Tom's hardware does some interesting tests

[kirBi]

Tom's hardware posted today about their blind test results where they used devices ranging from $2000 DAC/amp to ~$2 Realtek ALC889 (integrated sound) coupled with HD800.

Hilarious results:

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733.html

 

I guess this provides more support for some of us?

[helping]

I'd have liked them to have matched the volumes better, but I guess they can only get so close due to differences in frequency response.

 

Good job Tom's, did stuff right.

 

So that's here, Tek Syndicate, and Tom's to verify, meanwhile Headfi

[Sors]

That Was Awesome.

 

" *facepalm*Inexcusably, this has to be one of the poorest (if not THE poorest) article I have ever read on Tom's Hardware."  

 

"But to dismiss the medium and high end audio gear as little better than the $2 onboard stuff is just absurd."  

 

" As a head-fi enthusiast myself, I can 100% assure you that are magnitudes of difference between your onboard sound card and what $2000 can buy. As a matter of fact, even at the $2, $200, $500, $800 price points, the difference in audio quality is *HUGE*. "

 

" These reviewers are deaf or have no idea how to listen to parts of songs which make it easy to distinguish between dacs "

 

Yeah this article is going to rub so many people the wrong way, kudos to Tom's Hardware.

[Ertman]

So this backs up TekSyndicate's point?

There are still those furrowing their brows in a vein attempt to understand this.

[helping]

So this backs up TekSyndicate's point?

There are still those furrowing their brows in a vein attempt to understand this.

More or less, yes.

 

They're obviously not the same indoctrination, but do have a lot of overlapping. Where Tek Syndicate made claims (mostly correct, some lost due to word choice not necessarily idea) Tom's is more of an investigation with support. 

 

Ofc golden ear, trained listener blah blah, but let's be real here. 

[ShearMe]

But Muh hi-fi

[h264]

It's basically what I've been saying for a while, not to mention what's been in the FAQ since day 1.  Excellent article.  Some of the comments are pretty entertaining.

[mr moose]

Well, what can I say?  I told you so seems a little childish but there really isn't much else to say with out it sounding like a veiled insult.

 

Here's something to get the naysayers thinking:

 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-459X.1996.tb00036.x/abstract;jsessionid=62079C392512115C9EC84007E44D16C0.f03t02?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

 

Although I do feel it might be a little too in depth for some people to understand. 

[elkenrod]

What did I just read?  Seriously.

[ShearMe]

Well, what can I say?  I told you so seems a little childish but there really isn't much else to say with out it sounding like a veiled insult.

 

Here's something to get the naysayers thinking:

 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1745-459X.1996.tb00036.x/abstract;jsessionid=62079C392512115C9EC84007E44D16C0.f03t02?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

 

Although I do feel it might be a little too in depth for some people to understand. 

 

What did I just read?  Seriously.

 

Dat Abstract is so abstract...

[LinusTech]

Fantastic article.

[Lyons]

But Muh hi-fi

 

b-b-b-b-but muh golden ears! Th-they can t-tell the difference!

[mr moose]

Dat Abstract is so abstract...

 

What did I just read?  Seriously.

 

Let me paraphrase in laymen's terms:

 

sensory perception ( in this case what we hear) is altered by expectation which is heavily influenced by product marketing and peer group status.  In other words what you hear is the result of what you expect to hear, which is governed (dedicated by) what you are told about the product. If everyone tells you that the xonar range is tinny sounding then people will actually start to hear it as being tinny, even if it is no different from any other device.   The biggest real world example of this is the soundcard being better than on board, the only reason people hear a difference is because they have been told it is better and so that is what they expect.

 

Essentially this paper (which has been cited 162 times by researchers and peers) tells us that confirmation bias is real.

[ShearMe]

Fantastic article.

 

>Comments in the Audio subforum

>Doesn't comment in the thread asking him a question

 

[elkenrod]

Fantastic article.

Next WAN show, you need to talk about this in greater detail.  Find that "sweet spot" for PC audio in the same way you talk about it in term of PC graphics card performance.  Please and Thank you.

[creatip123]

Let me paraphrase in laymen's terms:

 

sensory perception ( in this case what we hear) is altered by expectation which is heavily influenced by product marketing and peer group status.  In other words what you hear is the result of what you expect to hear, which is governed (dedicated by) what you are told about the product. If everyone tells you that the xonar range is tinny sounding then people will actually start to hear it as being tinny, even if it is no different from any other device.   The biggest real world example of this is the soundcard being better than on board, the only reason people hear a difference is because they have been told it is better and so that is what they expect.

 

Essentially this paper (which has been cited 162 times by researchers and peers) tells us that confirmation bias is real.

 

Perhaps half placebo effect, the other is the price effect. Because it is more expensive, therefore it has to be better, has to be....

[mr moose]

Perhaps half placebo effect, the other is the price effect. Because it is more expensive, therefore it has to be better, has to be....

yes, but both price effect and placebo effect describe the same phenomena.  Although there are technical differences, for all intents and purposes it is the same thing.  We hear what we expect to hear, if we are convinced it will be better then it will sound better to us, regardless of if it's better or not.

[elkenrod]

I'm still reading the Tom's Hardware article and I can't help but feel like I've been Checkmated.

 

Granted, this isn't the first time a website/person/group has made these claims.  It's just that the level of detail and the amount to documentation is just damning.  Bravo Tom's Hardware.

[TheProfosist]

Toms usually does a great job on their full articles and reviews, they do and have things no one else does or has. Their other stuff however has been taking a nose dive. Either way im glad you posted this as I was going to. Think of a dac sorta like a motherboard, your paying more for features. I am still glad that I have my Sound Blaster ZxR and my Essence One as they fit my needs perfectly.

[loony979]

 You feel bass from a subwoofer in ways a headphone can't match. Also, listening to high-end speakers well-separated provides a more immersive experience. Quote from that article.

 

So glad i use External Audio & I think external audio has to be more out there ,i mean headphones are getting all the attention these day .

Great if you can use them & like/love them fantastic no pun @Linus would you be interested in a youtube vid covering the External audio side of things or only headphones . Love my set up it's not massive expensive $$$ set up but it has quite the punch ...

 

I did start a topic on External ages ago but never took of. http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/102493-external-audio-solutions/?view=findpost&p=1370804

 

This is my Audio Solution for my PC set up .

 

I think im running over 500w RMS (Ill check in a second)  ,the Ashton PM-6300 Professional Powered Mixer only uses

the ( .1) in 5.1 sound so that's the bass output ,sounds & feels like an earthquake in here .

the ( .1) is coming from the Sony Receiver .

 

Ill try to explain it better :

PC - Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Professional Series - Sound Card Optical cable (Red Laser light)

to Sony Receiver then ( .1 ) output to Ashton PM-6300 Professional Powered Mixer.

The Towers i use are Boston Acoustics same with the center .

 

Total Exact output:

Ashton Amp = 550w RMS - 4 Ohm's

Sony Receiver = 210w RMS - 8 Ohm's

 

I never Dare to turn it up to Full Blast ,just to Loud ,maybe 45-50% 

As you can see i need to Vacuum the speakers again getting a bit dusty xdxd

 

If you do the math - it's incredible Bass & Clarity sound ,& Gaming/Movies omg i love it.

Sorry to any 1 that is a Headphone user ,but this is how i roll i only use a pair of

Headphones when im mixing my tunes. Hope you enjoyed .

[ShearMe]

Next WAN show, you need to talk about this in greater detail.  Find that "sweet spot" for PC audio in the same way you talk about it in term of PC graphics card performance.  Please and Thank you.

 

The "sweet spot" is your onboard audio. The article goes into plenty detail.

 

 

-snip-

 

The problem with speakers is using them at night when your parents are sleeping

[mr moose]

The "sweet spot" is your onboard audio. The article goes into plenty detail.

 

 

 

 

The problem with speakers is using them at night when your parents are sleeping

 

Unless you have a sound proof room

[BrightCandle]

I think the Tomshardware article debunks what Teksyndicate were saying. They were suggesting you need a high quality headphone amp like an O2 made by Mayflower and matched impedance otherwise the sound quality would be impacted. Whereas this review all but said that this isn't the case, that the Realtek chipsets are almost perfect for this. Admittedly there was some discernible difference but it seems to have been very slight. But as many others have mentioned they didn't test classical music, which is the one example that everyone else uses as the case where there is a more noticeable difference. Still its a great article for what it does.

 

But what I really really want is binaural surround sound testing. This is really needs in depth testing with blind directional testing being done so they can check the accuracy and such of the algorithms they are using.  I hope that Toms intends to do this as well.

[dylandylandylan]

The "sweet spot" is your onboard audio. The article goes into plenty detail.

 

 

 

 

The problem with speakers is using them at night when your parents are sleeping

 

Or in a dorm room full of high achieving students that like their sleep at night

My cherry reds are loud enough to keep them awake..

[ShearMe]

I think the Tomshardware article debunks what Teksyndicate were saying.

They did say somewhere at the beginning to "just use onboard" but Logan's a salesman and thus got carried away... :I