The Problem With Linus Joking at others expense

[RejZoR]

People get offended over things too fast. So one has dyslexia. It's not like they chose to have it and if someone jokes about it, so what? It's something that's out of someone's control and shouldn't be offended over it no mater what. Be offended or ashamed of things in life that you have control over and you decided to fuck them up and people laugh at you for it or joke about you for it. If it's some sort of condition that's out of your control, NEVER be ashamed of it or feel bad about it. It's no different than shaming or laughing at people for their sexuality, skin color, their height and stuff like that. It's not something you decided for, it's how you were born and you just live with that.

[Kawaii Koneko]

On 7/11/2020 at 8:24 PM, spartaman64 said:

i disagree. there are people like that in every generation like the older people who got offended at rock and roll etc and i think its a good thing that people are offended by more things as crazy as it sounds. i am a big twitch watcher and with the recent metoo thing going through twitch i see a lot of streamers that ive watched and talked to for years come out and tell their stories about twitch staff or other streamers abusing their positions to take advantage of them and some justice is being done. and i cant help but think even just a few years ago this would have just been brushed under the rug as them overreacting or even worse that its expected of the abusers to act in that way. like sure there are instances where people genuinely overreact but i think its better that people care too much than people not caring. apathy has never made the world a better place

 

yes thats an example of where people overreacted but i think its better than the previous generations where people would get "canceled" for their sexual orientation etc 

You're deviating from the topic at hand by talking about me too stuff and Twitch drama. That's too much to get into here and would have to be evaluated on a case by case basis. I was talking about the joke Linus made and also how people get offended over differing opinions to the point they react violently.

 

11 hours ago, DaniIsAGoddess said:

My motivation for writing this post was the response people had hearing about someone being genuinely upset over linus' joke who had dyslexia.

Maybe they should come and complain then instead of someone else. People are always complaining and being offended for someone else. I want to hear from the actual offended party, not someone else.

 

11 hours ago, DaniIsAGoddess said:

What I meant by the phrase 'normalise bullying' was without the context of Linus' and Lukes long friendship, which not all viewers of WAN would have, the joke could be seen, and was seen by some, as being rude to luke over his dyslexia. 

That's just what happens then. If people aren't familiar with the show and aren't aware of how long Luke and Linus have known each other than that's not really anyone's problem but the viewer. I think most people are quick enough on the uptake that they can figure out when something is actually an insult or a joke. I mean come on. Most people watching will see the interactions between them and realize they have a friendly relationship and will easily be able to figure out it was just a friendly jab based on the rest of their interactions.

[spartaman64]

11 minutes ago, Kawaii Koneko said:

You're deviating from the topic at hand by talking about me too stuff and Twitch drama. That's too much to get into here and would have to be evaluated on a case by case basis. I was talking about the joke Linus made and also how people get offended over differing opinions to the point they react violently.

well like i said there are people who have violent outbursts in previous generations because they are offended by rock and roll or a certain group of people just existing so in comparison i dont think people today are any worse and i agree it has to be a case by case basis but I dont think its an indication that the current generation is worse and i just gave an example where it is a good thing and there are some things we should care about and get offended at even though previous generations didnt

[Kawaii Koneko]

24 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

well like i said there are people who have violent outbursts in previous generations because they are offended by rock and roll or a certain group of people just existing so in comparison i dont think people today are any worse and i agree it has to be a case by case basis but I dont think its an indication that the current generation is worse and i just gave an example where it is a good thing and there are some things we should care about and get offended at even though previous generations didnt

Getting offended over actual sexual assaults or whatever you are referring to is a completely different matter. Obviously, if any of it is true, it isn't an example of just being offended about something. It's quite serious. I don't know the exact context of the Twitch stuff you are talking about so it really doesn't help me understand where you are coming from. I'm talking about people being offended over jokes and others reacting violently to people with opposing views.

 

As for previous generations, they certainly played their part in being destructive but I don't remember them being violent over rock and roll though. I don't think you saw violent reactions like you see today. Just look at the destructive behavior you saw when Trump won. Just look at what is going on right now where people get shot for crossing barricades put up by protesters. Look at the conservatives that have been canceled from speaking at college campuses over concerns of violence. Remember when Berkeley had to cancel Milo Yiannopoulos after protesters caused over $100k in damage?

That is what I'm talking about. We live in a society where a sizable portion of our population cannot stand dissenting opinions to the point they react violently and many of them are unfortunately from my Millennial generation that I am a part of. 

[spartaman64]

1 hour ago, Kawaii Koneko said:

Getting offended over actual sexual assaults or whatever you are referring to is a completely different matter. Obviously, if any of it is true, it isn't an example of just being offended about something. It's quite serious. I don't know the exact context of the Twitch stuff you are talking about so it really doesn't help me understand where you are coming from. I'm talking about people being offended over jokes and others reacting violently to people with opposing views.

 

As for previous generations, they certainly played their part in being destructive but I don't remember them being violent over rock and roll though. I don't think you saw violent reactions like you see today. Just look at the destructive behavior you saw when Trump won. Just look at what is going on right now where people get shot for crossing barricades put up by protesters. Look at the conservatives that have been canceled from speaking at college campuses over concerns of violence. Remember when Berkeley had to cancel Milo Yiannopoulos after protesters caused over $100k in damage?

That is what I'm talking about. We live in a society where a sizable portion of our population cannot stand dissenting opinions to the point they react violently and many of them are unfortunately from my Millennial generation that I am a part of. 

yeah i was saying sometimes getting offended is reasonable and somethings we shouldnt tolerate.

and again there were plenty of that in the previous generations also especially against certain groups of people

i dont get how boomers say millennial are so easily offended when they get offended by certain people just existing LUL

[NZKshatriya]

Just gonna point out that bullying to a certain extent is a fact of live, a part of nature as a whole.

Being offended FOR other people is something that needs to stop.

Groups of people that know each other rib each other over personal issues all the time.

 

[5x5]

Yeah, I don't need comedy police to be offended for me. I'd you have an issue with the content, feel free to leave and not watch it. The vast majority of people couldn't care less about friendly banter that you deem offensive to your existence as, frankly, you're overreacting and making mountains out of valleys at this point.

[Loote]

I must say I'm happy with the response in this thread. Linus is not doing this to degrade Luke, it's visible that they have respect for each other and that's what makes mutual ripping harmless. I bet he wouldn't do this to someone he doesn't know, or he knows that person is vulnerable about the thing he'd want to joke about. When someone can't take a joke it's a sign for me to keep away from such person because sooner or later they're going to make drama out of nothing and I don't want to be a part of that.

[Hairless Monkey Boy]

@DaniIsAGoddess It is an immutable fact that joking about someone's disability, especially in a public forum, is rude and impolite. 

 

Some here seem to be confused so, the OP is not:

1. Offended on someone else's behalf.
2. "Cancelling" anyone.
3. Forcing anyone to say or do anything.

The general takeaway here should be this:

 

When it's just you and your friends, you do you. But when you are on camera or in a public forum you should try to be conscious of how what you say or do will affect other people. If you mess up that's fine, listen and treat it as a learning experience and try to do better (or don't and be judged accordingly). The purpose of the post, although admittedly murky, is to give well-intention-ed and otherwise uninformed people the opportunity to learn and grow and adapt their behavior to be more inclusive of others.

 

Pretty basic imo, and it is something that Linus, as a public figure, obviously does do.

[PlayStation 2]

Maybe it's because I come from a different mindset, but why bother with victimizing yourself with a stupid joke? It's words, move the hell on with your life.

[Lord Vile]

You can joke about anything or you can joke about nothing because no matter what you say someone will be offended by it. So if your argument is you shouldn't joke about something because you might offend someone then you can't joke about anything. 

 

As previously said the road to hell is paved with good intentions. 

[DaniIsAGoddess]

A common a counter argument raised is that people should have thicker skin. 
 

Take a second to think about what that actually means. Its okay to say hurtful things because they should be used to them. Thick skin comes from wounds healing and the skin thickening as a result. Call me crazy but shouldn't we be aiming to reduce pain, physical and emotional?

 

Also have you heard of the phrase the straw that broke the camels back? Thick skin only gets you so far. A single comment in isolation doesn't do a lot. Its the cumulative effect of many often from multiple people.

 

-----------------

 

I get, right now, people are feeling like they are having their right to speak and express themselves taken away without discussion without agreements without consideration. This is a problem, but I ask that you consider individual actions you are being asked to take. Take the time to consider others viewpoints as we should take the time to consider yours. For progress to happen we need to compromise, we need to compromise even if we're 100% right. Nobody should just be told what to do that isn't freedom that's fascism. This is why I tried to explain the problem with what had been said. It's why I posted it in a forum so that we can have a discussion about this and find a solution.

[Teddy07]

My god a little joke these days causes people to panic for days

[DaniIsAGoddess]

On 7/13/2020 at 9:47 PM, Kawaii Koneko said:

Maybe they should come and complain then instead of someone else. People are always complaining and being offended for someone else. I want to hear from the actual offended party, not someone else.

 

That's just what happens then. If people aren't familiar with the show and aren't aware of how long Luke and Linus have known each other than that's not really anyone's problem but the viewer. I think most people are quick enough on the uptake that they can figure out when something is actually an insult or a joke. I mean come on. Most people watching will see the interactions between them and realize they have a friendly relationship and will easily be able to figure out it was just a friendly jab based on the rest of their interactions.

Why should you be able to speak on this issue but not me? Any argument you have for me not having grounds to speak on the issue could be applied to you as well. I saw the complaint when linus mentioned it on the wan show. The responses I saw were in the chat. You can't have a proper discussion about this is issue in a livestream chat. That is why I made my response on the forum so we could engage in proper debate over the issue at hand. 
 

-

Luke hasn't been apart of LMG for some time it's reasonable for someone who has been watching LTT for a while to be new to the wan and not know the preexisting relationship their. LMG 100% wants to and is growing, as a part of that they are going to reach new people everyday. To not consider that in their content is A) bad business B) just inconsiderate, every single viewer of WAN had their first WAN. We shouldn't be punishing somebody for not being a long time viewer. I get where you are coming from, and I do not think linus was wrong to joke with luke in the way that he did. I was just trying to highlight the negative side which appeared to be overlooked. Linus is a very funny and entertaining person to watch and I think him no longer making deprecating jokes about Luke's dyslexia would ruin or change that. I therefore don't see much downside but I do see a huge benefit which is why I think this is a reasonable request.

[Beerzerker]

Geez.....

If Luke wants to be or feels offended I'm sure he is well capable of saying so himself without any help.

Let the guy do his thing over it or for him to let it slide - What he does should be the final say on the matter too.

 

 

[Toaster_Bloke]

12 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

Geez.....

If Luke wants to be or feels offended I'm sure he is well capable of saying so himself without any help.

Let the guy do his thing over it or for him to let it slide - What he does should be the final say on the matter too.

 

 

I don't remember him saying that Luke was offended anywhere, he's literally just making a point of saying that maybe disabilities aren't the best way to jokingly insult people on public streams. 

 

Also, far too many got offended so easily by this thread, its almost ironic 

[Beerzerker]

5 hours ago, Toaster_Bloke said:

I don't remember him saying that Luke was offended anywhere, he's literally just making a point of saying that maybe disabilities aren't the best way to jokingly insult people on public streams. 

 

Also, far too many got offended so easily by this thread, its almost ironic 

I don't remember such being said by Luke either but he doesn't need someone to be offended FOR him either.
It's his biz and his alone - Leave it to him to take care of it however he wants.

[Hairless Monkey Boy]

9 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

he doesn't need someone to be offended FOR him either.

 

On 7/14/2020 at 11:56 AM, HairlessMonkeyBoy said:

Some here seem to be confused so, the OP is not:

1. Offended on someone else's behalf.
2. "Cancelling" anyone.
3. Forcing anyone to say or do anything.

Too hard to read and come up with an actual counter arguement for what the OP is actually saying. Far too easy to construct a strawman to beat down instead.

On 7/16/2020 at 7:16 AM, DaniIsAGoddess said:

Take a second to think

Obviously asking too much.

[Beerzerker]

5 hours ago, HairlessMonkeyBoy said:

 

Too hard to read and come up with an actual counter arguement for what the OP is actually saying. Far too easy to construct a strawman to beat down instead.

Obviously asking too much.

 

Being dismissive about it does nothing either nor proves anything to the contrary and we're not talking about scarecrows being offended either.

It's Luke's thing and no one else's nor does anyone have a right to assume it.

Call it what you want, he's a grown, responsible adult that gets to decide whether it is offensive to him or not. What he decides is it as far as I'm concerned - End of story.

 

[Hairless Monkey Boy]

1 minute ago, Beerzerker said:

Being dismissive

My point exactly. You are being dismissive of the actual argument being made and continue to argue against a point that NO ONE IS MAKING.

[spartaman64]

guys we need to stop joking about intel being uncompetitive and running too hot or else some intel engineer might get offended. and linus needs to stop posting negative reviews 

[Rohith_Kumar_Sp]

Author of Fight Club : 
 

"people aren't censoring it because it offends them, they are censoring it because it'll offend someone they know, they are whiteknighting on behalf of someone else, David Sedaris told me some joke about a women in a wheelchair to an audience where no one was laughing because they were all looking at this women in the wheelchair and the moment she started to laugh the entire audience started to laugh" 

time coded :

 

[Beerzerker]

6 hours ago, HairlessMonkeyBoy said:

My point exactly. You are being dismissive of the actual argument being made and continue to argue against a point that NO ONE IS MAKING.

Then we are in agreeement - Maybe we are seeing it from different points of view, hence the "Arguement" but as long as it amounts to the same it's all good.

 

 

 

[Rybo]

Recommended reading: Jonathan Haidt. He wrote a book called "The Coddling of the American Mind."  

 

He posits that our culture of removing adversity from American life has been devastating for the people it was attempting to protect.  Like...well, pretty much every other part of the human body, the human brain must be exposed to risk and adversity to be equipped to deal with the realities of the world.  He likens it to the immune system: it requires constant adversity to remain strong, and in fact, must be forged early in life to fully develop at all (allergies are often the result of the immune system not being exposed to innocuous allergens early in life, for example).  

Thus, when we remove emotional adversity from everyday life, we're left with people who cannot handle the mundane adversities that are inevitable in life.  Unfortunately for us, he believes that these systems must develop in childhood to ever be fully formed.  Without them, we get into situations like this, where so called "microaggressions" -- things that normal people barely even notice being the victim of -- are given legitimate weight and consideration.  

tl;dr: just like exercise is creative destruction of muscles, so, too, are these minor emotional slights creative destructors of one's emotional state: they help people become more capable of handling stress and adversity.  

[DaniIsAGoddess]

On 7/17/2020 at 3:15 PM, Rybo said:

Recommended reading: Jonathan Haidt. He wrote a book called "The Coddling of the American Mind."  

 

He posits that our culture of removing adversity from American life has been devastating for the people it was attempting to protect.  Like...well, pretty much every other part of the human body, the human brain must be exposed to risk and adversity to be equipped to deal with the realities of the world.  He likens it to the immune system: it requires constant adversity to remain strong, and in fact, must be forged early in life to fully develop at all (allergies are often the result of the immune system not being exposed to innocuous allergens early in life, for example).  

Thus, when we remove emotional adversity from everyday life, we're left with people who cannot handle the mundane adversities that are inevitable in life.  Unfortunately for us, he believes that these systems must develop in childhood to ever be fully formed.  Without them, we get into situations like this, where so called "microaggressions" -- things that normal people barely even notice being the victim of -- are given legitimate weight and consideration.  

tl;dr: just like exercise is creative destruction of muscles, so, too, are these minor emotional slights creative destructors of one's emotional state: they help people become more capable of handling stress and adversity.  

Look at modern medicine, if we relied solely on the immune system then we would still be in the dark ages. We have actively eradicated diseases, we wash our hands and have sewage systems and water treatment. It's a great metaphor but you have to look at it properly, we're talking about cleaning our social environment as we try with our physical environment.

 

This is idea of over protection... its not a new concept its been around for millennia, it's called bad parenting. Its not exclusive to any culture or social class. I'd agree with you that bad parenting is, well, bad. You talk about being prepared for the realities of the world, its those realities we are trying to change one step at a time. 
 

"When we remove we remove emotional adversity in everyday life we are left with people who cannot handle mundane adversity inevitable in life" thats an oxymoron. If we have removed emotional adversity in everyday life then its not inevitable in life, and if it is inevitable in life then its not been removed from everyday life. Problems arise when people are used to a better environment than the one they are in. They arise in the transition to a better society. Everything is relative, as we remove larger problems the smaller ones seem larger. Also you have to acknowledge the concept of the straw that broke the camels back. whilst some reactions to 'micro aggressions' are as a result of their perception of being larger (There's a discussion to be had about where the burden lies but thats beyond the scope of this i feel) others are a result of a culminations of many 'micro aggressions'.

 

We also have to keep in mind the differences in backgrounds between people what some might describe as 'privilege'. Without the understanding of others experiences it is easy to misclassify something as a micro aggression. Just racial slurs were once considered normal and almost meaningless to the people that used them casually, derogatory language about people with disabilities is common place and often meant with no ill will to an individual of a community but still expresses negative views against the community as a whole.