans do bad things, because we know that in the end nothing matters? Do we as humans only act good, because we grasp onto anything that will make it seem meaningful? Well, all I know is that we know nothing. And, If there is a god, I have no doubts that he too ponders and fears our meaningless existence" -Sportacus from LazyTown

✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, The Blue Cryptid said:

I'm more afraid of the prices that will come with Zen3. But, if their 7 series 4th gen is in my budget come October, then I'm definitely gonna get a Zen3. And I'd have to make sure the MoBo I get is a 500-series

you can still get the 3700x or 10700k if the price of next gen is too expensive

and you can also look for their new mobo, see what new features they might add


Things I need help with: *new* What can Facebook do to me? Privacy Inquiries

Spoiler

 

 

I hate Intel's pricing, Ryzen's weird quirks, Nvidia's pricing, and Radeon GPUs in general

 

Spoiler

 

Products I like:

Spoiler

Sony Xperia Z1 / Z2 / 10 ii, Asus Strix 970 / 1070, Samsung SSD, WD HDD, Corsair PSUs (AX, RM, CX(grey)), GeForce GPU, NZXT N450/S340, be quiet! Coolers, G.Skill Trident RAM, Logitech M525, Logitech G440, Razer Deathadder Elite

 

Products I hate:

Spoiler

Xperia Z3, XiaoMi 5c, Radeon GPUs, Razer Audio Products, any bloatwares

 

Companies I absolutely adore: (and hope it stays that way)

Spoiler

be quiet! - sent me AM4 mounting for my DRP3 even though it's way past the timeframe stated, no questions asked

Corsair - very good RMA experience, absolutely recommend

 

Companies I hate:

Spoiler

Nvidia, Intel, Apple, TMT (Thundermatch, a retailer)

 

Personal Blacklisted Companies:

Spoiler

Acer monitors, Gigabyte, Seagate HDD, Kingston SSD, Razer (except their mouse), XiaoMi Phones

 

Remember, just because I had good/bad experiences with these companies/product, doesn't mean you will have similar experiences too. I would still recommend these products if they made sense for your needs, but I'll add a disclaimer of my experience if it's relevant. Feel free to DM me asking why they are where they are.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

you can still get the 3700x or 10700k if the price of next gen is too expensive

and you can also look for their new mobo, see what new features they might add

What new motherboard? I don't think AM4 socket motherboards will get a new series (such as B650\X670)

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, RaphaNadal said:

What new motherboard? I don't think AM4 socket motherboards will get a new series (such as B650\X670)

-shrug- idk, will know when AMD launches next gen

might have new board, might not have new board

 

i would imagine them making  a new chipset, even if it's just rebadged x570, just to make sure people get boards with the right bios

or else chaos will ensue


Things I need help with: *new* What can Facebook do to me? Privacy Inquiries

Spoiler

 

 

I hate Intel's pricing, Ryzen's weird quirks, Nvidia's pricing, and Radeon GPUs in general

 

Spoiler

 

Products I like:

Spoiler

Sony Xperia Z1 / Z2 / 10 ii, Asus Strix 970 / 1070, Samsung SSD, WD HDD, Corsair PSUs (AX, RM, CX(grey)), GeForce GPU, NZXT N450/S340, be quiet! Coolers, G.Skill Trident RAM, Logitech M525, Logitech G440, Razer Deathadder Elite

 

Products I hate:

Spoiler

Xperia Z3, XiaoMi 5c, Radeon GPUs, Razer Audio Products, any bloatwares

 

Companies I absolutely adore: (and hope it stays that way)

Spoiler

be quiet! - sent me AM4 mounting for my DRP3 even though it's way past the timeframe stated, no questions asked

Corsair - very good RMA experience, absolutely recommend

 

Companies I hate:

Spoiler

Nvidia, Intel, Apple, TMT (Thundermatch, a retailer)

 

Personal Blacklisted Companies:

Spoiler

Acer monitors, Gigabyte, Seagate HDD, Kingston SSD, Razer (except their mouse), XiaoMi Phones

 

Remember, just because I had good/bad experiences with these companies/product, doesn't mean you will have similar experiences too. I would still recommend these products if they made sense for your needs, but I'll add a disclaimer of my experience if it's relevant. Feel free to DM me asking why they are where they are.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Moonzy said:

-shrug- idk, will know when AMD launches next gen

might have new board, might not have new board

 

i would imagine them making  a new chipset, even if it's just rebadged x570, just to make sure people get boards with the right bios

or else chaos will ensue

B550 motherboards are actually plenty capable to power the highest-end Zen 3 parts. They are way overbuilt compared to B450, on average.  

 

Something like a GIgabyte Aorus Pro (if you OC)\Aorus Elite (if you don't OC)\ASRock Steel Legend\ASUS ROG Strix-E\MSI Tomahawk would work amazing, if you have a B350-series AMD chipset or older. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, RaphaNadal said:

B550 motherboards are actually plenty capable to power the highest-end Zen 3 parts. They are way overbuilt compared to B450, on average. 

yea i didnt say the boards arent capable, hardware wise

 

but the bios needs to be updated, and asking people to shop for old chipset board for new chips, where the bios might not be updated is just looking for trouble.

sure they can do the "ryzen 4000 ready" badge, but unless you know to look for it, you'll not know about it.

 

but yea, waiting for the CPU anyways, might as well wait to see if they launch a board, dont fixate on 500 series board only.


Things I need help with: *new* What can Facebook do to me? Privacy Inquiries

Spoiler

 

 

I hate Intel's pricing, Ryzen's weird quirks, Nvidia's pricing, and Radeon GPUs in general

 

Spoiler

 

Products I like:

Spoiler

Sony Xperia Z1 / Z2 / 10 ii, Asus Strix 970 / 1070, Samsung SSD, WD HDD, Corsair PSUs (AX, RM, CX(grey)), GeForce GPU, NZXT N450/S340, be quiet! Coolers, G.Skill Trident RAM, Logitech M525, Logitech G440, Razer Deathadder Elite

 

Products I hate:

Spoiler

Xperia Z3, XiaoMi 5c, Radeon GPUs, Razer Audio Products, any bloatwares

 

Companies I absolutely adore: (and hope it stays that way)

Spoiler

be quiet! - sent me AM4 mounting for my DRP3 even though it's way past the timeframe stated, no questions asked

Corsair - very good RMA experience, absolutely recommend

 

Companies I hate:

Spoiler

Nvidia, Intel, Apple, TMT (Thundermatch, a retailer)

 

Personal Blacklisted Companies:

Spoiler

Acer monitors, Gigabyte, Seagate HDD, Kingston SSD, Razer (except their mouse), XiaoMi Phones

 

Remember, just because I had good/bad experiences with these companies/product, doesn't mean you will have similar experiences too. I would still recommend these products if they made sense for your needs, but I'll add a disclaimer of my experience if it's relevant. Feel free to DM me asking why they are where they are.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Moonzy said:

yea i didnt say the boards arent capable, hardware wise

 

but the bios needs to be updated, and asking people to shop for old chipset board for new chips, where the bios might not be updated is just looking for trouble.

sure they can do the "ryzen 4000 ready" badge, but unless you know to look for it, you'll not know about it.

 

but yea, waiting for the CPU anyways, might as well wait to see if they launch a board, dont fixate on 500 series board only.

It makes little sense to release a 600-series motherboard just for AM4 socket to support Zen 3, and confusing if the same chipset were to support both AM4 (for Zen 3) and AM5 (for Zen3+ and other future CPUs). I'm curious to see what happens.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RaphaNadal said:

B550 motherboards are actually plenty capable to power the highest-end Zen 3 parts. They are way overbuilt compared to B450, on average.  

 

Something like a GIgabyte Aorus Pro (if you OC)\Aorus Elite (if you don't OC)\ASRock Steel Legend\ASUS ROG Strix-E\MSI Tomahawk would work amazing, if you have a B350-series AMD chipset or older. 

Yea, those are solid options. Just have good airflow on the case and you will be fine.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Original PosterOP
On 9/19/2020 at 3:17 PM, Fasauceome said:

120hz in the majority of titles is pretty feasible for the 3700X

Here's a little mock-up for when the 3080 ever becomes available again:

 


♪♫ "2-to the-1-to the-1-to the-3 I like good OC and RGB. Configure so much, you wouldn't believe. And I get more blue screen than a Walmart PC" ♪♫

✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦

"Do you think that we as humans do bad things, because we know that in the end nothing matters? Do we as humans only act good, because we grasp onto anything that will make it seem meaningful? Well, all I know is that we know nothing. And, If there is a god, I have no doubts that he too ponders and fears our meaningless existence" -Sportacus from LazyTown

✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, The Blue Cryptid said:

when the 3080 ever becomes available again:

by that time we might have next gen Ryzen, the announcement is coming at the beginning of october so you should wait and see if you can


I WILL find your ITX build thread, and I WILL recommend the SIlverstone Sugo SG13B

 

Primary PC:

i7 8086k (won) - EVGA Z370 Classified K - G.Kill Trident Z RGB - Force MP500 - Jedi Order Titan Xp - Hyper 212 Black (with RGB Riing flair) - EVGA G2 650W - Black and green theme, Razer branwashed me.

Draws 400 watts under max load, for reference.

 

Linux Proliant ML150 G6:

Dual Xeon X5560 - 24GB ECC DDR3 - GTX 750 TI - old Seagate 1.5TB HDD - Dark moded Ubuntu (and Win7, cuz why not)

 

How many watts do I need? Seasonic Focus threadUserbenchmark (Et al.) is trash explained, PSU misconceptions, protections explainedgroup reg is bad

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Original PosterOP
10 hours ago, Fasauceome said:

by that time we might have next gen Ryzen, the announcement is coming at the beginning of october so you should wait and see if you can

Ive heard about that with the 5700U being leaked in some sort of benchmark. I'm definitely waiting for those puppies :)


♪♫ "2-to the-1-to the-1-to the-3 I like good OC and RGB. Configure so much, you wouldn't believe. And I get more blue screen than a Walmart PC" ♪♫

✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦

"Do you think that we as humans do bad things, because we know that in the end nothing matters? Do we as humans only act good, because we grasp onto anything that will make it seem meaningful? Well, all I know is that we know nothing. And, If there is a god, I have no doubts that he too ponders and fears our meaningless existence" -Sportacus from LazyTown

✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦✦

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×