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VegetableStu

[Update] Apple discontinues Bootcamp for ARM Macs; Microsoft has no comment on Virtualised W10 ARM on ARM Macs

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Posted · Original PosterOP

NB: Rosetta 2 is not an emulator. all x86 apps that go through Rosetta are translated to the ARM64 instruction set before the app is openable on ARM macs


 

Update:

Quote

The Vergehttps://www.theverge.com/2020/6/24/21302213/apple-silicon-mac-arm-windows-support-boot-camp

 

“Microsoft only licenses Windows 10 on ARM to OEMs,” says a Microsoft spokesperson in a statement to The Verge.

We asked Microsoft if it plans to change this policy to allow Windows 10 on ARM-based Macs, and the company says “we have nothing further to share at this time.”

Apple later confirmed it’s not planning to support Boot Camp on ARM-based Macs in a Daring Fireball podcast. “We’re not direct booting an alternate operating system,” says Craig Federighi, Apple’s senior vice president of software engineering. “Purely virtualization is the route. These hypervisors can be very efficient, so the need to direct boot shouldn’t really be the concern.”

Quote

Macrumors (quoting The Verge podcast): https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/25/talk-show-wwdc-gruber-federighi-joswiak/


While avoiding direct mention of Windows, Federighi acknowledges that you won't be able to boot directly into x86 operating systems on these Macs. As it stands, Windows can't be directly supported on the Arm-based chips of ‌Apple Silicon‌ via virtualization, but Federighi made clear that Apple is well aware of the situation, without tipping his hand on what developments may appear on that front in the coming months.

... welp. 2 years for Apple is now 2 years for microsoft as well ._.

 

  • do not buy a mac if the program does not exist on macOS.
  • do not buy an intel mac for macOS11.

 

Spoiler

EDIT: additional "reading"

https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10686/

Quote
  • Apple SoCs will integrate their own GPUs
  • PCIe devices are still being hosted
  • PCIe devices now given their own separate memory IO unit, which means devices can't share each other's system memory pool
  • Apple SoCs run the ARM64 architecture, so i'm just going to keep calling them for what they are for now
  • ARM Macs are allowed to boot multiple installs of macOS environments of various generations, with a separate macOS recovery flow
  • each macOS install will have their own OS security policy under Apple ARM, contrasting intel with a system-wide singular security policy
  • Startup Options now evoked by holding the power button when machine is off, with GUI for specific options
  • "Target Disk Mode" now "Mac Sharing Mode" via sleeper environment over SMB
  • additional underlying system-restricted System Recovery partition in even that macOS Recovery itself fails to run 
Spoiler

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EDIT: APPLE ARM. JUST TAKE THE SPADE

 

source: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple_silicon/about_the_rosetta_translation_environment

via: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/06/23/rosetta-wont-support-x86-virtualization-windows/

 

Quote

Macrumors:

Rosetta is meant to provide developers with time to create native versions of apps, and there are a few limitations that are worth noting. As outlined in developer documentation shared this week, while Rosetta will be able to translate most Intel-based apps, it will not work with Virtual Machine apps that virtualize x86_64 computer platforms

oh boy, first Intel (possibly AMD Radeon), and now Microsoft. Apple literally divorced themselves from the PC hardware industry as a whole there o_o

Quote

Right now, Macs have a Boot Camp feature that allows Mac users to be run on them, but Apple has announced no similar feature for Macs equipped with Apple silicon. Kernel extensions also aren't able to be translated by Rosetta.

 

now the ball is in microsoft's court to decide if the windows userbase on macs are worth keeping up for. their only mode of remedy would be to port windows to a native ARM system that Apple's hardware stuff can understand, although the ease of that task could be argued for, since most linux VMs are still operable under Parallels (officially, at least)

 

personally, i'm using the windows side on my MBP less and less, but it's still no less a saving grace for the few times i actually need it. i wouldn't blame microsoft if they decide to not port over to Apple ARM stuff, but it makes me wonder if they would want a similar push as well on the hardware side (they've started porting to mainstream ARM anyway, so...)

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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, Ashley xD said:

Windows on ARM is a thing that exists. they could add support for that possibly. 

i guess we'll have to wait for microsoft to comment on Windows 10 ARM support then ._.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, nerdslayer1 said:

Also it's nice to see apple going toward the casual users crowd. ARM will give them better battery life, more control, cheaper build cost and overall more tailored experience. 

they're making it clear that they want to target workstation users as well, all with their demo of Maya on that A12Z mac

 

it'd be suicide for macs to be portrayed as iPads with a bigger keyboard

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4 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

they're making it clear that they want to target workstation users as well, all with their demo of Maya on that A12Z mac

 

it'd be suicide for macs to be portrayed as iPads with a bigger keyboard

Is serious workstation software being coded for ARM though?


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9 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

they're making it clear that they want to target workstation users as well, all with their demo of Maya on that A12Z mac

 

saw that. About that, "CAD on a mac" is a joke now.  Its more for casuals, you can buy a Mac mini with a Egpu or a cheaper windows PC that will outperform it. Hardware acceleration with the help of CUDA is a bit too much for some of us to loose. 

 

9 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

 

 

it'd be suicide for macs to be portrayed as iPads with a bigger keyboard

 Most mac users are not MKBHD editing 8k video. They are casual people who don't need much power but need something better than the Ipad OS. With the new Icons, they showed how Mac OS and Ipad OS are coming together having the same SOC, Icons and Apps. its perfect, for a casual high school or uni student going into English won't use power hungry pro apps.  

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Posted · Original PosterOP
4 minutes ago, nerdslayer1 said:

Most mac users are not MKBHD editing 8k video. They are casual people who don't need much power but need something better than the Ipad OS. With the new Icons, they showed how Mac OS and Ipad OS are coming together having the same SOC, Icons and Apps. For a casual high school or uni student going into English won't use power hungry pro apps.  

Apple would have to contend with the iPad Pro then

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Posted · Original PosterOP
16 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

Is serious workstation software being coded for ARM though?

that's their goal after the transition. now most workstation apps are probably being processed via Rosetta

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9 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

Apple wpuld have to contend with the iPad Pro then

Nope, ipad pro is still a limited tablet. Most users don't know that they want, so apple is bringing Mac OS to a less portable Ipad pro, giving it a more free OS. IMO its smart, showing the users how capable the hardware really is. Its one of the reason why Macs don't have touch screen. 

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1 hour ago, Ashley xD said:

Windows on ARM is a thing that exists. they could add support for that possibly. 

That is what I was thinking. I don't feel like it would be that much harder to just use that one and port it over.

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1 minute ago, wamred said:

That is what I was thinking. I don't feel like it would be that much harder to just use that one and port it over.

it should in theory just work unless apple did some proprietary crap with their chips that prevents it from working properly. 


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Just now, Ashley xD said:

it should in theory just work unless apple did some proprietary crap with their chips that prevents it from working properly. 

That does sound like a very Apple thing to do.

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 "What's a computer?" -Apple

 

Exactly. Apple hardware isn't a PC (Personal Computer). Apple could sell a gold plated abacus and people would still find a way to be upset about not being able to virtualize with it.

 

A walrus isn't a bird. Stop trying to make it something it doesn't want to be.

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15 minutes ago, wamred said:

That does sound like a very Apple thing to do.

true. 

 

 

10 minutes ago, StDragon said:

 "What's a computer?" -Apple

 

Exactly. Apple hardware isn't a PC (Personal Computer).

personal computer
 
noun
 
  1. a computer designed for use by one person at a time.

She/Her pls :) 

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Just now, Ashley xD said:

true. 

 

 

personal computer
 
noun
 
  1. a computer designed for use by one person at a time.

According to Apple, it's not a computer, it's an experience. And you're having it inside their own walled garden.

 

It's not as personal as you might expect.

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Just now, StDragon said:

According to Apple, it's not a computer, it's an experience. And you're having it inside their own walled garden.

 

It's not as personal as you might expect.

I mean, using a Windows computer is kind of the same thing just inside Microsoft's (which happens to be more open) garden.

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Just now, VegetableStu said:

Apple would have to contend with the iPad Pro then

But...iPad Pro is an Apple product...

"Apple would have to contend with the [Apple] then"

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Tim Cook once again detailing the company. The whole project will end in a colossal failure since most real "pros" actively use Bootcamp and VMs on a daily basis. Killing x86 and bootcamp will kill half of the professional user base outright.

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It's nice to see Apple taking themselves out of the market.

/jk

 

But seriously, it was expected when they announced their move to ARM.


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Well working towards being completely self-reliant is a smart move for the giant company. But as far as their product functionality goes, they seem to be trying to see how far they can push the consumer and get away with it.

 

Good luck to those who blindly suck up what Apple poops out


Awareness is key. Never enough, even in the face of futility. Speak the truth as if you may never get to say it again. This world is full of ugly. Change it they say. The only way is to reveal the ugly. To change the truth you must first acknowledge it. Never pretend it isn't there. Never bend the knee.

 

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41 minutes ago, StDragon said:

According to Apple, it's not a computer, it's an experience. And you're having it inside their own walled garden.

 

It's not as personal as you might expect.

you can customize macOS to the same extent as Windows... i don't see your argument here. 


She/Her pls :) 

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Can we stop using terms like "real work" and "real professionals" in attempted denotation of their actual end use.

 

Mac is less than 20% of the market.  It doesn't matter what people consider to be "real work",  there is a higher percentage using something else for that very job.

 

 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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Virtualization is a thing...


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2 hours ago, Ashley xD said:

Windows on ARM is a thing that exists. they could add support for that possibly. 

It exists, but it's terrible. If I remember correctly only 32Bit apps can be emulated? Basically no reason to have the dual boot option at that point. 


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