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Why do you think Intel has been struggling?

Hey LTT! First time poster here so pls be nice :)

 

Wanted to get some opinions on why Intel has been struggling. I took a look at their financials and found that they spent between 8x - 15x what AMD did on R&D over the last few years. The ratio was even higher before Zen/Ryzen. In fact, Intel spends far more on R&D than AMD, Nvidia, and TSMC combined. To put some hard numbers on it, last year, Intel spent US 13.5 billion dollars on R&D while AMD spent under US 2 billion. In fact, Intel's R&D budget is almost 2x AMD's revenues. 

 

Given the fact that their former CEO has been a lifelong engineer (I consider Brian Krzanich to be more responsible for the company's problems since he was CEO until 2019, and even Lisa Su took far longer than 18 months to turn AMD around) and they obviously have a lot of really talented people there, why do you think Intel just can't get their act together? After all, their Client Compute Group/Data Center Group account for >85 percent of the business, almost all their profits and the vast majority of their R&D expenses. 

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Maybe

Reminder⚠️

I'm just speaking from experience so what I say may not work 100%

Please try searching up the answer before you post here but I am always glad to help

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its not their cpu design thats the problem its that they cant produce the chips and i think its because they are targeting such high densities. saying your 10nm is more dense than tsmc's 7nm is all nice and good except you cant fucking produce any. and instead of learning a lesson and scaling back their 7nm density they are still trying to produce it at a ridiculously high density which just seems like hubris at this point

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I would guess that they've expanded to so many different areas because there wasn't any competition and have lost focus on the PC consumer space and they didn't expect AMD to come back hitting this hard, so with all the responsibilities on their hand it's hard to refocus, AMD started development on Zen from 2012 so you can imagine how long that process takes and every architecture they've released has been in development long before that, they came with a solid plan and they've been improving performance year after year even in massive ways starting from Zen 2 and now another major advancement with Zen 3 and another with Zen 4, it's gonna take a while for Intel to catch up

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3 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

its not their cpu design thats the problem its that they cant produce the chips and i think its because they are targeting such high densities. saying your 10nm is more dense than tsmc's 7nm is all nice and good except you cant fucking produce any. and instead of learning a lesson and scaling back their 7nm density they are still trying to produce it at a ridiculously high density which just seems like hubris at this point

Do you think there's something fundamentally wrong with Intel's approach? They seem to be much worse than TSMC even though they're spending a lot more money. 

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As I understand it, the micro architecture is quite different. Intel is trying to build off of their old stuff, while AMD made a brand new architecture with Zen. Keep in mind that Zen was actually pretty bad at launch, it was just very good for AMD (who'd had a very bad decade). Intel also can't just copy AMD's method because that would lead to enormous legal trouble.

Make sure to quote or tag me (@JoostinOnline) or I won't see your response!

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3 minutes ago, Syn. said:

I would guess that they've expanded to so many different areas because there wasn't any competition and have lost focus on the PC consumer space and they didn't expect AMD to come back hitting this hard, so with all the responsibilities on their hand it's hard to refocus, AMD started development on Zen from 2012 so you can imagine how long that process takes and every architecture they've released has been in development long before that, they came with a solid plan and they've been improving performance year after year even in massive ways starting from Zen 2 and now another major advancement with Zen 3 and another with Zen 4, it's gonna take a while for Intel to catch up

I made some additions to my post. The vast majority of their revenues, profit and R&D are for CPUs.

 

Sounds like you think this is a timing issue. Do you think they can come back in a few years? The company does have a ton of cash (>20 years worth of AMD's R&D expenses haha)

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5 minutes ago, JoostinOnline said:

As I understand it, the micro architecture is quite different. Intel is trying to build off of their old stuff, while AMD made a brand new architecture with Zen. Keep in mind that Zen was actually pretty bad at launch, it was just very good for AMD (who'd had a very bad decade). Intel also can't just copy AMD's method because that would lead to enormous legal trouble.

Are you referring to infinity fabric? I thought that glue logic was a standard industry thing. They just confirmed that their upcoming GPU has a chiplet design 

 

I remember when they were laughing about "glued together chips". Looks like it blew up in their faces. 

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My guess would be as Intel have grown they became the typical large corporate company, extremely risk adverse and lots of bureaucracy.

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9 minutes ago, JustSomeDude124 said:

I made some additions to my post. The vast majority of their revenues, profit and R&D are for CPUs.

 

Sounds like you think this is a timing issue. Do you think they can come back in a few years? The company does have a ton of cash (>20 years worth of AMD's R&D expenses haha)

I didn't say it wasn't CPUs but they have way more CPU designs than AMD especially in the server/business space, only just recently they've cancelled their Itanium lineup which has been in development and research since 2001 but it wasn't being sold to any consumer they are forced to provide support for it because other major businesses rely on you to release those processors, it's unknown if that had to do with AMD bringing back competition or if it was planned beforehand, but yeah I'd say it was bad timing and bad luck with COVID being around and the 10nm and 7nm failures, that's what I meant by they have way more things to take responsibility for and it was just too big for them to handle

 

I'm certain they will come back but I would never be able to guess when, AMD has been calculated with their CPU releases

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I think it's mostly down to just pure anti-consumer behavior. While AMD does have some confusion at the lower end, it's mostly pretty straight forward. You just pick how many cores you want for the most part.

 

Intel on the other hand has a hugely confusing lineup with chips that can overclock or not, chips with chips with varying cores and clocks at the same range, chips with SMT or not, and various other features they turn on or off to differentiate products where no meaningful difference exists.

 

Luke was just saying on the WAN show tonight that he thinks the best thing they could do is just pick a few key chips, focus exclusively on those, and then take the fight to AMD on price. That would drastically reduce costs because differentiation means more fabrication. They'll never do that though. It's traditionally been much more popular to nickel and dime consumers for features, and they haven't realized even to this day that that doesn't work when you've got a competitor that gives consumers everything unlocked.

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13 hours ago, JustSomeDude124 said:

Are you referring to infinity fabric? I thought that glue logic was a standard industry thing. They just confirmed that their upcoming GPU has a chiplet design 

 

I remember when they were laughing about "glued together chips". Looks like it blew up in their faces. 

Intel got mocked to hell and back for trying to dismiss AMD's chiplet design as "glued together". It's never been a bad thing. But yes, Infinity Fabric is one of the things I'm talking about.

 

Make sure to quote or tag me (@JoostinOnline) or I won't see your response!

PSU Tier List  |  The Real Reason Delidding Improves Temperatures"2K" does not mean 2560×1440 

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Maybe if Intel ditch their fabs and try to become fabless like AMD? Also cut prices will make them competitive and ditch all the restrictions...

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Apple A4 - Apple iPod touch (4th generation)
Apple A5 - Apple iPod touch (5th generation)
Apple A9 - Apple iPhone 6s Plus
HiSilicon Kirin 810 (T.S.M.C. 7nm) - Huawei P40 Lite / Huawei nova 7i
Mediatek MT2601 (T.S.M.C 28nm) - TicWatch E
Mediatek MT6580 (T.S.M.C 28nm) - TECNO Spark 2 (1GB RAM)
Mediatek MT6592M (T.S.M.C 28nm) - my|phone my32 (orange)
Mediatek MT6592M (T.S.M.C 28nm) - my|phone my32 (yellow)
Mediatek MT6735 (T.S.M.C 28nm) - HMD Nokia 3 Dual SIM
Mediatek MT6737 (T.S.M.C 28nm) - Cherry Mobile Flare S6
Mediatek MT6739 (T.S.M.C 28nm) - my|phone myX8 (blue)
Mediatek MT6739 (T.S.M.C 28nm) - my|phone myX8 (gold)
Mediatek MT6750 (T.S.M.C 28nm) - honor 6C Pro / honor V9 Play
Mediatek MT6765 (T.S.M.C 12nm) - TECNO Pouvoir 3 Plus
Mediatek MT6797D (T.S.M.C 20nm) - my|phone Brown Tab 1
Qualcomm MSM8926 (T.S.M.C. 28nm) - Microsoft Lumia 640 LTE
Qualcomm MSM8974AA (T.S.M.C. 28nm) - Blackberry Passport
Qualcomm SDM710 (Samsung 10nm) - Oppo Realme 3 Pro

 

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Intel hardly struggles. They have, and have had, way more R&D to work with. 

 

This title is CBAF.

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Intel is struggling? What led you to this conclusion? What's the purpose of a company? To produce the fastest (consumer) CPUs? No, the point is to generate self-sustaining profit as well as paying dividends to shareholders. And Intel generates money, lot's of it. I've attached the 2019 annual report, do you really think a company with a free cash flow of 16.9 billion USD, who paid a total of 5.6 billion USD in dividends and generated a net income of 21.048 billion USD is struggling? I call that very successful.

 

Don't get me wrong as I'm by no means a Intel fanboy. In fact I stuck with AMD even through the FX desaster because I've always thought that competition is important and I wanted to support them by purchasing their products. But calling Intel "struggling" while they sit on a huge pile of money? That's a bit far fetched.

2019-Annual-Report.pdf

There is no replacement for RGB except more RGB ?

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