Your next BMW might only have heated seats for 3 months

[straight_stewie]

So COAAS? (Car Options As A Service)

Screw that. If I pay extra money for a car with heaters in the seats, the seats had better heat up every time I push the button. <applies argument recursively to all possible features>

[Kawaii Koneko]

5 hours ago, VegetableStu said:

on a separate note: cars (as a freaking transport machine, mind you) should not keep going into "digitally leasing" or microtransactions of basic and hardware features.

Maybe they took a look at gaming and realized that despite everyone complaining about microtransactions, people still keep buying them. Personally, I don't think this will translate well to cars long term though.

 

4 hours ago, vetali said:

Gonna be interesting if the government steps in on this. It effectively kills off trim levels or options. You buy the car then unlock it later on giving the manufacturer the money. Its gonna take a big hit out of the governments profits from taxes.

I guess it depends on if your state or local municipality charges an excise tax or not and how this whole subscription model affects the value of the car. Will what would normally be an $80k BMW fully loaded still be priced at $80k with inactive options or will it be priced at $70k with possible subscriptions making up the difference? Or will BMW still charge the $80k? That is going to make big difference for how much excise tax your government can collect every year.

 

If they still charge the same price, the government won't lose any money when it comes to sales tax. If there is a discount, the government will still be able to tax the subscription and make money from that.

 

3 hours ago, D13H4RD said:

Welp, another reason not to buy overpriced luxury cars brand-new for me.

Idk if I would say they are overpriced. You aren't going to get the same experience you get from a Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, Jag, etc in a Ford or Dodge. I just think certified pre-owned makes more sense due to the insane depreciation of some of the aforementioned brands.

[HempBoosh]

22 minutes ago, Kawaii Koneko said:

Idk if I would say they are overpriced. You aren't going to get the same experience you get from a Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, Jag, etc in a Ford or Dodge. I just think certified pre-owned makes more sense due to the insane depreciation of some of the aforementioned brands.

In that case I should live my life in a way that I never drive a Lexus BMW, Mercedes, Jag etc. Sounds like they'll spoil regular driving for me. Next thing you know I'm selling my kidneys on the black market to afford the driving assist subscription for my fancy pants car. For me, cars are way to get from point A to point B while hauling more stuff than I can carry. Anything more than that is a bit contrived if you ask me.

[White Brownie]

6 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

Every single part seems to be developed by another team and patched together with tape.

Hmm gotta say I have a different experience with that. Family member owns a 2017 5er Touring and the software was one of the best for the time. Felt actually usable. But that might just be because it's a newer car? 

 

8 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

The problem with this is it's a BMW so the car is going to have to go into the shop after 3 months anyway.

Same thing here. There isn't any problem with the car so far, actually seems super reliable. BUT it was a brand new car and it is leased so if there is any problem down the line I will never know. That being said the Audi A6 he had before had a lot of problems in the time that we had it already.

[Kisai]

14 hours ago, White Brownie said:

Here comes the Linus told you so on WAN show moment: BMW seems to be taking the first real step towards "cars as a service" by making safety and comfort features optional to buy for a limited/permanent time period. 

 

 

 

The Manufactures can save money by not making 30 variations of trim, and then give you a "DLC" upgrade for features that would normally be factory-installed/dealer-installed features. That also means that end-users will just hotwire the features if they're not really controlled by the computer, just relays.

 

And the thing is, with things like heated seats, you probably don't want to make that a DLC feature, since if someone shorts the relay for it, the seats will not automatically turn off, and then the car will get a reputation for having heated seats that catch fire. 

 

There are of course features that are not tied to safety that can be done this way, like the GPS or Radio features, cruise control, autopilot-like features, and so forth. In some cases people don't want these features turned on because it's not how they want to drive (eg semi-automatic transmission, lane-keeping, auto-park, and such.)  My mom asked the dealership to disable the lane keeping on her car because it makes her try to over-correct her steering.

 

Without regulation on what features must be always enabled, you can completely expect all luxury brands to try this with entertainment features first, and then start pushing it down to the non-luxury models (eg features in Lexus finding their way into the Toyota vehicle built on the same platform.)

 

edit: I did have one possible theory if it's not regulated. Manufacturers/Repo/Towing/Law Enforcement using it as a way to immediately disable a vehicle.

[TOMPPIX]

the more news like this i hear, the more i would like to start studying law and crack down on shit like this. 

like this dude

 

[Soppro]

This reminds me of my old HP laptop with the HP Games service which expired after a few months ... disgusting

[Kawaii Koneko]

3 hours ago, HempBoosh said:

In that case I should live my life in a way that I never drive a Lexus BMW, Mercedes, Jag etc. Sounds like they'll spoil regular driving for me. Next thing you know I'm selling my kidneys on the black market to afford the driving assist subscription for my fancy pants car. For me, cars are way to get from point A to point B while hauling more stuff than I can carry. Anything more than that is a bit contrived if you ask me.

Haha, you're right about them spoiling you. I drive a 2004 Lexus LS430 with the Ultra Luxury package which is a fourteen year old luxury car and it has totally spoiled me. There are so many cars that I like but then I look at them and I see they don't have adaptive cruise or something like that and it turns me off. Hell, just a vehicle not having air conditioned seats is a turn off for me now. I have to remind myself that cars are more than that, especially when it comes to the interesting ones like the Fiat 500 Abarth, Miata, E39 M5, MR2 (any gen), etc. I mean, the E39 series is one of my favorite BMWs of all time and now I get turned off by them not having features on my Lexus despite the fact they aren't meant to be what my full size luxury sedan is lol.

 

I disagree though about these features being contrived. I think improving the automobile has been a natural evolution since the first one was invented. I think it is totally natural for luxury cars to exist in the way they do. I'm not talking about the subscription stuff but just the features in general. I think you are really missing out by just viewing the vehicle as a point a to b device, like some sort of trolley. You only live once so you might as well enjoy the best things in life that you can afford.

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

And the thing is, with things like heated seats, you probably don't want to make that a DLC feature, since if someone shorts the relay for it, the seats will not automatically turn off, and then the car will get a reputation for having heated seats that catch fire. 

I suspect we won't see it for things like that as they have become so standard on higher end vehicles these days.

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

There are of course features that are not tied to safety that can be done this way, like the GPS or Radio features, cruise control, autopilot-like features, and so forth. In some cases people don't want these features turned on because it's not how they want to drive (eg semi-automatic transmission, lane-keeping, auto-park, and such.)  My mom asked the dealership to disable the lane keeping on her car because it makes her try to over-correct her steeri

I can honestly see a justification for something like Auto Pilot, especially if it is using cellular towers for information or something like that. I'm not very familiar with Tesla's Auto Pilot but I know it is something that is constantly being developed and updates are sent to the car so it is kind of like service to begin with. I actually wouldn't be too upset if I had to pay a subscription for it... if I even had a Tesla lol.

 

1 hour ago, TOMPPIX said:

the more news like this i hear, the more i would like to start studying law and crack down on shit like this. 

like this dude

 

That was a great series. I watched it a few days ago and was pretty impressed with what an amazing job he was able to do. That said, what does this have to do with what we are talking about?

 

You should make a new thread about it as it would be pretty cool to chat about it.

[White Brownie]

11 minutes ago, Kawaii Koneko said:

I can honestly see a justification for something like Auto Pilot, especially if it is using cellular towers for information or something like that. I'm not very familiar with Tesla's Auto Pilot but I know it is something that is constantly being developed and updates are sent to the car so it is kind of like service to begin with. I actually wouldn't be too upset if I had to pay a subscription for it... if I even had a Tesla lol.

Very much agreed. As long as they are changing things for the better or are having ongoing costs (e.g. for online music services) I'm not mad if they pass it onto to consumer for a (and then there again there lies the problem:) reasonable price.

[Guest willies leg]

Meh, just turn back the clock on the car and add a block to the ntp server, you'll be all set

 

[Jito463]

So, this is basically BMW's version of horse armor DLC?

11 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

This is only one reason I plan to keep my car from 2005 until I cannot buy parts anymore, that and it's just before all the TPMS sensors, backup cameras, and a lot of other stuff became mandatory and created many more points of failure.

My pickup truck is from '93, and I don't plan on getting rid of it any time soon.  Partly because it's a manual, and finding a manual transmission vehicle is getting harder and harder.  Partly because my family has owned this since it was brand new off the lot, so it has some sentimental value.  And partly because I don't like the trend of how "smart cars" are going, so I prefer older vehicles that I am in control of, not the other way around.

[vetali]

6 hours ago, Kawaii Koneko said:

I guess it depends on if your state or local municipality charges an excise tax or not and how this whole subscription model affects the value of the car. Will what would normally be an $80k BMW fully loaded still be priced at $80k with inactive options or will it be priced at $70k with possible subscriptions making up the difference? Or will BMW still charge the $80k? That is going to make big difference for how much excise tax your government can collect every year.

 

If they still charge the same price, the government won't lose any money when it comes to sales tax. If there is a discount, the government will still be able to tax the subscription and make money from that.

 

It wouldn't be a big deal in Washington because there is sales tax. Other states possibly.

 

Logically to me they would charge a middle ground price of the trim levels allowing the subscription to make the difference. The only options you would really have is engine, AWD/RWD, and physical appearance options. Thats if its a one time purchase. I don't think thats the intent with BMW here. Every BMW dealer is loaded with CPO lease cars that have depreciated a ton. Adding a subscription model would mitigate that depreciation.

[staticpage]

As someone who owns a second hand BMW let me tell you how this goes night now. My car is a 335i Xdrive it came with base options, as the car is a heavy car (sticker says something ridiculous but I later found out that euro cars also include passenger weight and luggage on that sticker IDK why) I picked one without all extra options, with infotainment deleted from factory (700lbs savings). So the list of hardware it is missing is anything to do with the screen info display and the Adaptive cruise control radar scanner. So here is the thing the car also is missing many other options in the HUD that maxed out cars have silly things like, folding mirrors on key fob lock, auto up all windows while parked/on rain sensor, digital speed display, with no infotainment I can not set lock chime volume or enable or disable, headlight/running light dimming per individual light. For all/any of these options to be enabled I have to pay BMW a fee to "code new software" so my first visit to a dealer went like this "hey tech dude can you make my folding mirrors on key fob lock work?" That's $289. So I went home spent and entire weekend learning to code the ridiculous proprietary German language BMW code and did it myself. Also backed up my ECU and TSU then flashed performance software from the souped up 335gts and Alpina b3 mixed with some new shifting magic firmware that the SRT Hellcat has since the transmissions are similar in both cars.

 

Next dealer visit I'm actually nervous I have a hacked car with cut, copy & pasted code from their super rare GTS (only 500 made) what are they going to say?

 

Tech "The 20psi scramble boost feels amazing and that shift software is feeling nice what is that!?"

[vetali]

4 minutes ago, staticpage said:

As someone who owns a second hand BMW let me tell you how this goes night now. My car is a 335i Xdrive it came with base options, as the car is a heavy car (sticker says something ridiculous but I later found out that euro cars also include passenger weight and luggage on that sticker IDK why) I picked one without all extra options, with infotainment deleted from factory (700lbs savings). So the list of hardware it is missing is anything to do with the screen info display and the Adaptive cruise control radar scanner. So here is the thing the car also is missing many other options in the HUD that maxed out cars have silly things like, folding mirrors on key fob lock, auto up all windows while parked/on rain sensor, digital speed display, with no infotainment I can not set lock chime volume or enable or disable, headlight/running light dimming per individual light. For all/any of these options to be enabled I have to pay BMW a fee to "code new software" so my first visit to a dealer went like this "hey tech dude can you make my folding mirrors on key fob lock work?" That's $289. So I went home spent and entire weekend learning to code the ridiculous proprietary German language BMW code and did it myself. Also backed up my ECU and TSU then flashed performance software from the souped up 335gts and Alpina b3 mixed with some new shifting magic firmware that the SRT Hellcat has since the transmissions are similar in both cars.

 

Next dealer visit I'm actually nervous I have a hacked car with cut, copy & pasted code from their super rare GTS (only 500 made) what are they going to say?

 

Tech "The 20psi scramble boost feels amazing and that shift software is feeling nice what is that!?"

If its out of warranty theres not much they can say. I would be careful because often there is ECU update recalls for emissions that are automatically done when going to the dealer. If it has a modified ECU it could damage things if the update software picks up on it. With Hondas at my work its hit or miss depending on the type of car.

 

Thats actually pretty cool though. What year car and what equipment did you need?

[IntMD]

14 hours ago, Radium_Angel said:

I drove Italian exotics, the repair bills were cheaper.

I've had many friends who've had the misfortune of owning a used BMW. I've been in European car clubs that are mostly BMW/VW, and then there was me with my Alfas, yeah, I know what it costs to fix old Bimmers. Thanks, I'll pass.

 

11 hours ago, vetali said:

BMWs straight 6s have always been pretty solid. I am doing timing chains in my parents N20 right now. Not a fan of that engine. We have a F34 on our lot that I really like but it has a N20 also....

 

Gonna be interesting if the government steps in on this. It effectively kills off trim levels or options. You buy the car then unlock it later on giving the manufacturer the money. Its gonna take a big hit out of the governments profits from taxes.

I've had 2 E39s in the past. One was a 7yo 528i when I bought it, and one a 9yo 530i. They were both pretty much solid for most of the time I had them.

 

The 528 I had for 9 years, only changed the pads, tyres and a couple of oil changes and filters etc., nothing too much wrong with it & only really sold it when I went travelling the first time.

 

The 530i, I had for 7 years, only did pads, oil changes & filters too, plus a couple of things as below.

 

1. Water pump died (it happens, old car etc.), unfortunately, this happened when I was driving in the middle of nowhere and killed a couple of other things when it seized and the belt snapped with some nice force. Total cost approx $900 equivalent to get everything sorted at a BMW dealer. This happened about a week after I'd bought it, so wouldn't surprise me if the old owner knew it needed replacing and just didn't mention it. The car was cheap though and in great condition apart from that.

2. The controller for the traction control and stability management died. Known design flaw (thin gold wires inside it and placed far too close to the engine with no real heat shielding). Got a replacement from ebay for $120 equivalent, fitted myself and got the dealier to recode it to the car for another $40-50 or something so the traction control actually worked and didn't come up with the warning light.

 

Got rid of the 530i when the head gasket died and the car wasn't really worth me paying to get it fixed by then, and I wanted a new car.

[staticpage]

12 minutes ago, vetali said:

 What year car and what equipment did you need?

 

https://www.amazon.com/LZLRUN-Diagnostic-Interface-FT232RL-Programing/dp/B017IG81SQ

 

 

I think cars up to 2017 can be coded RN. I expect a full on aftermarket firmware for N54 powered cars (because they are basically a AWD I6 twin turbo poormans supra) in the near future just like Hondas got "chrome tuning" and "uberdata" in the 90s to replace their stock firmware, ah the good old days of burning Eproms to tune a civic.

[Yeroh]

Well, let's not buy BMWs then.

[The King of the Undead]

what the hell?

[vetali]

10 hours ago, staticpage said:

 

https://www.amazon.com/LZLRUN-Diagnostic-Interface-FT232RL-Programing/dp/B017IG81SQ

 

 

I think cars up to 2017 can be coded RN. I expect a full on aftermarket firmware for N54 powered cars (because they are basically a AWD I6 twin turbo poormans supra) in the near future just like Hondas got "chrome tuning" and "uberdata" in the 90s to replace their stock firmware, ah the good old days of burning Eproms to tune a civic.

Thats cool. I will keep that in mind if I decide to go with a BMW as my fun car.

[aisle9]

Your next BMW already needs a $4 part replaced, but it's going to cost $1,200 in labor because German engineering.

[AidyyJ]

5 minutes ago, Intel Fanboy said:

That's good because I don't expect them to even last any longer than 3 months considering how cheaply made BMW's are. LOL hahahahaha. Yeah I'm not buying a BMW because of their horrible build quality they are cheaply made with a ton of plastic crap and now they want you to pay a subscription to use the seats. I'm staying away from BMW 

You obliviously haven't ever owned one.

[SeDeller]

so honestly the only viable option I can see to this working is maybe discounting the new streamlined lineup as cars by 5k for the lower end cars and 10k for the more expensive ones and making the subscription make it be around that price by the end of the term of your contract, but I also agree this is to make more money after the first owner of said car and Luke not every car company will do this good sir even 20 years down the road there is always 1 company that will say "no subscriptions and will get tons of new customers" but subscription cars im not ok with i mean unless they wunna rent me a car for 250-500 a month and I "subscribe" that but at that point thats a lease right

[dizmo]

On 7/2/2020 at 1:54 PM, Drama Lama said:

I get the feeling you are less and less able to simply €&@#ing buy anything 

software, phones, games, consoles

and now even Cars

 

I think the trend is going too far 

You find it hard to buy phones or consoles? There's only a handful of consoles to choose from...

On 7/2/2020 at 2:44 PM, Trik'Stari said:

I'm just wondering how long it will take the tech/car enthusiasts to bypass this bullshit.

 

If I paid for it, and it's physically on the vehicle, I have every right to turn it on or off as I see fit.

 

"bUt YoU dIdN't PaY fOr ThE sOfTwArE?!?!?"

 

"Yeah no.... I don't have to pay you just because you built in a timed software switch that turns off. I'm just going to bypass the switch and give you a giant middle finger for being assholes"

Just because it's in the car didn't mean you paid for the feature though. Sometimes it's more cost effective to include everything in one unit, instead of making tons of different models. So, if Mr X wanted a car with these 8 options, he wouldn't have to go to a dealership in a different town to get it, it could simply be coded at the dealership. We'll see this model grow substantially with electric cars, especially with OTA updates becoming a thing.

 

If you didn't pay for the option, no, you didn't pay for it, regardless of if it's in the vehicle or not.

[mr moose]

On 7/3/2020 at 4:30 PM, Kawaii Koneko said:

 

Idk if I would say they are overpriced. You aren't going to get the same experience you get from a Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, Jag, etc in a Ford or Dodge. I just think certified pre-owned makes more sense due to the insane depreciation of some of the aforementioned brands.

I've driven plenty of mazda's and toyotas that shit on the bmw for quality and comfort.  Even the damned $2 hyundias are starting to give them a run for their money.

36 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Sometimes it's more cost effective to include everything in one unit, instead of making tons of different models.

 

Then they should give everyone all the features at a reasonable price and don't sell options or cap the rental to the basic feature price rather than gouge the consumer for eternity.  The "as a service" model generates the company more revenue over time so companies opting for "cheaper" manufacturing is not an excuse.

 

 

[Drama Lama]

4 hours ago, dizmo said:

You find it hard to buy phones or consoles? There's only a handful of consoles to choose from...

I exaggerated a bit ( should have written that at the comment )

but the general trend should be clear 

Adobe for example almost doesn’t offer any software for one time sale anymore