AMD not supporting Zen3 on older motherboards :(

[Andk1987]

2 minutes ago, EChondo said:

1. AMD was very clear that the year 2020 was a cutoff, even since Ryzen 1000/300 series motherboards were first released.

2. AMD itself is not supporting Zen3 on older motherboards. They also didn't support Zen2 on older mobos, but you can still throw a 3950X on a A320 motherboard.

3. I don't see the problem here. This doesn't make all current Ryzen CPU's and mobos obsolete. Unless you're already on a 3950X, then you have an upgrade path with current hardware released.

 

I just bought a 3700X and a X570 Taichi late last year. I don't plan on upgrading until Ryzen 5000. I see Ryzen 4000 being a very weird middleman between current offerings and DDR5/PCIE5. So I'd rather not invest in Ryzen 4000 so soon with a much newer platform 1-2 years out from right now.

yeah i get it man, just a little disapointing when it is most likely possible and was one of AMDs strong points that they stuck on the AM4 platform where you could put a ryzen 3000 on practically any of the AM4 motherboards, i get why, money is king at the end of the day

[Curufinwe_wins]

10 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Sure.  That doesn’t necessarily make it ok this time though.  I dunno.  What is clear is that this announcement kills b450 before b550 is even out.  There currently IS no motherboard with a potential upgrade path at this moment besides x570 which is kinda awful.  They’re both really expensive and not very good at the more reasonably priced end.  The thousand dollar motherboards don’t really effectively exist for the vast majority imho.  Those things are for industrial workstation systems.  This is about AMD taking a year longer than intended to get b550 out and then trying to make the consumer absorb the damage.

 

If b550 had actually been on the market for three or four months even this wouldn’t be a thing.

No, I agree  and I'm not happy about it. AM4 motherboards in general are a lot more expensive than I'd hope, which seriously dampens the budget proposition. 

 

I guess it just doesn't surprise me as being usually crappy.

[AlTech]

AMD has a chart outlining the changes. So far I only see the Athlon, 3200G, and 3400G folks being screwed over.

 

[Neftex]

if they take away the upgradeability, then theres no reason to get amd platforms for gaming anymore. you get better performance on intel and you still have to replace cpu and motherboard next gen with both vendors

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, MageTank said:

They are not making anyone "absorb the damage". You are not owed backwards compatibility. New hardware doesn't automatically make your current hardware perform worse (Unless it's RTX, or Gameworks in general... wink wink). You still got what you paid for. Unless your product was explicitly advertised with support for Zen 3 processors, you were not mislead or deceived in any way. A company cannot be at fault simply because you assumed this backwards compatibility train would never stop, nor can they be blamed for "forcing computers to absorb the damage" when innovation requires moving forward. AMD cannot keep introducing new features if they have to constantly cater to the compatibility of older chipsets. Eventually we'd end up seeing what we did on X299 with those Babylake 7740/7760X's, where half of your DIMM slots can't be used, half of your M.2 slots can't be used, and half of the PCIe slots can't be used, except this time it could be worse as it would likely be disabling features on the CPU, not the ancient board you slotted it into.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how AMD bends over backwards to give people backwards compatibility, but the moment it comes time to move forward, people give them grief for doing so.

The difference between explicit and implicit.  Yeah, heard that one before.  Can and should are also different things.  

[Andk1987]

1 minute ago, MageTank said:

It never ceases to amaze me how AMD bends over backwards to give people backwards compatibility, but the moment it comes time to move forward, people give them grief for doing so.

except there really isnt any reason to cut off the 4xx/3xx boards, 5xx will be the last AM4 boards, that would have been "the perfect time" to call it quits and cut support, not when youve just forced anyone to use the older revision chipset because they didnt release a B550 on zen2 launch, which made it impractical to purchase £200 mobo (even if you could find one) for a £190 cpu, and at the time it was thought that those boards would be compatible until the end of the AM4 socket support, which Zen3 is...... this is AMD making a hard cut because theyre caving into thier board partners to force everyones hand on buying B550 or X570 boards because they can, and people wont mind because likely Zen3 will put AMD very much on top of the competition and not just "close" like they are with Zen2

[Doobeedoo]

Many forget it was stated, by 2020 support, which it was held really. Also, the BIOS chip size capacity limit being the issue too, it seems that depends on motherboard OEMs though, we've seen newer revisions of some boards released the twice the capacity for support. Also, who knows, it is possible that maybe some OEMs choose to make specific BIOS releases that cut legacy support and have variety of them available by need.

Still, in future for a new platform much larger BIOS chip capacity should be a thing. Like make it 128MB for example.

[mrthuvi]

Ah yes, great news. My tomahawk max arrived today. With this level of luck I think I can go out breaking quarantine without getting that beer virus.

 

[Andk1987]

Just now, Doobeedoo said:

Many forget it was stated, by 2020 support, which it was held really. Also, the BIOS chip size capacity limit being the issue too, it seems that depends on motherboard OEMs though, we've seen newer revisions of some boards released the twice the capacity for support. Also, who knows, it is possible that maybe some OEMs choose to make specific BIOS releases that cut legacy support and have variety of them available by need.

Still, in future for a new platform much larger BIOS chip capacity should be a thing. Like make it 128MB for example.

the support was for the AM4 socket, not for the architecture support, Zen3 will fit in 5xx series motherboards which are AM4, this is AMD and its board partners forcing people into buying new motherboards because the performance of Zen3 will likely put them on top for everything and people will pay it, whilst those who bought a 4xx series bord for Zen2 launch beecause X570 was impractically expensive to match up with a 3600 for example, are now not able to upgrade to the next architecture.

[Andk1987]

3 minutes ago, mrthuvi said:

Ah yes, great news. My tomahawk max arrived today. With this level of luck I think I can go out breaking quarantine without getting that beer virus.

Lucky lad, looks nice

[EChondo]

5 minutes ago, Andk1987 said:

yeah i know, ive got one, what im saying is when you bought a 3600 on launch you really didnt have an option, X570 boards simply werent in stock and even if they were they cost more than a 3600 and one of the big selling points of AMD is/was multi generation cpu support, and for them to cut that out from under you is a bit shitty imo.

 

I agree here. This was an absolute mess for B550 release. I'm pretty disappointed AMD/mobo vendors dropped the ball hard here.

 

I know AMD wants to stop the perception of being the "budget" option, but when literally everything released for a new CPU lineup is nowhere near budget offerings, you've messed up big time.

 

3 minutes ago, Andk1987 said:

yeah i get it man, just a little disapointing when it is most likely possible and was one of AMDs strong points that they stuck on the AM4 platform where you could put a ryzen 3000 on practically any of the AM4 motherboards, i get why, money is king at the end of the day

Again, it is a shitty thing that has happened no doubt about it.

 

I'm sure behind the scenes they had everything in a solid project roadmap and expected to be able to offer full AM4 support for the full lineup, Ryzen1000/ABX300 to Ryzen4000/BX600, but technologies change and sometimes change fast.

 

I think the better approach here for AMD would to have been to come out around Ryzen 3000's release and inform everyone that they probably won't be able to meet prior expectations for AM4 support through Zen1-Zen3 and explained in a good tone why this is happening.

 

Now we have everyone pulling up 3 year old articles and scrolling through Twitter trying to catch AMD in some double-speak and it's bewildering since many of us saw this coming since Ryzen 2000 that this was a possibility.

 

It sucks, but we'll have to wait and see what Ryzen 4000 offerings are and if it justifies a full CPU+Mobo upgrade or if most of us can wait for Ryzen 5000.

[Grabhanem]

1 minute ago, Andk1987 said:

except there really isnt any reason to cut off the 4xx/3xx boards, 5xx will be the last AM4 boards, that would have been "the perfect time" to call it quits and cut support, not when youve just forced anyone to use the older revision chipset because they didnt release a B550 on zen2 launch, which made it impractical to purchase £200 mobo (even if you could find one) for a £190 cpu, and at the time it was thought that those boards would be compatible until the end of the AM4 socket support, which Zen3 is...... this is AMD making a hard cut because theyre caving into thier board partners to force everyones hand on buying B550 or X570 boards because they can, and people wont mind because likely Zen3 will put AMD very much on top of the competition and not just "close" like they are with Zen2

There is a reason, they've said that reason. It's the same reason they can't support bristol ridge on newer bioses. Chipset memory. There's already 59 different processors on this platform with a wide variety of cache and core layouts, adding another full lineup would very quickly fill up the available space.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if motherboard mfrs find a way to add zen3 support to older boards. The chart also claims that zen2 shouldn't work on 1st gen chipsets, but it definitely does.

[Blademaster91]

18 minutes ago, MageTank said:

It never ceases to amaze me how AMD bends over backwards to give people backwards compatibility, but the moment it comes time to move forward, people give them grief for doing so.

There reason to cutoff support for X470/B450 is weird, sure the 16MB bios limitation is on the motherboard companies for cheaping out on flash chips, but if there could be enough cuts to be made to have zen 3000 cpu support on older boards,then I don't see why it can't be done with X470/B450 boards. The people that bought the B450 boards because B550 got delayed should be upset and give the same grief people give Intel for cutting chipset support sooner than they should.

[AlTech]

7 minutes ago, Andk1987 said:

except there really isnt any reason to cut off the 4xx/3xx boards, 5xx will be the last AM4 boards, that would have been "the perfect time" to call it quits and cut support, not when youve just forced anyone to use the older revision chipset because they didnt release a B550 on zen2 launch, which made it impractical to purchase £200 mobo (even if you could find one) for a £190 cpu, and at the time it was thought that those boards would be compatible until the end of the AM4 socket support, which Zen3 is...... this is AMD making a hard cut because theyre caving into thier board partners to force everyones hand on buying B550 or X570 boards because they can, and people wont mind because likely Zen3 will put AMD very much on top of the competition and not just "close" like they are with Zen2

Truthfully, a lot more goes into making things compatible than just that.

 

AMD has already pissed off Motherboard OEMs by forcing them to buy larger memory chips than for Intel motherboards. Motherboards can only support a finite number of CPUs because of the size of the memory chips that the BIOS reads.

 

One of the reasons that the 300 series boards don't officially support Zen2 is cos the motherboard guys ran out of storage on their memory chips. So the only way they can add 3rd gen support is taking away support from already supported CPUs.

 

2 minutes ago, Andk1987 said:

the support was for the AM4 socket, not for the architecture support, Zen3 will fit in 5xx series motherboards which are AM4

Yes and No.

 

IIRC 500 series is technically AM4+ and not AM4.

[Andk1987]

Just now, Grabhanem said:

There is a reason, they've said that reason. It's the same reason they can't support bristol ridge on newer bioses. Chipset memory. There's already 59 different processors on this platform with a wide variety of cache and core layouts, adding another full lineup would very quickly fill up the available space.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if motherboard mfrs find a way to add zen3 support to older boards. The chart also claims that zen2 shouldn't work on 1st gen chipsets, but it definitely does.

then cut support for the Zen1 cpus? reduce graphical elements in bioses? create a firk in bios updates? there are alot of options available to pull this off other than AMD sinply drawing an arbitrary line in the sand when the motherboards and all of rhetoric and selling points for the platform pointed in the opposite direction.

[Raptor_Fawr]

I hope it too because I built a computer to a friend of mine 4 months ago and I told him that he will surely be able to upgrade his processor

 

 

EDIT: he still can, there are several options for him already but since he is willing to spend a lot of money randomly sometimes he could have gone for the new Zen3 if AMD supported it

[Curufinwe_wins]

24 minutes ago, MageTank said:

I don't get why so many people are disappointed by this. This is a good thing. We do not need another AM2/AM3 repeat where backwards compatibility holds back on innovation. At some point, people have to understand that they need to buy a new board in order to make use of new features. Backwards compatibility is fine and all, but it should not last forever, and in the computer hardware industry, even 1 year is enough to make a dramatic difference in feature development. The fact that AMD gave people 3 years on one platform is a miracle in and of itself. 

 

2 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

Many forget it was stated, by 2020 support, which it was held really. Also, the BIOS chip size capacity limit being the issue too, it seems that depends on motherboard OEMs though, we've seen newer revisions of some boards released the twice the capacity for support. Also, who knows, it is possible that maybe some OEMs choose to make specific BIOS releases that cut legacy support and have variety of them available by need.

Still, in future for a new platform much larger BIOS chip capacity should be a thing. Like make it 128MB for example.

 

 

So end of the day, as I stated before I don't really think this is a *huge deal*, but there is very valid reasons to complain about lacking support when there is no realistic reason support cannot be added via bios (the bios chip being too small is straight BS, even if you had to pick and choose supported processor sets). Just like people complaining when Intel doesn't even change the pinout and forces a new motherboard series, ofc people complain.

 

I have no problem whatsoever (as discussed by me above) when AMD does decide to move to a new socket killing all support. I mean ofc they would. Why wouldn't they? I likewise appreciate that they have stayed on the same socket for so long. But since Zen 3 is the same socket as Zen 2, and apparently Zen 3 isn't going to be DDR5 exclusive or anything (since 500 series mobos are still supported) there is not a physically valid reason to support 500 series boards and not 400 series ones. I also have no problem saying that the boards must have certain features (like for example 125W processor support), but the indications are not that that is what AMD is doing here either. 

 

Finally the biggest issue as @Bombastinator rightly pointed out... B550 hasn't even arrived yet. If B550 had been out from the start of Zen2 that would be a very different situation. But they haven't been available so people would naturally be forced to buy B450 or X4/570, which means they get the double slap from not being able to choose in the first place. and X570 motherboards are flipping expensive. (until you get to the mid-high end where it isn't THAT much more than the equivalent, but the entire bottom of the market disappeared).

 

 

 

Again, if AMD was moving to AM5, none of these complaints are relevant. But they clearly are not since 500 series boards are supported at all. 

[AlTech]

3 minutes ago, Andk1987 said:

then cut support for the Zen1 cpus?

They can't. They (the motherboard guys) have an obligation to AMD to support any Zen1 CPU on any mobo before 500 series.

 

They would get in serious trouble with AMD if they did cut Zen1 support on those.

 

They already cut Stoney Ridge out of 300 series and newer to make room for new stuff.

[Neftex]

1 minute ago, AluminiumTech said:

They can't. They (the motherboard guys) have an obligation to AMD to support any Zen1 CPU on any mobo before 500 series.

 

They would get in serious trouble with that if they did that.

 

They already cut Stoney Ridge out of 300 series and newer to make room for new stuff.

they can cut support in a different bios release and have 2-3 concurrent bios versions

[Doobeedoo]

4 minutes ago, Andk1987 said:

the support was for the AM4 socket, not for the architecture support, Zen3 will fit in 5xx series motherboards which are AM4, this is AMD and its board partners forcing people into buying new motherboards because the performance of Zen3 will likely put them on top for everything and people will pay it, whilst those who bought a 4xx series bord for Zen2 launch beecause X570 was impractically expensive to match up with a 3600 for example, are now not able to upgrade to the next architecture.

I did meant AM4 yeah. I doubt it's the forcing thing like the next gen will be so vastly better, really, depends what OEMs do, they can support it, though probably a headache way to make multiple BIOS packages since the BIOS chip capacity is so small. Also, not sure why anyone would buy second gen board for third gen proc, and then upgrade within a year for a next gen CPU which is not a big jump, yet money dump. I got X570 Elite really cheap. Really anyone already on any AM4 boards, especially that don't need to upgrade, or already have higher tier CPU are more than fine performance wise. The new AM5 really will be a new upgrade that is worthy to put money into.

[Andk1987]

Just now, AluminiumTech said:

They can't. They have an obligation to AMD to support any Zen1 CPU on any mobo before 500 series.

 

They would get in serious trouble with that if they did that.

 

They already cut Stoney Ridge out of 300 series and newer to make room for new stuff.

theyre not cutting support if they still provide a bios for those cpus that can be installed on the motherboard, theres ways of doing it, or simply leaving it to the board manufacturers to make up thier minds if they want to support Zen3, but this sucks ass that AMD seem to be just straight up cutting support for this when it is likely very possible to do for alot of motherboard manufacturers on alot of thier motherboards, theres alot of X570 motherboards what must support Zen1 chips also that have 16mb bios memory which makes this all a bit of a shitty argument for why.

[NumLock21]

12 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

..and at least several earlier boards afaik, though it takes wiggling.  Might be wrong about that one, but I’m hearing evidence to the contrary on this thread.

 

getting 3xx boards to accept zen3 this I don’t see as something AMD is beholden to do.  Making it work on b&X 4xxx  boards on which it is possible to make work on though?  That they might be beholden to do.  That might be just the max boards and maybe only some of them. It might not even include them, I’m not totally familiar with the technical aspects.  The extra year it took to get b550 out though is not the fault of the consumer who bought b450 on assurances from the company.  Technical comes first though I suspect.  If the code can’t be made compatible with even the larger bios sizes of max (which afaik is the big difference between max and non max) the chip performance should not be adulterated to make it possible.

I think AMD also supports 2 gen of cpu per chipset or I’m wrong on that.

 

11 minutes ago, Andk1987 said:

yeah i know, ive got one, what im saying is when you bought a 3600 on launch you really didnt have an option, X570 boards simply werent in stock and even if they were they cost more than a 3600 and one of the big selling points of AMD is/was multi generation cpu support, and for them to cut that out from under you is a bit shitty imo.

AMD didn’t really locked their Ryzen 3000 series cpu from those who have a B450 or x470 chipset board. It can still be used just like you have mention, since you got one. X570 just adds pcie 4. This on the other hand, will have to see what happens when people can get their hands on one. AFAIK b500 won’t be available until mid June 

[Andk1987]

1 minute ago, Doobeedoo said:

I did meant AM4 yeah. I doubt it's the forcing thing like the next gen will be so vastly better, really, depends what OEMs do, they can support it, though probably a headache way to make multiple BIOS packages since the BIOS chip capacity is so small. Also, not sure why anyone would buy second gen board for third gen proc, and then upgrade within a year for a next gen CPU which is not a big jump, yet money dump. I got X570 Elite really cheap. Really anyone already on any AM4 boards, especially that don't need to upgrade, or already have higher tier CPU are more than fine performance wise. The new AM5 really will be a new upgrade that is worthy to put money into.

this is why everyone is up in arms, from what was said to hardware unboxed it seems that AMD will be locking 3xx/4xx chipsets out of being supported in the AGESA bios code they release to motherboard manufacturers like they did when they blocked PCIe 4 on compatible 4xx motherboards

[EChondo]

3 minutes ago, Neftex said:

they can cut support in a different bios release and have 2-3 concurrent bios versions

Even though this would be the best option at the current moment, it'll unfortunately never happen.

 

Most vendors can't even update a single BIOS in under 3-4 months. There's no way they'll have 2-3 concurrent releases of a BIOS for a single motherboard.

[AlTech]

Just now, Neftex said:

they can cut support in a different bios release and have 2-3 concurrent bios versions

That's not practical for them. It would cost too much to maintain several different bios versions. Not to mention how do you even go about telling buyers what package to use depending on their CPU and it just gets very messy.

 

Ultimately the long term solution is A) motherboards need larger memory chips for the BIOS (which would make motherboards more expensive) and B) greater transparency about what is and isn't supported and for how long that support lasts.