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Ryuzakimorgoth

Current gen vs Next gen

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24 minutes ago, Ertman said:

Yes, this has been true with every gen. Many Next Gen games coming out soon most likely started off as a project on the current Gen. This occurred when going from PS to PS2 to PS3 to PS4. Development time plays a factor to limiting how easily games can be upgraded to the next platform, but even a fully matured game will not have the dramatic improvements that came before it.
 

Developers have had access to computers with similar capabilities for years so it’s not like the games are just being ported over. Many games are in fact being ported backwards with the reduction in features to meet the old hardware.
 

Either way you’re still Not going to see the dramatic visual improvements as seen in previous gens transitions. JZStudios posted some information detailing why.

There wasn't a dramatic improvement from PS3 to 4 really. Once people got he CELL arch down it was stupidly powerful. 


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1 hour ago, Ertman said:

Neat bit. However diminishing returns doesn’t just apply to poly counts. The concept I am talking about is after a certain point improvements become a bit more nuanced and less dramatic. Then of course you run into hardware limitations when introducing or utilizing techniques to   Improve visuals.

 

Of course your post details much more of what I vaguely mentioned in the post you quoted.

 

As it is right now There is still plenty of room for visual improvements, it’s that the expectations of seeing those dramatic differences as seen in other console upgrades is unrealistic.

 

I get that. Texture resolution can only be pushed so high until the texel space is sub-pixel too. It all has diminishing returns. Eventually things will be fully path traced with proper materials and HDR and high poly counts, all that, and then... I guess the virtual worlds just get bigger? Doesn't really affect visuals though.

 

At some point lighting will be 100% accurate, or close enough it doesn't matter, textures will be sharp even on small objects, you won't see polygonal objects, anbisonic sound design (not a visual thing, but still.) We already have most games using a PBR material pipeline. Currently there's still some room for improvement, but that room is rapidly dwindling. If by next gen we can get full path tracing instead of partial for select things, I'd say that'll be about the highest it goes, then it moves on to scale. There's already 4k texture packs and UE5 has the dynamic subdivision technology.

 

I mean, eventually things will look like this, and there's not a lot more to go on it. And this is already running 30fps. The only real improvements are number of rays and/or light bounces, which is a hardcore hardware limitation.

 


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49 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

There wasn't a dramatic improvement from PS3 to 4 really. Once people got he CELL arch down it was stupidly powerful. 

Comparing the best looking PS3 games to average PS4 games shows a marked improvement, but yeah it took a long time for devs to figure out how the hell the PS3 worked. That's also why most games actually looked better on the 360 because it was just easier to make games for.


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14 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

Comparing the best looking PS3 games to average PS4 games shows a marked improvement, but yeah it took a long time for devs to figure out how the hell the PS3 worked. That's also why most games actually looked better on the 360 because it was just easier to make games for.

Uncharted 3v4 not a ton of difference 

 

 

 


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8 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Uncharted 3v4 not a ton of difference 

Are you kidding, or are you legally blind?

 


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11 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

There wasn't a dramatic improvement from PS3 to 4 really. Once people got he CELL arch down it was stupidly powerful. 

Yes, and how noticeable and dramatic those improvements will be will diminish with every generation. Ps1 to ps2 was a larger change than PS2 to PS3. I think this is forgone conclusion.
 

There’s still going to be improvements but how dramatic they, how noticeable they are diminishes over time. Because the how noticeable the improvements are and required computing power don’t scale linearly, it’s more exponential.

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7 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Are you kidding, or are you legally blind?

 

Tons of difference, truly next gen

hmmm.png


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10 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

Okay, so you are blind.

4 looks like the people are made of wax and have no expression.


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They are making a big issue out reduced (maybe nonexistent) load times, a much smoother U.I, improvements to their storefront etc...as well as the obvious graphical leap. 

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On 9/9/2020 at 8:03 PM, JZStudios said:

Okay, so you are blind.

There was, obviously, a huge improvement between U2 and U3 (in particular) versus U4.

 

U4 was a very nice looking console game.

 

I just finished playing it a second time on ps4 pro and it was a vast improvement over the ps3 games...even the remastered ones.

 

Yes, the campaign was only 30fps, but it really wasn't much of an issue after 10 minutes playing.

 

There weren't really any big frame drops, the assets looked pretty good, the animations etc...especially with regards the facial expressions, were excellent, and it felt like a AAA experience. 

 

If we get a ps5 Uncharted, I suspect it will be another noticable step up and going back to the ps4 version will be as stark a contrast as it was to go back to and look at the ps3 games just recently.

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5 hours ago, Maury Sells Wigs said:

There was, obviously, a huge improvement between U2 and U3 (in particular) versus U4.

Uncharted 1, 2, and 3 all came out on the PS3. That's not a generational leap. The more direct comparison for that would be Uncharted 4 compared to TLOU2. Either way the blow away the PS3 offerings.


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On 9/11/2020 at 5:28 PM, JZStudios said:

Uncharted 1, 2, and 3 all came out on the PS3. That's not a generational leap. The more direct comparison for that would be Uncharted 4 compared to TLOU2. Either way the blow away the PS3 offerings.

I said between U2 and 3 versus U4.

 

Perhaps, that sounded like I meant the difference between 2 and 3 was a bigger leap than between both a the 4th game on ps4.

 

I didn't mean that, however, and was saying that difference between 2 and 3 (on ps3) and the newest game, Uncharted 4 (on ps4) was a marked one and that any new Uncharted game on ps5 (if we get one) will probably be another noticable contrast between it and the previous iteration on last gen.

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On 8/30/2020 at 9:44 AM, Syn. said:

the new consoles are not going to be taken advantage of until a few years later, maybe the visual change won't be as big but in terms of physics and mechanics I would expect there would be a massive improvement to realism especially for open worlds.

 

though we are definitely not peaking, not even close.

My biggest question with the level of improvement is the frame rate - how many games will actually be at 4k 120Hz without dropping detail (given that HDMI 2.1 is not a common feature and is rather high end right now)? And how early in the generation will that occur?

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2 hours ago, Operaista said:

My biggest question with the level of improvement is the frame rate - how many games will actually be at 4k 120Hz without dropping detail (given that HDMI 2.1 is not a common feature and is rather high end right now)? And how early in the generation will that occur?

The CPU is easily capable of pushing that high of a framerate without special optimizations, they would just need to uncap the game, but whether that would be available on all games? I would guess likely not, they would have to trade Next-Gen graphics with resolution and framerate, because truth of the matter is the GPU isn't powerful enough to push for 4K120 while offering a Next-Gen experience at the same time, if they want to keep the same graphical fidelity as the PS4 then yes it is capable and that goes for other games in that same tier, they could offer the option to drop the resolution to 1440P or 1080P in exchange for higher FPS but that would be up to the developers.

 

as a note though, framerate is closely tied to the CPU because the CPU has to calculate each frame but it is not affected by resolution, so in that sense "4K 120/1440P 120/1080P 120" all load up the CPU to the same degree.


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On 9/8/2020 at 9:49 PM, Ertman said:

Neat bit. However diminishing returns doesn’t just apply to poly counts. The concept I am talking about is after a certain point improvements become a bit more nuanced and less dramatic. Then of course you run into hardware limitations when introducing or utilizing techniques to   Improve visuals.

100% and this is true of a lot of applications not just gaming. When I moved from a 5400RPM IDE drive to a 7200RPM SATA drive in the early 2000s that was a noticeable jump in performance, when I was a fairly early adopter of SSDs around I want to say 2010? That was another big jump in performance. But SATA to NVMe? .... on paper sure but was it a game changer? Not so much.

 

Of for like media distribution. Was BluRay a jump up from DVD? Hells yes, massive. BluRay to UHD BluRay? As someone who has a collection I must admit.... not so much. Hell, technically BluRay is often a step down from the bitrate you'd get from Netflix etc. Frankly even Netflix is good enough. Same with music. Cassettes were better than Vinyl, CDs were better than Cassettes, SACD was better than CD and mp3s were worse than CD. How to people consume music in 2020? mp3s via Spotify/AppleMusic or Vinyl. Why? Diminishing returns.

 

Same thing is happening with gaming. We're still getting these improvements but it's getting to the point where the only people who care could present a video on Digital Foundry. Which is great and more power to you but the average dude just wants to spend maybe 1-2hours relaxing at the end of the day. And for them there's, frankly, not that much of a gap between the Switch and PS4 let alone the PS4 and PS5. It's about playing games not looking at graphs and side by side comparisons and the gap between the best and worst hardware is tiny compared to what it used to be.

 

And to the people who disagree consider this. Is there a bigger gap between the GBA and original XBox or the Switch and the a high end gaming PC? If you're answer isn't the GBA and original XBox I think you're kidding yourself....


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21 hours ago, Syn. said:

The CPU is easily capable of pushing that high of a framerate without special optimizations, they would just need to uncap the game, but whether that would be available on all games? I would guess likely not, they would have to trade Next-Gen graphics with resolution and framerate, because truth of the matter is the GPU isn't powerful enough to push for 4K120 while offering a Next-Gen experience at the same time, if they want to keep the same graphical fidelity as the PS4 then yes it is capable and that goes for other games in that same tier, they could offer the option to drop the resolution to 1440P or 1080P in exchange for higher FPS but that would be up to the developers.

 

as a note though, framerate is closely tied to the CPU because the CPU has to calculate each frame but it is not affected by resolution, so in that sense "4K 120/1440P 120/1080P 120" all load up the CPU to the same degree.

Unfortunately, it seems like resolution always comes first with Sony and Microsoft, with frame rate an afterthought at best.

 

Them pressuring developers to produce shiny 4k visuals to show to the casual/parent market is the priority...even if the actual games run like like dog turd.

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16 minutes ago, Maury Sells Wigs said:

Unfortunately, it seems like resolution always comes first with Sony and Microsoft, with frame rate an afterthought at best.

 

Them pressuring developers to produce shiny 4k visuals to show to the casual/parent market is the priority...even if the actual games run like like dog turd.

There is a point where it does become difficult to push a higher frame rate. This console generation proved it, with many games aiming for a 33ms frame target (and failing to meet it) out of necessity because a mediocre CPU and disproportionate GPU power meant that you had to make use of the GPU in some way to impress someone. 

I do think there's going to be a considerable increase in 60fps titles this generation. The CPUs in both the Xbox Series X/S and PS5 are significantly more powerful than what they were in the Xbox One/X and PS4/Pro. That alone means that aiming for higher frame rates in the face of dealing with data compression and asset streaming will be far easier, or at least less of an obstacle.


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Just now, handymanshandle said:

There is a point where it does become difficult to push a higher frame rate. This console generation proved it, with many games aiming for a 33ms frame target (and failing to meet it) out of necessity because a mediocre CPU and disproportionate GPU power meant that you had to make use of the GPU in some way to impress someone. 

I do think there's going to be a considerable increase in 60fps titles this generation. The CPUs in both the Xbox Series X/S and PS5 are significantly more powerful than what they were in the Xbox One/X and PS4/Pro. That alone means that aiming for higher frame rates in the face of dealing with data compression and asset streaming will be far easier, or at least less of an obstacle.

You are right, it was getting to the point where there really wasn't much room left to push these old consoles any harder.

 

But, Sony (which is my frame of reference this gen) took the decision time and time again to try and push 4k (or fake 4k) at the expense of a stable frame rate.

I'd have been much happier to have 1080p 60fps as the gold standard, and if there was any room left push the frame rate.

 

Instead, they chose to push resolution. 

 

I had a base ps4 on release day 2013, and got a ps4 pro in 2017, and I rarely ever felt the pro was a genuine upgrade - even though it was more powerful. 

Jedi Fallen Order, in a typical move for ps4 pro, had a "performance" mode or a "resolution" mode.

So, you got a more stable fps with slightly reduced resolution in performance mode, and vice versa in resolution. 

 

In reality, neither mode had a stable fps, especially during intensive moments, and the difference in resolution was not something I could tell had any affect on the games quality. 

I have a bad feeling we are going to get another generation where it'll be all about resolution and frame rate will be a secondary issue. 

 

I agree with you that there shouldn't necessarily be a need to do that this time, but I still think they'll find a way.

There was already talk of Spiderman Miles Morales being 4k at 30fps when it was first revealed.

 

Spiderman on ps4 pro is great, but it's still only 30fps.

 

...and what has the ps5 version gone and done?

 

You guessed it, bumped the resolution to full native 4k and left the frame rate at 30.

 

Now, I hope that is not true, or has been debunked and I missed it.

But, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if it were true, knowing the way Sony have gone about the resolution vs frame rate issue.

 

Something, thankfully, we have much more direct, personal control over on pc.

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Yo are correct in saying that. I know when they announced the Xbox Series X last year they talked about graphics (and even though I thought they looked great), they put a lot of emphasis on loading times for a faster game, hence the Xbox Series X is able to run 120 FPS.

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Take my money, I'll get a PS5 at launch. Never had a single issue with any sony console I've owned. Microsoft on the other hand, that's a hard pass. I wouldn't buy it even if it was cheaper. 3 360's red ringed on me, 1 xbox one had a blu ray drive go bad, Xbox one x had a hdmi port take a shit. Sony will get my money once again


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On 8/30/2020 at 6:48 PM, Ryuzakimorgoth said:

So,I may have an unpopular opinion,at least when it comes to consoles enthusiasts.  But from what I have seen so far,the coming gen doesn't add much to console visuals or new impressive feats. Sure its going to have a beast of a GPU and the Zen 2 CPU sounds absolutely fantastic,but besides adding Ray Tracing(from what they said at least),there doesn't seem to be a huge leap in visuals. Not like the PS3 to PS4 era or even worse,the PS2 to PS3 era.

Maybe I'm the only one thinking so,but I feel like we are peaking in term of visual fidelity in gaming in general.

I also feel that it's not much of a huge leap from current gen to next gen consoles ( if you are not a hardcore gamer)

Like, I don't have a 4K monitor or TV now and I don't imagine having one in the near future, 1080p works very well for me

I also don't go looking for each and every minor details of the game 

If the game game does decent performance then that's enough for me

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