I may be rusty but at least my visuals aren't basic - stackoverflow publishes developer survey

[williamcll]

Stackoverflow recently published their developer survey where nearly 65000 were asked about various questions, including most liked languages, income and what they think of the site on February.

Quote

While developers don't always get to choose what they write code in, there are certain programming languages that they feel especially drawn to and want to go back to again and again. Rust has taken the top spot as the most loved programming language for the fifth year in a row. It's associated with high-paying salaries, too: Rust developers report a median pay of $74,000 globally and $130,000 in the US.

Another popular scripting language, python dropped from second to third, however, it is still the highest rated code in terms of people wanting to learn about it:

In order places, WordPress notably is rated the most dreaded platform to work with:

It is uncommon for developers to frequently work overtime:

Most developers work in medium to large companies:

And in terms of in the US and globally, the engineering manager might be the best paying job among IT firms:

For more information check the link below.

Source: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020

https://www.businessinsider.com/stack-overflow-developer-survey-14-most-loved-programming-languages-2020-5

Thoughts: As a CS student this certainly helps me to decide what might be a good path in the future. But with the pandemic still going as well as a global recession I am assuming thing will be different by the end of next year. I am also interested in why developers like some code more than the rest? Please answer the poll above.

[zeusthemoose]

Just curious, but why didn’t java make the list for your poll?

[williamcll]

21 minutes ago, zeusthemoose said:

Just curious, but why didn’t java make the list for your poll?

Added

[elfensky]

Where is php on your poll?

[3rrant]

28 minutes ago, elfensky said:

Where is on your poll?

Fixed.

 

 

Everyone hates it

 

 

 

[MyName13]

6 minutes ago, 3rrant said:

Fixed.

 

 

Everyone hates it

 

 

 

And yet most use it.

[waterfish]

3 hours ago, williamcll said:

 

 

Thoughts: As a CS student this certainly helps me to decide what might be a good path in the future. But with the pandemic still going as well as a global recession I am assuming thing will be different by the end of next year. I am also interested in why developers like some code more than the rest? Please answer the poll above.

Had to learn Java the same time as VB and I hated my life whenever I was near VB.  Even typing about learning VB makes me hate life atm.  So I ended up liking Java a lot more.  I was at EDC Las Vegas one time and some guy struck a conversation with told me how he loved Ruby on Rails and I'm like, dude we are at a concert with a quarter million people and you want to talk about how much u love Ruby?  A few lines and you have a full stack web page running, so it has it's  benefits i guess.  

It's weird, I liked Objective C more than Swift ... but that was the limited amount of time I spent on it.  And I hate Javascript, everyone hates javascript, but it pays well if you can get up high.

Also took a course on PHP once and really liked how simple it was, although I never used it again.

 

Also why no assembly in the pol ....

[SansVarnic]

-= Moved to General Discussion =-

 

Polls are not Tech News.

[FrankNX01]

To me VB rules here why : 

1. No need to end your line with ;

2. Not cAse SensitiVe

3. No endless confusion ...{{{}};{}}; hmmm do I still need to close one more?...

4. More "natural language" (ie. Dim apple As Fruit vs Var Fruit apple) Ok this one more is personal... 

5. It's part of .Net (Core) Framework. Power and Speed !!!

I'm actively coding since 1984... I've done them all (ASM, C, (C++ and #), Pascal, Cobol, Java, etc...)

 

 

[duncannah]

Typescript is essentially an extension of Javascript, I don't see why they were seperated in this poll

Adding both of them up would give 35.5% which would put it in first place

[Franck]

15 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I think this is news. It's news about the popularity of languages. It's news about which languages are the most used, the most wanted, the best paying, and so on.

Saying that this isn't news is like saying the election isn't news because "poll results aren't news".

 

This is data that has been gathered and now presented.

 

 

 

 

I am happy that Rust seems to be doing well. I am a Mozilla fanboy so I am happy that something they make is popular, but on top of that it seems like it's just a really good language... Once you can get your code to compile correctly.

 

Yes rust and python have gotten a huge bump is popularity. Although you do have different values when you filter out "hobbyist" from the survey and check actual work related. 78% of the respondent are hobbyist so this does represent that.

 

If you look at the top 10 languages on professional (non hobbyist) you have a good view of the market when come to want ot be paid to do so. Popular there usually translate to more job offers.

[BuckGup]

I like Java but it's a bloated language and performance is terrible. C is nice for embedded systems and drivers but you gotta know what you are doing to avoid issues. C++ is a nice compromise between C and Java which is why I like it. Python is just great and should be learned instead of Java in universities. Python is written on top of C so learning C and Python can be very powerful. Otherwise the rest tend to be towards mobile and web development which is it's own beast. 

[LAwLz]

2 hours ago, BuckGup said:

-snip-

I'm sorry, but where did you get those ideas from?

 

What do you mean by "C++ is a nice compromise between C and Java"? Other than being object oriented (not always for C++), they are very, very different. The similarities they have are only because Java was influenced by C syntax (and C++ was an extension to C).

 

The reason why you have to be careful with C is because of things like memory leaks. You don't have a garbage collector like in Java. C++ doesn't have a garbage collector either, so you have to be just as careful as when you write in C.

 

Why should Python be taught instead of Java? You thought Java was slow? Python is even slower. Python isn't meant for writing programs in. It's meant for scripting where you want to write something quickly and easily, without caring about performance. It is not something that should be taught as a primary programming languages in school, if you ask me. It serves a very different purpose than Java.

 

Python is not "written on top of C". Maybe you're getting Python confused with C++?

C++ is an extension to C. You can literally copy and paste C code into a C++ program, and have it compile, or take parts of a C++ program (that doesn't use any of the additional features like classes) and paste it into a C program and it will work.

Python is different in pretty much every single way from C.

[BuckGup]

49 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I'm sorry, but where did you get those ideas from?

 

What do you mean by "C++ is a nice compromise between C and Java"? Other than being object oriented (not always for C++), they are very, very different. The similarities they have are only because Java was influenced by C syntax (and C++ was an extension to C).

 

The reason why you have to be careful with C is because of things like memory leaks. You don't have a garbage collector like in Java. C++ doesn't have a garbage collector either, so you have to be just as careful as when you write in C.

 

Why should Python be taught instead of Java? You thought Java was slow? Python is even slower. Python isn't meant for writing programs in. It's meant for scripting where you want to write something quickly and easily, without caring about performance. It is not something that should be taught as a primary programming languages in school, if you ask me. It serves a very different purpose than Java.

 

Python is not "written on top of C". Maybe you're getting Python confused with C++?

C++ is an extension to C. You can literally copy and paste C code into a C++ program, and have it compile, or take parts of a C++ program (that doesn't use any of the additional features like classes) and paste it into a C program and it will work.

Python is different in pretty much every single way from C.

Python has changed a lot. It used to be mainly used for scripting but now people use it for web development, GUIs, and full stand alone programs. You can install python on pretty much anything and it doesn't require a java jdk to be installed on the machine. Java runs in a jvm which has it's pros but when considering the performance aspect of it will always fall short. Java is also so large you can now have two experienced programmers use it and not be able to recognize what the other is doing completely.

 

The standard implementation of Python is written in C. It's now referred to as CPython but if you know what you are doing you can get very low level and write in C for Python to use. Most people don't do this but if you need the best speed and latency it can be worthwhile. 

https://github.com/python/cpython

https://docs.python.org/3/extending/extending.html

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9451929/base-language-of-python

 

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Python has changed a lot.

Changed from what exactly? It's still the same language with the same pros and cons as before. Just because it is used more doesn't mean the characteristics has changed.

 

 

3 hours ago, BuckGup said:

You can install python on pretty much anything and it doesn't require a java jdk to be installed on the machine.

Well of course Python doesn't need a Java JDK to be installed. Just like Java doesn't require the Python interpreted to be installed.

 

 

3 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Java runs in a jvm which has it's pros but when considering the performance aspect of it will always fall short.

I don't think you know much about programming.

Python is a high level interpreted language. If you wanna talk about low performance, Python is it. Java performs BETTER than Python. It performs WAAAY better. Yes, technically Java runs in a VM but it's still compiled to byte code and the VM is very lightweight with very little overhead. It is significantly less overhead than running an interpreter is.

Here are benchmarks if you want to know just how much slower Python is than Java.

Java is not good when it comes to performance, but Python is even worse.

Program	Python	Java	Java performance lead
regex-redux	2.67	10.27	-74%
pidigits	2.39	1.83	30.6%
reverse-complement	16.41	3.27	402%
k-nucleotide	72.58	9.14	694%
binary-trees	80.82	8.28	876%
fasta	63.63	2.22	2766%
fannkuch-redux	494.58	16.12	2968%
mandelbrot	263.87	6.84	3757%
n-body	891.12	21.85	3978%
spectral-norm	170.10	4.15	3999%

 

Those are not typos by the way. Java really is around 3000% faster than Python. Of course it will vary from program to program, but I wouldn't be surprised if the average is somewhere around 500% performance increase from moving from Python to Java.

Python is NOT a high performance language. It is the exact opposite. It was designed to be easy to write simple programs and, easy to read code written in Python, and to be easy to learn. That's it.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Java is also so large you can now have two experienced programmers use it and not be able to recognize what the other is doing completely.

Yes, and? That's a problem with any language if the program grows large enough, and documentation is poor.

 

 

3 hours ago, BuckGup said:

The standard implementation of Python is written in C. It's now referred to as CPython but if you know what you are doing you can get very low level and write in C for Python to use. Most people don't do this but if you need the best speed and latency it can be worthwhile. 

I don't think that means what you think it means... The reference (and most commonly used) Python environment, with the interpreter and the likes, is written in C. Yes. That does NOT mean Python is based on C.

The Java HotSpot VM (the one in OpenJDK) is written in C++. That does not mean "Java is based on C++", although Java actually IS more based on C than Python is based on C.

What it means is that (for both Python and Java), the program that translates from the higher level language (Python or Java) to the lower level languages and OS calls, was written in C and C++.

The JavaScript engine in Chrome, and Firefox for that matter, is written in C. That does NOT mean "JavaScript is based on C".

 

 

Python is not based on C. Python is about as far from C you can get. They are different in pretty much every single significant way.

 

 

Also, the "extending Python with C or C++" you linked? That can be done with Java as well. That does NOT mean the Python language itself is powerful or what actually does those things. You can't say a language is "very powerful" because it can make calls to programs written in other languages.

 

 

I highly recommend you do research on these things before posting about it. It seems like you only have a vague concept of these stuff, and then fill in the gaps in your knowledge with your imagination.

 

[BuckGup]

45 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

snip

Differences hello? Python3 vs Python2 is a nightmare when it comes to backwards compatibility. Sure the language itself didn't fundamentally change but I assumed you knew that's not what I was talking about. 

https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/20988/why-is-python-written-in-c-and-not-in-c

https://www.quora.com/Is-Python-written-in-C-language-What-is-Cython-How-is-it-different-from-Python

https://teamtreehouse.com/community/why-are-some-python-libraries-written-in-c

Quote

"The most popular implementation of Python is CPython which is written in C - meaning that the interpreter is written in C"

I don't know how it's as far from C as you can get.

[colonel_mortis]

Please let's not make this an argument about which programming language is best - each language has pros and cons, and none is universally the best language. There are plenty of other things worthy of discussion in that survey. I've closed the poll, because it seems to be leading the discussion in a bad direction.

 

Moving back to Tech News.

[Blade of Grass]

5 minutes ago, colonel_mortis said:

Please let's not make this an argument about which programming language is best - each language has pros and cons, and none is universally the best language. There are plenty of other things worthy of discussion in that survey. I've closed the poll, because it seems to be leading the discussion in a bad direction.

 

Moving back to Tech News.

+1

PHP is def the worst though

[AnonymousGuy]

I'm over here helicoptering my dick with Perl.  I'm not a software dev but I end up having to parse through logs and data and shit a lot where Perl's regex ability slays Python.  

[ARikozuM]

I don't code, but is this representative of difficulty curve, ability, or what? 

[LAwLz]

8 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Differences hello? Python3 vs Python2 is a nightmare when it comes to backwards compatibility.

Yes but that has nothing to do with what I said, or with anything you have said. It's just a random tidbit of info you know. It's about as relevant here as "the sky is blue".

Also, Python 2 is EOL so you should only use Python 3.

 

8 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Sure the language itself didn't fundamentally change but I assumed you knew that's not what I was talking about. 

I honestly don't know what you are talking about. Almost everything you have said in this thread is fundamentally wrong though. Are you talking about Python 2 vs Python 3? Because that is irrelevant.

 

 

8 hours ago, BuckGup said:

https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/20988/why-is-python-written-in-c-and-not-in-c

https://www.quora.com/Is-Python-written-in-C-language-What-is-Cython-How-is-it-different-from-Python

https://teamtreehouse.com/community/why-are-some-python-libraries-written-in-c

Just because the interpreter is written in C does not make "Python based on C". Again, by the same logic you could say all languages are based on C.

"Java is based on C since the VM was written in it". "JavaScript is based on C since most JavaScript execution engines are written in C". "Python is based on C since the standard interpreter is written in C".

That's not how languages work. The interpreter is not the language. The execution environment is not the language either.

 

Python is NOT based on C.

 

 

8 hours ago, BuckGup said:

I don't know how it's as far from C as you can get.

Because the interpreter is not the language itself. If you don't understand the difference then I don't think I can help you. You need to learn more about the basics of programming.

Think of it as if you're preparing a meal.

You got some meat, vegetables and potatoes. You put the meat in a frying pan, the potatoes in a pot of boiling water, and the vegetables directly on your plate.

 

Meat, vegetables, potatoes, and the recipe - Your programming language. It tells you what you can do and how you can do it. If you for example add ice cream then you are not following the recipe and you'll have a disaster.

 

Frying pan, pot of boiling water and other cutlery - Your interpreter in the case of Python, and compiler in the case of languages like C.

 

Plate - Your OS

 

Finished dish - Your application you have written.

 

 

Saying that "Python is based on C" is like saying your meal is "based on iron and Teflon" because that's what the cutlery is made out of.

Your cutlery (the interpreter, CPython) is not the recipe or the finished meal (Python, and python program).

 

 

My guess is that you Googled "Python based on C" to try and find evidence of what you said, so I just did so myself. Here are some answers I found which says the same things I have been trying to tell you:

Spoiler

 Quora 1:

Quote

As you may know, it is a language that ultimately compiles down to assembly/machine code. ‘C’ has compilers to compile it. Compilers are just another programs written in some other languages.

Python: Python is an interpreted language which requires an interpreter (not a compiler). Think about the term ‘Python’ just as a set of language specification (syntax, grammars) and not the interpreter itself.

CPython: As I mentioned that language compilers/interpreter are just other programs, they can be written in any other language. It so happened that ‘CPython’ is a specific implementation of Python interpreter which is written in C. Remember, there are other implementations of Python interpreter written in Java (called Jython), C# (called IronPython), etc.

 

Stack Exchange 1:

Quote

Python is not a software at all. It is a specification. There are multiple implementations of that specification, written in multiple languages. IronPython is written in C♯, Jython in Java, PyPy in RPython, Pynie in NQP, PIR, and Perl6, Pyston in C++, CPython in C. The statement "Python is written in C" doesn't make sense. Python is not a software. It is a specification. It is written in English, not in any programming language. "Java is a derivative of C" is mainly wrong. Java is inspired by Objective-C, but it gets rid of most of the C parts and takes mostly the Smalltalk parts

 

Stack Exchange 2:

Quote

You can't say that Python is written in some programming language, since Python as a language is just a set of rules (like syntax rules, or descriptions of standard functionality). So we might say, that it is written in English :). However, mentioned rules can be implemented in some programming language. Hence, if you send a string like 'import this' to that program called interpreter, it'd return you "Zen of Python".

 

Since most modern OS are written in C, compilers/interpreters for modern high-level languages are also written in C. Python is not an exception - its most popular/"traditional" implementation is called CPython and is written in C.

 

 

-Other post-

 

Python is written in English. But there are several implementations:

• PyPy (written in Python)
• CPython (written in C)
• IronPython (written in C#)
• Jython (written in Java)

 

 

When people say a language is based on another language, they are talking about the syntax and functions of the programming language. Things like, is it object oriented? Is it a compiled or interpreted language? Is it a declarative language? How is memory management handled? For example does it allow for pointers? Does it have a garbage collector? What does the code look like when it is written? Is it a high level or low level programming language?

 

Those are the things people refer to when they say a language is or isn't based on another. Python and C are pretty much the polar opposites in every way I listed above. They have pretty much as little as possible in common.

 

Just because one implementation of one component used by Python programs is written in C does not mean the entire language is "based on C". If that was the criteria for being or not being based on C then pretty much every single language, including JavaScript and Java could be said to be "based on C", which they aren't (well, Java kind of is in some sense).

[LAwLz]

6 hours ago, ARikozuM said:

I don't code, but is this representative of difficulty curve, ability, or what? 

It's a survey where 65,000 different developers have answered a wide variety of questions related to programming.

This mostly questions like "What programming language do you want to keep working with?", "Which programming language do you want to stop working with?" and "Which programming language do you want to try working with?"

 

It gives a great insight into where the developer market (and world) is heading, as well as which languages might be valuable to learn.

[leadeater]

30 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

"What programming language do you want to keep working with?"

None, *job assigned to development team* 

 

30 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

"Which programming language do you want to stop working with?"

All of them, code writing can be infuriating and bad for your health. Someone willing to suffer write me a tool that makes it easier 

 

30 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

"Which programming language do you want to try working with?"

None I guess

 

Not that I'm a developer 

 

I'll stick to Anisble, Puppet and PowerShell and not because I specifically like those I just basically have to. I'll jump back in to C# if I have to or call a C# code block from PowerShell, a lot of things performance/speed wise in PowerShell is slowest thing on earth, but that's because I already know C# from having to learn it to get a degree.

 

Shout out to T-SQL though, I actually do like it. Any time a language brings in T-SQL like interpretation or syntax it makes me happy.

 

30 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

It gives a great insight into where the developer market (and world) is heading, as well as which languages might be valuable to learn.

Honestly if you aren't getting strictly in to application development for a software company or a company with very strong internal software development you're better off looking at languages that are best suited to data movement, manipulation and transformation as well as resource deployment and management (Platforms and Infrastructure). Most of the software development where I am is those as well as creating or customizing extensions to vendor software or creating data interfaces to link software together. A lot of software development in the business sector isn't to create applications that end users will use or ever see, there is a lot of web front end development though, lots and lots.

[straight_stewie]

7 hours ago, AnonymousGuy said:

I'm over here helicoptering my dick with Perl.

Ummmmmm wat?

I don't know much, but I'm fairly certain that's not what Perl is for.

[Helly]

I learned some python almost 10 years ago now (goddamn it, time flies), i didn't dislike it at the time but looking back, i'm glad to never work with it again. The only language i learned in school that i still use willingly is Delphi weirdly enough. I learned JAVA later which i liked a lot more at first but started to hate more and more as i worked with it.

 

People who hate javascript i feel are just using only pure javascript. Get a library like JQuery and you'll like it a lot more. That's how it usually is for me, get some libraries for a language to make ur life easier and you'll probably like it a lot more.

I used to HATE building websites with a passion. Now it's my job lol. Thank god i don't have to build em in PHP, i still hate that language.

 

Very glad to see people hate wordpress the most, that shit just need to go away.