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emosun

Windows 10 Ameliorated Ordered to cease operations due to LTT video

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13 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

"hours after the video was posted"

 

Lets use some common sense here and a proper understanding of how the legal process works.

A cease and desist order must be signed off by or approved by a Judge or an Adjutant. This is a multi-stage process that can take days to weeks to get. NOT Hours.

Thusly Microsoft was already in the process of issuing this to those responsible prior to LTT's video.  This was not Linus, LMG or LTT's fault. In order for Linus to be implicated in any of this Microsoft had to have an insight to LTT making and posting this before hand... well before and listing them in the order as a source.

 

If a cease and desist was issue by Microsoft' lawyers without the due process then Microsoft screwed up, big. And I doubt Microsoft is ignorant to the process.

There are C&D orders and C&D letters. Microsoft can write and send-out their own C&D letters without government or court involvement.

 

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/cease-and-desist.asp

https://www.upcounsel.com/cease-and-desist

 

Though, the OP doesn't make clear which the Win 10 Ameliorated project received. They could have received a C&C letter and reported they've been ordered to stop distributing their modified Windows image.

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On 9/5/2020 at 6:22 PM, TetraSky said:

I'm just surprised it happened so quickly after the video. Surely MS was aware of them before... right?

Lots of times, companies will turn a blind eye to something until it gets too big or they get it rubbed in their face, and then they have to take action.


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Indeed a Cease and Desist letter is what was likely received, only if such a letter is ignored would they have gone the full legal route, which costs time and money.

 

Now it still could have been an 'order' , in which case ,as has been explained, would mean LTTs video had nothing to do with it, but it would be one hell of a coincidence.


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4 hours ago, emosun said:

And i wouldn't mess with a version of windows that had windows updates as that's far more likely to break core functionality lol

Far more likely based on what stat? I certainly have experienced bugs where an Update caused some issue - but rarely if ever have I experienced Windows 10 literally irreversibly break due to an Update. Now, I'm certainly not the authority on Windows 10, but I do manage well over 100 Windows 10 PC's at work. We don't update them frequently, but we do update them.

 

I think the worst bug we experienced that I can think of off the top of my head was when an update broke the search bar. Super annoying, but you could temporarily fix the issue by uninstalling the update, and it was fixed very quickly.

 

Would I risk breaking my search bar vs risk running unpatched Windows? Hell yes I would - particularly long term.

 

Any OS can experience bugs. Whether that be Linux, MacOS, or Windows. Does Windows experience more bugs than the others? Perhaps. Windows 10 certainly isn't perfect. But if that's the case, running it unpatched seems goddamn insane, since you're taking a version of Windows that you already profess is "buggy" and you're running it unpatched.


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This really sucks.  I doubt I'd have ever used it since it really neutered Windows 10 to a level I was uncomfortable with, but I could see the appeal.  I know some call this piracy, but there was a very legitimate way to use this without it being illegal.  

 

That said, I agree with what @SansVarnic says on the last page:

18 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

"hours after the video was posted"

 

Lets use some common sense here and a proper understanding of how the legal process works.

A cease and desist order must be signed off by or approved by a Judge or an Adjutant. This is a multi-stage process that can take days to weeks to get. NOT Hours.

Thusly Microsoft was already in the process of issuing this to those responsible prior to LTT's video.  This was not Linus, LMG or LTT's fault. In order for Linus to be implicated in any of this Microsoft had to have an insight to LTT making and posting this before hand... well before and listing them in the order as a source.

 

If a cease and desist was issue by Microsoft' lawyers without the due process then Microsoft screwed up, big. And I doubt Microsoft is ignorant to the process.


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45 minutes ago, Quinnell said:

This really sucks.  I doubt I'd have ever used it since it really neutered Windows 10 to a level I was uncomfortable with, but I could see the appeal.  I know some call this piracy, but there was a very legitimate way to use this without it being illegal.  

 

That said, I agree with what @SansVarnic says on the last page:

As I showed some posts above yours, Microsoft can't issue a legally-binding C&D order to shut-down the project, but Microsoft can write and deliver their own C&D letter which tells the project that they are violating Microsoft's copyrights and must stop or face legal action.

 

In all likeliness, the project received a C&D letter and not a C&D court order. A C&D court order, along with a possible lawsuit, would probably be the next step if the demands of a C&D letter were ignored.

 

Even if it was a C&D letter, I'm not saying that LTT's video caused the C&D to happen. I also don't see this outcome as all that bad since the project will continue and a lot more people are aware of it now - and the more people working to stop Microsoft's bad behaviour and making noise about it, the better. Plus, it seems that other people are already sharing their modified Windows images. So, so far, I see no loss for the side of right, only gain.

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1 minute ago, Delicieuxz said:

As I mentioned some posts above yours, Microsoft can't issue a legally-binding order to shut-down the project, but Microsoft can write and deliver their own C&D letter which tells the project that they are violating Microsoft's copyrights and must stop or face legal action.

 

In all likeliness, the project received a C&D letter and not a C&D court order. A C&D court order, along with a possible lawsuit, would probably be the next step if the demands of a C&D letter were ignored.

 

Even if it was a C&D letter, I'm not saying that LTT's video caused the C&D to happen. I also don't see this outcome as all that bad, since the project will continue and a lot more people are aware of it now - the more people working to stop Microsoft's bad behaviour, the better. Plus, it seems that other people are already sharing their modified Windows images. So, I so far see no loss for the side of right, only gain.

I must've missed your post as I skimmed thru the thread.  I had forgotten about Cease and Desist letters.  Thanks for reminding me; I don't think Microsoft should be trying to shut these people down if they're offering a legal alternative to the official ISOs.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the modified ISO did not come pre-activated and still needed a license from Microsoft.  If so, a C&D letter seems overkill.


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7 minutes ago, Quinnell said:

I must've missed your post as I skimmed thru the thread.  I had forgotten about Cease and Desist letters.  Thanks for reminding me; I don't think Microsoft should be trying to shut these people down if they're offering a legal alternative to the official ISOs.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the modified ISO did not come pre-activated and still needed a license from Microsoft.  If so, a C&D letter seems overkill.

Like it or not, Microsoft was 100% justified in shutting down the pre-made ISO. And as far as I'm aware, yes, the ISO came pre-activated with a generic key that bypassed the normal activation system and converted it to an Enterprise KMS activation system. Realistically, that's the part that probably got them in trouble.

 

Aside from that, Microsoft didn't shut down the entire project or the guide itself - just the pre-made ISO.


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Just now, Quinnell said:

I must've missed your post as I skimmed thru the thread.  I had forgotten about Cease and Desist letters.  Thanks for reminding me; I don't think Microsoft should be trying to shut these people down if they're offering a legal alternative to the official ISOs.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the modified ISO did not come pre-activated and still needed a license from Microsoft.  If so, a C&D letter seems overkill.

I don't know, but I guess the situation is as dalekphalm has just said. I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but according to some posts, their modified image didn't come pre-activated but they still can't distribute the IP-holder's copyrighted work without their permission. And the intention of the image seems to be to use it with KMS activation, which would imply that the image was being distributed for piracy.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
6 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

since you're taking a version of Windows that you already profess is "buggy" and you're running it unpatched.

old problems > new problems 

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I liked the video. It was very interesting, and I appreciate them making videos like this even if some big company might get upset. If they stopped making certain videos in order to not upset somebody I would be disappointed.

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To state that LTT had a direct impact on this without backing it up is a bit lackluster.

 

I have a hard time seeing a large company reacting after only 4 days one Youtube channel makes a video about this. Microsoft must have (I believe) had planned to take this down even before the video was released.


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Blaming LTT is the wrong thing to do. No matter if they had a direct impact or not. They basically just made a video about something they spotted on internet, and showed what it is. 

 

The only one to blame here is the website that made it available, not the one who made a video about it being available. 

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On 9/9/2020 at 10:21 AM, dalekphalm said:

Far more likely based on what stat? I certainly have experienced bugs where an Update caused some issue - but rarely if ever have I experienced Windows 10 literally irreversibly break due to an Update. Now, I'm certainly not the authority on Windows 10, but I do manage well over 100 Windows 10 PC's at work. We don't update them frequently, but we do update them.

 

I think the worst bug we experienced that I can think of off the top of my head was when an update broke the search bar. Super annoying, but you could temporarily fix the issue by uninstalling the update, and it was fixed very quickly.

 

Would I risk breaking my search bar vs risk running unpatched Windows? Hell yes I would - particularly long term.

 

Any OS can experience bugs. Whether that be Linux, MacOS, or Windows. Does Windows experience more bugs than the others? Perhaps. Windows 10 certainly isn't perfect. But if that's the case, running it unpatched seems goddamn insane, since you're taking a version of Windows that you already profess is "buggy" and you're running it unpatched.

I work in the computer repair industry and I have had to fix my fair share of Windows faux pas. 1803 and its nonsense back in the day breaking MBRs and whatnot. But that is neither here nor there. Biggest thing is running updates in general. How many major exploits have been patched in the past 18 months? 5-6? So running no updates at all because there is no update system to begin with is just categorically ignorant, self-defeating illogical nonsense.  That is even more so of people running around without an antivirus or the windows one turned off entirely. As I tell friends and family: Running without updates or an AV for that matter is like going to red light district, asking for everyone's service and not wear protection. Who knows what you are going to get? Not only is it just absolutely stupid you are putting yourself at severe risks later. 

So sorry for the rant. 


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7 minutes ago, Pickles - Lord of the Jar said:

I work in the computer repair industry and I have had to fix my fair share of Windows faux pas. 1803 and its nonsense back in the day breaking MBRs and whatnot. But that is neither here nor there. Biggest thing is running updates in general. How many major exploits have been patched in the past 18 months? 5-6? So running no updates at all because there is no update system to begin with is just categorically ignorant, self-defeating illogical nonsense.  That is even more so of people running around without an antivirus or the windows one turned off entirely. It is like walking into the red light district without protection and asking for everyone's service. Who knows how many things you are going to get. 

Agreed on all points. Windows bugs DO EXIST. No one is denying that. Sometimes the bugs are massive. Most of the time, even the massive ones only affect a specific subset of users (due to the massive possible combination of system parts, drivers, and software).

 

The kind of person that is likely to use this kind of custom ISO, is also probably the same kind of person that says "common sense is all the AV you need" - it's just an ignorant statement. Yeah you can run a system without AV and not get viruses. But the argument that common sense will always protect you is just dumb and dangerous to less technical users. Malware has become so much more advanced that many malware infections can happen even through totally legitimate services or websites, or can happen without you even noticing it. I can drive my car and not wear my seatbelt, but I do anyway because you just never know when you'll need it. And when you do need it, it'll be too late.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
2 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Yeah you can run a system without AV and not get viruses. But the argument that common sense will always protect you is just dumb and dangerous to less technical users.


So your entire argument hinges on the user being non technical or uneducated in pc security basics. Your argument would be quite good if we were all exact clones of each other.

But do be sure to now talk about how every single person needs to drive a 1 week old car with the latest security features and to not do so would be dangerous.

 

Every argument always comes down to a person not seeing the other sides point of view.

If you can't see that windows updates are extremely bad and annoying to people who have no use for them , then that's on you and your lack of experience outside your own bubble.

I don;t care if other people wanna leave their updates on , doesnt effect me. But i sure as heck am not going to tell experienced users who know what they're doing for their own situation what to do. lol that's just silly

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11 minutes ago, emosun said:

So your entire argument hinges on the user being non technical or uneducated in pc security basics. Your argument would be quite good if we were all exact clones of each other.

Not at all. Technically inclined people can and do catch viruses - even while using "common sense".

 

Sure, you can argue that common sense helps avoid viruses. But it does not stop virus risk completely.

11 minutes ago, emosun said:

But do be sure to now talk about how every single person needs to drive a 1 week old car with the latest security features and to not do so would be dangerous.

Your argument is disingenuous. A car - particularly older cars, have very limited attack vectors for malware. But lack of security for web connected cars is a thing, and it can be a huge problem.

11 minutes ago, emosun said:

Every argument always comes down to a person not seeing the other sides point of view.

Sure - but you should consider both sides.

11 minutes ago, emosun said:

If you can't see that windows updates are extremely bad and annoying to people who have no use for them , then that's on you and your lack of experience outside your own bubble.

Annoying? Yes, I'll give you that. Bad? As bad as any system that updates can be. Worse than some, better than others.

 

My biggest gripe with updates is lack of easy control over how I want my system to be updated. I still want to be able to easily update it, but I also want control over when and how it happens. Particularly as a system administrator.

11 minutes ago, emosun said:

I don;t care if other people wanna leave their updates on , doesnt effect me. But i sure as heck am not going to tell experienced users who know what they're doing for their own situation what to do. lol that's just silly

 You're certainly welcome to do what you wish. I'm also welcome to criticize your choices if I feel like they're bad choices.

 

Anyone can disable updates if they wish - I just don't recommend it. Postpone updates until they're vetted? By all means. Never update? I would not recommend that at all unless it's not web connected.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
28 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

I'm also welcome to criticize your choices if I feel like they're bad choices.

Only issue there is you have basically zero information regarding the configuration of any of the machines i use , the use cases , or the network i have , or the external networks I access , or... anything in general.

To criticize with zero information is usually reserved for..... youtubes comments and reddit levels of diagnostics. So i'll hold any of your critiques to the same level as those.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
33 minutes ago, rrubberr said:

I run Windows 8.1 embedded on my daily machine, mostly Windows 7 for things I virtualize because I got a couple dozen licenses free, I have a Windows 2000 machine running and connected to the internet. You don't need the latest OS version nor do you need the latest updates. That's silly. "Just don't get viruses" really isn't a hard task to accomplish :P 

 

Maybe magical spooky doom viruses exist and I'm just not smart enough to find them 🤷‍♂️

Yeah can't wait for someone to tell me how to install windows 10 to a 486 dx-40 lol

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2 minutes ago, emosun said:

Only issue there is you have basically zero information regarding the configuration of any of the machines i use , the use cases , or the network i have , or the external networks I access , or... anything in general.

To criticize with zero information is usually reserved for..... youtubes comments and reddit levels of diagnostics. So i'll hold any of your critiques to the same level as those.

You do you. I'm not going to lose sleep that you don't agree with my statements.


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The good old "you must update" war. My gaming PC was my daily driver until w7 was EOL, it didnt seen any windows updates since 2016. KAV rescue CD wasnt able to find anything on it............. 9_9

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17 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

The good old "you must update" war. My gaming PC was my daily driver until w7 was EOL, it didnt seen any windows updates since 2016. KAV rescue CD wasnt able to find anything on it............. 9_9

That’s the seatbelt argument all over again. 
 

Just because you didn’t get infected doesn’t make it a good idea. You’re definitely welcome to take that risk if you fully understand it - but part of that was luck. Other users might do the same thing and get malware through no fault of their own. 
 

Just like many people go their entire lives with never getting into a car accident. Does that mean you should drive without a seatbelt? Hell

no. That’s a stupid decision. Things can happen outside of your control. 
 

I’m not going to say you *must* update. But it’s a good idea to at least update periodically, even if it’s only once every six months or whatever. 


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Posted · Original PosterOP
8 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

That’s the seatbelt argument all over again. 
 

Just because you didn’t get infected doesn’t make it a good idea. You’re definitely welcome to take that risk if you fully understand it - but part of that was luck. Other users might do the same thing and get malware through no fault of their own. 
 

Just like many people go their entire lives with never getting into a car accident. Does that mean you should drive without a seatbelt? Hell

no. That’s a stupid decision. Things can happen outside of your control. 
 

I’m not going to say you *must* update. But it’s a good idea to at least update periodically, even if it’s only once every six months or whatever. 

dying in a car accident = having to do a system restore to an earlier date

 

lol

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Posted · Original PosterOP
32 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

The good old "you must update" war. My gaming PC was my daily driver until w7 was EOL, it didnt seen any windows updates since 2016. KAV rescue CD wasnt able to find anything on it............. 9_9

exactly , I think one of my windows 7 machines only has 3 updates and one of them was a .net framework update lol

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