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Cederick

[The Verge] FBI worried Ring and other doorbell cameras could tip owners off to police searches

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Posted · Original PosterOP

So this is my first post here but I found nothing about this on the forum after searching for this and thought it might be of interest since Ring has/had some sponsor spots on the channel. and thought it would be of interest since

 

So it seem like the FBI is worried about video dorbells since they can alert owners of these prducts of FBI raids and so on.
Also an interesting quote: "At one point, Ring offered law enforcement a “heat map” that showed the concentration of cameras in an area, and it’s reportedly partnered with hundreds of law enforcement agencies and helped them encourage users to hand over footage."

Source:
https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/31/21408861/fbi-doorbell-camera-police-search-surveillance-warning-document

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28 minutes ago, Cederick said:

So this is my first post here but I found nothing about this on the forum after searching for this and thought it might be of interest since Ring has/had some sponsor spots on the channel. and thought it would be of interest since

 

So it seem like the FBI is worried about video dorbells since they can alert owners of these prducts of FBI raids and so on.
Also an interesting quote: "At one point, Ring offered law enforcement a “heat map” that showed the concentration of cameras in an area, and it’s reportedly partnered with hundreds of law enforcement agencies and helped them encourage users to hand over footage."

Source:
https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/31/21408861/fbi-doorbell-camera-police-search-surveillance-warning-document

 
 
 
 

Wait, so law enforcement is concerned about the very thing they do to citizens on a regular basis? HA. HAHA. HAHAHAHAHA. That's rich. That's hilariously ironic.

 

To be clear, the dangerous and covert missions that law enforcement sometimes put themselves in front of are not easy work, but you can't have it both ways. Double standards are how you create an us vs. them situation, which is exactly the opposite of what our law enforcement & society need. (Remember, they work for us, not the other way around.)


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Ah, so Ring doorbells let people know of no-knock raids? Good. 

No fucking reason no-knocks should be legal. 


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I'm hoping someday that here in the USA cameras will be everywhere, linked and can be accessed by cops, news people, everyone.

 

Bad stuff often happens in the same places perpetrated by the same people for years not to mention all levels of random bad.

I just think that stuff that happens in public should be easily recorded and easily available for the public good.

 

I feel everyone needs to be able to record, the bad have to have that right so that the good can also have that protected right to record in public. To help us all it would be just easier if cameras were everywhere in public places and those who choose to link their private property cameras with it as well.

 

Another side benefit with all those cameras is that more jobs would need to be created to look through all that linked footage.

Anything that creates more jobs is also a good thing to me.  

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3 hours ago, handymanshandle said:

Ah, so Ring doorbells let people know of no-knock raids? Good. 

No fucking reason no-knocks should be legal. 

like any other camera system could in theory do the same thing lol


that's the hilarious thing


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Reason Im installing CCTV at my house.  Not that Im worried about the law, but no one listens to the no trespassing, no solicitors, etc etc signs I have up.


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I legitimately installed low profile cameras on my back porch and front door back when I was a twitch streamer, being swatted was all too real a fear of mine. had an old 640p monitor controled by a Pi that would turn on if movement was detected. Was comforting to know that I would know if I was being swatted before it happened.


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5 hours ago, Intergalacticbits said:

 

I'm hoping someday that here in the USA cameras will be everywhere, linked and can be accessed by cops, news people, everyone.

 

So Xinjiang China.

This not the path you want to go down. (Jump to the 7 minute mark)

 

Surveillance is okay until someone decides to use it as pre-crime. Then it becomes a slippery slope of arresting people and looking for crimes to charge them with. 

 

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9 hours ago, handymanshandle said:

Ah, so Ring doorbells let people know of no-knock raids? Good. 

No fucking reason no-knocks should be legal. 

Yes, yes they should, a kidnapper with people inside? Wait for him to leave then bust in, avoids conflict.

 

drug house? Wait for people to leave then bust in, less chance of an officer getting injured.

 

been chasing after someone for a violent crime and know they’re in the house? Bust in take them into custody, don’t give them a chance to escape. 


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14 hours ago, Intergalacticbits said:

I'm hoping someday that here in the USA cameras will be everywhere, linked and can be accessed by cops, news people, everyone.

Dear god, no. You ever heard of this thing called privacy? Surveillance should be limited to the absolute minimum.

 

14 hours ago, Intergalacticbits said:

Bad stuff often happens in the same places perpetrated by the same people for years not to mention all levels of random bad.

Security cameras aren't even proven to decrease crime


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Let's police look at your cameras, let's you look at police.

At least they're fair. Somewhat anyway. Not really but still. Our intelligence community(ies) are so obvious it's ironically funny. 


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Pretty sure this just counts as fair play, the fact that Ring doorbells are named over any other camera system is a bit pointed. There's plenty of camera doorbells on the market and none of which any agency should have access to without request. If the police want access to cameras they can ask, like any other agency above them. 

 

Last time I checked Ring doorbells are also privately owned devices on local networks unless you add the internet client so there must be a condition in the user agreement to allow full access from any agency the company wishes to partner with when using the cloud app vs private network local use. 

 

Legal question, this may fall under the espionage act for private property surveillance without warrant on the police side of things, obviously for criminals a warrant would be no big deal but to blanket surveillance based on a privately owned device, we're firmly in the grey zone of legality.  
 

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Must suck being in a country where Freedom and Liberty are part of its cornerstone.  I fully support the rights of the individual over collectivism.  Law enforcement will just have to learn to live with the fact we have our own security cameras, motion sensors, and firearms.


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On 9/1/2020 at 10:22 AM, handymanshandle said:

Ah, so Ring doorbells let people know of no-knock raids? Good. 

No fucking reason no-knocks should be legal. 

There are plenty of situations where no knock raids are appropriate. Hostage situations, human trafficking, drug operations, etc.


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2 hours ago, Vitamanic said:

There are plenty of situations where no knock raids are appropriate. Hostage situations, human trafficking, drug operations, etc.

DOXX'ing and SWATTING.

 

Just sayin, in an ideal situation, if a swat team really had a reason to raid an apartment or home, they would start by taking a shot at the breaker/fuse to the house or neighborhood:

Electricity-from-the-pole-4.jpg

Of course that would be a rather obvious tell that they're being raided if that's how the swat team is known to operate.

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On 9/1/2020 at 11:22 AM, handymanshandle said:

No fucking reason no-knocks should be legal. 

if cops knock and wait until someone answers the criminals get away through the back of the house

 

that's why such things exist

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On 9/1/2020 at 11:25 AM, Intergalacticbits said:

 

I'm hoping someday that here in the USA cameras will be everywhere, linked and can be accessed by cops, news people, everyone.

 

Bad stuff often happens in the same places perpetrated by the same people for years not to mention all levels of random bad.

I just think that stuff that happens in public should be easily recorded and easily available for the public good.

 

I feel everyone needs to be able to record, the bad have to have that right so that the good can also have that protected right to record in public. To help us all it would be just easier if cameras were everywhere in public places and those who choose to link their private property cameras with it as well.

 

Another side benefit with all those cameras is that more jobs would need to be created to look through all that linked footage.

Anything that creates more jobs is also a good thing to me.  

George Orwell could have written this into a book.

 

 

Oh wait.


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3 minutes ago, Caroline said:

if cops knock and wait until someone answers the criminals get away through the back of the house

 

that's why such things exist

 

On the other hand in a nation where you're allowed to protect your own house, and SWAT/police teams frequently get the wrong address for raids and no-knocks, there's a lot of unnecessary injury and death surrounding them. As a practice they need to go away in most of the cases they're used in, like drug enforcement. Catching some dealer is not worth obliterating a whole house and the occupants inside, especially when it's the wrong house. 


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A win for organized crime. Drug dealers, smugglers, and hitmen rejoice. 


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5 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

 

On the other hand in a nation where you're allowed to protect your own house, and SWAT/police teams frequently get the wrong address for raids and no-knocks, there's a lot of unnecessary injury and death surrounding them. As a practice they need to go away in most of the cases they're used in, like drug enforcement. Catching some dealer is not worth obliterating a whole house and the occupants inside, especially when it's the wrong house. 

mmm right but shouldn't they investigate a bit before raiding? you know to make sure that's the right house, and the right guys they're trying to catch.

 

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Just now, Caroline said:

mmm right but shouldn't they investigate a bit before raiding? you know to make sure that's the right house, and the right guys they're trying to catch.

 

They should, but unfortunately there have been so many instances in the last few years where they've transposed digits in the address or gone into the wrong apartment. Conceptually I don't have an issue with those no-knocks on actual violent criminals, but only if the work is done and their info is tight. They use no-knocks too much like part of an investigation these days, they should have everything they need including location well locked-down before they kick a door in. 


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1 hour ago, Caroline said:

if cops knock and wait until someone answers the criminals get away through the back of the house

 

that's why such things exist

While I understand and kinda agree with this argument... isn't it already part of SWAT procedure to cover the back exits before they break down the door anyway?  Thinking about it I suppose this still leaves them open to getting shot since the criminals would have time to get their guns and ambush the officers vs. being caught unprepared.  Idk.  Feels like there's flaws to banning and allowing no-knocks.  


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Almost like there's no such thing as an easy answer.


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On 9/3/2020 at 4:15 AM, Caroline said:

if cops knock and wait until someone answers the criminals get away through the back of the house

If cops are doing a no knock raid, they should already have the house surrounded


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