Apple’s Reckoning Has Come.

[RILEYISMYNAME]

 

Epic Games sued Apple so they could make more money from Fortnite - Apple sued back because THEY wanted more money through the App Store. But is that the whole story? It's clearly not, because we made a whole video about it. This fight is a WAY bigger deal than a simple cash grab.

 

 

 

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[GDRRiley]

notice how they didn't sue sony or microsoft who also charge 30% some very selective choices

[BlueChinchillaEatingDorito]

1 minute ago, GDRRiley said:

notice how they didn't sue sony or microsoft who also charge 30% some very selective choices

Probably because Epic knows very well that most of their user base that spends thousands on V-bucks are children. Children where a smartphone is their preferred gaming platform as they grew up with devices like the iPod touch. We always hear about stories of children spending thousands of their parents' savings on mobile game micro-transactions. It's not something that happens frequently on consoles. 

[MarcoZ]

16 minutes ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

Probably because Epic knows very well that most of their user base that spends thousands on V-bucks are children. Children where a smartphone is their preferred gaming platform as they grew up with devices like the iPod touch. We always hear about stories of children spending thousands of their parents' savings on mobile game micro-transactions. It's not something that happens frequently on consoles. 

I think that it's more of a legal concern. I'm no lawyer, let alone US law, but the EU went down hard several times on Microsoft and Google for pushing their own apps and squashing competition with methods similar to the ones Epic describes in the suit. They would have a clearly winnable case if they equate a smartphone with a computer - unlike with a games console, which the defendants at Sony\Microsoft could just argue is like a DVD player and needs anti-piracy measures to justify its walled garden.

[Drama Lama]

34 minutes ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

It's not something that happens frequently on consoles. 

 

X

 

Doubt 

 

FIFA

[Lord Vile]

32 minutes ago, MarcoZ said:

I think that it's more of a legal concern. I'm no lawyer, let alone US law, but the EU went down hard several times on Microsoft and Google for pushing their own apps and squashing competition with methods similar to the ones Epic describes in the suit. They would have a clearly winnable case if they equate a smartphone with a computer - unlike with a games console, which the defendants at Sony\Microsoft could just argue is like a DVD player and needs anti-piracy measures to justify its walled garden.

Plenty of video and music players on the app store that need anti piracy protection. 

[Keystone Nyan Cat]

That ASUS monitor is really expensive. I understand it's new, is 240hz, and probably has a USB-C hub + killer portable battery, but they also sell the M169B+ at a third of the price that is completely powered by USB so doesn't need to charge, is also 1080p, and is an IPS screen. That tripling on price seems a bit too much.

[Kroon]

2 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

notice how they didn't sue sony or microsoft who also charge 30% some very selective choices

 

Sony has a newly acquired 1.4% stake in Epic and most likely some kind of upcoming cooperation on the PS5 market.  So think it would be bad to sue them.  

[BuckGup]

Knock Knock

Who's There?

Terrible Video Titles

[ernonewman]

2 hours ago, GDRRiley said:

notice how they didn't sue sony or microsoft who also charge 30% some very selective choices

So if I remember correctly, the Microsoft Store, which technically isn't the same as the Xbox store, doesn't charge 30% anymore, by default it's 15% I think and can be as low as 5% in certain circumstances: https://9to5mac.com/2019/03/06/microsoft-store-revenue-share/

 

As for the Xbox Store and Playstation store, I think also Sweeney has said is the reason they didn't go after those is because the console makers normally sells their consoles at a loss with the expectation of making some of that back through the game sales. See the first Update on this article: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/08/as-epic-attacks-apple-and-google-it-ignores-the-same-problems-on-consoles/

[rushboarduk]

30% wasn't the standard of digital products; global recessions have entitled publishers during these periods to increase the cap to safeguard revenue loss.  But it was never supposed to be a permanent rise, which such companies have fervently defended becase, honestly, they don't want to stop charging that much money.

 

Another important problem is how many apps from other developers have their functionality cloned by Apple on a regular basis, appearing months later for launch on the App Store, under the auspices of Apple's "review" (or, rather, programming mining) process. Under law this is considered data theft, thus illegal, though the courts don't penalise Apple for doing so.

[Luscious]

The problem with money is that it's not just a MOTIVATOR, but it is what also drives GREED. When you separate the little guys from the big guys and see the big guys making billions when the little guy is forced to throw away his otherwise perfectly working iPhone SE hardware because some future iOS software update "intentionally slowed it down" (lawsuit on that as well) you begin to see the real picture.

 

You know you are being BULLIED when a software downgrade is prohibited but software updates are forcing you to buy a new device LOL

 

Apple has become a GIANT out of essentially what was a garage outfit. And while that may be a great American success story, in the real world you cannot do that for every dreamer who wants to make their mark. How do you think Apple was able to build their fancy big Apple Park HQ - it was off the backs of developers across the globe and iPhone customers; taking their money over the course of the last decade. And Apple continues to keep it's hand in your wallet.

 

BTW: You don't need to be a "trillion dollar" company to make a great smartphone. Just go back to 2009 - the HTC Touch Pro 2 was KILLING IT with features the iPhone still doesn't have today.

[Fatih19]

I honestly don't really care what Apple and Google charge on their marketplace, it's theirs in the end of the day and I use third-party store on my Android so *shrugs*. However, it's fun to play devil's advocate.

 

"Standard Oil deserves the compensation for its product because of their superior delivery method of using pipeline instead of railways. Not only that it requires huge upfront costs, it also provides safety and security for consumers since it would be harder for their oil to be swapped with a lower quality product by irresponsible people or even the railway company themselves."

 

"Competition is a sin" - John D. Rockefeller

“We define everything that is on the phone,” - Steve Jobs

[danwager11]

My thoughts were that this isn't Fortnite v. Apple as Epic makes it seem, it's very specifically Epic v. Fortnite, mobile gaming is becoming a bigger market and Epic is the creator of the Unreal Engine and Epic game store on PC. I imagine in the near future there will be an eminence amount of profit Epic could be making with a mobile store, fortnite's 30% will seem irrelevant at that point. Fortnite is just a great way to pull the playerbase into it to support it, which as said in the video, is still a good think for the whole market removing the "duopoly." By that time this legal fight will be over and if things go well for the Epic Game Store in the future they will have an a reputation before moving to mobile, and of course Apple is the primary target since it's the most titleworthy company to target.

[kpluck]

In the United States it is perfectly legal to have a monopoly. I only say that because it isn't clear to me that Linus understands that fact. Frankly, I find his take on this situation to be rather simplistic and naive.

 

-kp

[PC BUILD THEORY]

They really deserve so much of compensation Choose your words carefully Linus......

Apple wheels 699$

Apple pro stand 1000$

Apple feet kit 299$

F***k you apple.........you deserve that word only...

Im hoping that oneday prime video comes to apple and says f**k you apple we won't give a cent to you...and Netflix joining the battle...

Then apple is Doomed..

 

[Results45]

Can you please do a similar video on the hardware side of things if Louis Rossman, his allies, and the hardware repair trade consortium he is trying to establish get anywhere with Right to Repair?

 

As much YouTube content as I could find on the issue:

 

You know Louis Rossman is the real deal when his mascot is a black sheep, his nickname is "PPBUS_G3_HOT", and his motto is "I've lived in New York for thirty-two years and I sure know bullshit."

[ahuckphin]

Don't forget that LMG has an actual lawyer employee. Don't forget that LMG has an actual lawyer employee. 

[NathanielB]

My main complaints here are 1. Epic are not trying to go after the PlayStation or Xbox stores which also take a 30% cut, suggesting they aren’t totally concerned about it. And 2. Epic tried to negotiate a lower cut with Apple before the lawsuit. This was a move that would only benefit themselves, and if Apple had agreed to this, then would Epic have still filed legal action against Apple to fight the good fight on behalf of all the smaller developers. I doubt they would. It seems this “morally good” stance they’ve taken is merely a tactic and not something they really wanted. If they could benefit from a 50% Apple tax reduction while almost every other competitor had to pay the full 30% they’d probably stay very quiet. 

[Ein0r]

Either way, nothing will change for the end consumer. Prices will stay the same, ads will be the same, we consumers get nothing out of it. Many smaller devs and companies might benefit from that. That extra on cash will help them employ an additional person, or use it to increase the wages for their employees. Hahaha I am just kidding. It will be used to buy the first, second or third yacht, and maybe a nice condo in downtown New York for the ceo.

 

Yea, I am slightly exaggerating. But I doubt that it will benefit anyone significantly but the chefs of their respective dev companies and maybe take a small burden off the shoulders of startups if there is the outlook for a higher revenue stream in the end.

 

 

[YellowJersey]

My advice to people thinking of going to law school: DON'T

[Fatih19]

18 hours ago, Ein0r said:

That extra on cash will help them employ an additional person, or use it to increase the wages for their employees. Hahaha I am just kidding. It will be used to buy the first, second or third yacht, and maybe a nice condo in downtown New York for the ceo.

 

 

Because investing in something that doesn't allow you to make more money is a smart business move, got it.

[Lord Vile]

On 9/16/2020 at 5:36 AM, Results45 said:

Can you please do a similar video on the hardware side of things if Louis Rossman, his allies, and the hardware repair trade consortium he is trying to establish get anywhere with Right to Repair?

 

As much YouTube content as I could find on the issue:

 

You know Louis Rossman is the real deal when his mascot is a black sheep, his nickname is "PPBUS_G3_HOT", and his motto is "I've lived in New York for thirty-two years and I sure know bullshit."

Rossman is a fraud, a poor technician and just a little bit stupid

[Video Beagle]

1 hour ago, Lord Vile said:

Rossman is a fraud, a poor technician and just a little bit stupid

That's a bit harsh.  I mean, not necessarily inaccurate, but a bit harsh. He's a horse cart repairman in an age of automobiles. I appreciate his position...I even appreciate the point of view he brings...but the ways held up as some sort of...prophet...is ridiculous.

 

Some points: 

 

I appreciate Linus FINALLY mentioning at the very end of the video that Floatplane has had issues with the App store, BUT, 1)  Said BIAS really should have been mentioned at the start of what is an opinion piece, and 2) calling Floatplane a "sister company" to LTT/LMG is a bit burying the lede...as Riley posted this thread, I guess that means he wrote it, and for him, that's where the bias is, but for @LinusTech, he's the OWNER of the company...that's a level of financial interest that affects every word he says on this issue. (On a personal note, maybe Linus as the head of what wants to be a serious technology information news source, and LMG in general as what wants to be a serious technology news source, maybe should stop using donald trump's gaff as a nickname for Tim Cook. It's not the best look.)

 

Is the problem no third party app store or is the problem the 30%?  They're not the same issue, and frankly only tangentially related. On the 30%...as Linus says in the video..it's the standard across the industry. Maybe it's too high, maybe it's not.. that's not a matter for the courts (and as for the duopoly/collusion argument mentioned...as it is the standard well beyond both Apple's and Google's stores, that argument doesn't work).

 

As for other app stores. I don't see that going anywhere.  You're not entitled to enter a marketplace just because you want to. You can't set up a stall in your local mall, you can't open a both at a farmers market., you technically can't put a table selling lemonade on the street, just because you think you're entitled to it. I've seen arguments in other threads like "if you don't sell in the Apple store, you're cut off from x%", but again, where does this idea you're just allowed access come from? It's their mall. There are plenty of other malls you can go sell at, but this one is theirs.

 

An aside, on the policies...blame scammers. I list an app for free (no revenue to Apple for app purchases, no rent in the Apple store), then just sell in-app purchases...well, if there's no money taken from those, then you're just making money off Apple's service for nothing. I doubt a legal ruling against apple on this will be the boon people think it will be...instead, I see the end of free apps with IAP and instead a return to "light but free" apps and "full paid" ones.

 

Regarding all the "but Apple changes things for xxxx" comments in the video, I ask..so what? Life isn't fair. Doesn't make things illegal. Netflix as a service brings value to the platform. Amazon as a service brings value to the platform. That value gives them room to negotiate. Apple didn't see Epic/Fortnite bringing value to make deals with them. Maybe short sitedness on Apple's part...maybe they just don't like Tim Sweeny...maybe Sweeny isn't the chess-master here with plans and counter plans, but instead he's dancing to Apple's tune...thing about legal rulings..they eliminate grey areas for all sides and lots of people operate in grey areas until they're gone, and I'm a bit more confident in the legal advice Apple has than Epic.

[Lord Vile]

10 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

That's a bit harsh.  I mean, not necessarily in accurate, but a bit harsh. He's a buggy repairman in an age of cars. I appreciate his position...I even appreciate the point of view he brings...but the way's held up as some sort of...prophet...is ridiculous.

From what I've seen his standards are fairly poor and he probably has a lot of repeat customers from botched repairs. Didn't the bike he built explode fairly recentlt becuase of shoddy workmanship? 

10 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

 

Some points: 

 

I appreciate Linus FINALLY mentioning at the very end of the video that Floatplane has had issues with the App store, BUT, 1)  Said BIAS really should have been mentioned at the start of what is an opinion piece, and 2) calling Floatplane a "sister company" to LTT/LMG is a bit burying the lede...as Riley posted this thread, I guess that means he wrote it, and for him, that's where the bias is, but for @LinusTech, he's the OWNER of the company...that's a level of financial interest that affects every word he says on this issue. (On a personal note, maybe Linus as the head of what wants to be a serious technology information news source, and LMG in general as what wants to be a serious technology news source, maybe should stop using donald trump's gaff as a nickname for Tim Cook. It's not the best look.)

I agree should have been at the start of the video as a massive disclaimer. "I own a company that has a vested interest in Epic winning" is a massive conflict of interest and even though Riley wrote it Linus signs off on it. Didn't know about the Tim Cook thing, just thought it was a stupid thing they'd thought up because why have software that actually works when you can have Windows 10.

10 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

 

As for other app stores. I don't see that going anywhere.  You're not entitled to enter a marketplace just because you want to. You can't set up a stall in your local mall, you can't open a both at a farmers market., you techically can't put a table selling lemonade on the street, just because you think you're entitled to it. I've seen arguments in other threads like "if you don't sell in the Apple store, you're cut off from x%", but again, where does this idea you're just allowed access come from? It's their mall. There are plenty of other malls you can go sell at, but this one is theirs.

Epic tried to make their own app store on android but essentially they found out that building one without holding AAA games hostage was too hard so they gave up. In my opinion the lawsuit should be thrown out as frivolous because epic trade on markets with the same terms as the app store and haven't kicked up a fuss (PSN and XBL), sue all of them or none of them.

10 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

 

An aside, on the policies...blame scammers. I list an app for free (no revenue to Apple for app purchases, no rent in the Apple store), then just sell in-app purchases...well, if there's no money taken from those, then you're just making money off Apple's service for nothing. I doubt a legal ruling against apple on this will be the boon people think it will be...instead, I see the end of free apps with IAP and instead a return to "light but free" apps and "full paid" ones.

TBH I preferred when you just paid £1-2 an app rather than getting bombarded by ads and microtransactions.

10 minutes ago, Video Beagle said:

 

Regarding all the "but Apple changes things for xxxx" comments in the video, I ask..so what? Life isn't fair. Doesn't make things illegal. Netflix as a service brings value to the platform. Amazon as a service brings value to the platform. That value gives them room to negotiate. Apple didn't see Epic/Fortnite bringing value to make deals with them. Maybe short sitedness on Apple's part...maybe they just don't like Tim Sweeny...maybe Sweeny isn't the chessmaster here with plans and counter plans, but instead he's dancing to Apple's tune...thing about legal rulings..they eliminate grey areas for all sides and lots of people operate in grey areas until they're gone, and I'm a bit more confident in the legal advice Apple has than Epic.

It's fairly common to have exceptions for large clientele, I don't get the issue either.