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Andk1987

AMD not supporting Zen3 on older motherboards :(

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2 minutes ago, Warin said:

Pretty much.

To be fair, I think making a break between chip generations by using a new socket architecture isn't always a bad thing.  For instance, I am not really bent out of shape that the board I bought for my 8th generation i5 won't handle the new 10th generation CPUs.  

TBH, the CPU's don't even appear to be a true upgrade from the 8th gen series, so that gives even less of a reason to be annoyed about the socket change.


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7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Because in other slides they talk about chipsets and their compatibility. Sure if you put your blinders on and ignore all other information this might make sense but it doesn't. Because like I said chipset support has already been unrelated  to architecture road map, for a long time, so it's your mistake for doing so.

 

Why? When it was already a problem covered in great detail for Ryzen 3000. If you forgot then there is nothing I can do about that, truly nothing.

It was a problem with some bioses due to size, AMD played down the problem and still supported the boards allowing the creation of bios updates that worked around the problem,  from that the only thing a consumer can know is that zen3 will still be supported and may require a special bios update.  But that is AMD providing support, here they are claiming they will not provide support for pre x5xx boards. 

 

You see the problem,  in all issues earlier there were work arounds because AMD provided support for those chipsets,  now they are claiming they will not provide support for those chipsets.  There is no longer official support for AM4 boards as they originally claimed and until now they never stated their intentions to can that support.

 

7 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

That's Gen 3, not Ryzen 3. We're currently on the 3rd generation of Ryzen with the 3000 series.

Yes I got confused, between people calling it gen 3 and posting pictures about 3rd gen and not zen 3.

 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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I foresee a lean streak for mid-high end ryzen until b550 arrives and is available.  MSI and a few board partners may have legal difficulties.  AMD may be able to help them somewhat or not.  AMD should survive it and be back at it again.   They’ve seen themselves through worse.  It’s a body blow but not a knock out.


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4 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

TBH, the CPU's don't even appear to be a true upgrade from the 8th gen series, so that gives even less of a reason to be annoyed about the socket change.

Well, I understand why they went with LGA1200, as a means to better support sata 4.0.  They just didn't necessarily need to pack a *Lake cpu into the new package, other than to make people buy new mobos.  Which is a little rage inducing :D

 

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On 5/8/2020 at 6:50 AM, Tristerin said:

I feel confident I could push a stock 3950X on my ASRock board with no issues, due to the testing Ive done on the board (not recommending it, but I think it wouldn't be a problem either) - that's insane value for a socket imho

Agreed! Those of use who bought into AM4 in the Zen and especially the Zen+ era (since B450 is a little more stable than B350/X370) are getting a lot of added value if you consider that our now 2 year old ~$70-120 boards will be able to slot in a 3950X two years from now when they are ~$200 for a monster value upgrade.

 

I do see some frustration for the people who bought into B450 for Zen 2, since the upgradeability is now marginal (more cores, but similar per-core.) The upgradeable value of the board has offered less, but frankly... A B450 Max board has been sub $100 since they launched, and a 3600 isn't going to fall off for a few years in gaming performance. So QUIT YOUR BITCHIN! :P 

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So, I was upset about this at first. I bought a crosshair vii fully expecting to drop in a 4000 series upgrade.

 

However, I think Zen2 ultimately will be the biggest performance upgrade on AM4. So, when Ryzen 4000 releases, I'll try and nab a 3950x for half off.


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I'm confused at peoples confusion over this. AMD said AM4 would be supported for zen3 but they never said anything about chipset support for existing boards to my knowledge. I originally thought x570 was the end of support for the first 3 generations and zen3 being a new architecture it would be a new chipset again but as linus explained on the WAN show it's a lot more complicated to support all those chips from a bios standpoint even with a bigger bios chip.


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24 minutes ago, XenosTech said:

I'm confused at peoples confusion over this. AMD said AM4 would be supported for zen3 but they never said anything about chipset support for existing boards to my knowledge. I originally thought x570 was the end of support for the first 3 generations and zen3 being a new architecture it would be a new chipset again but as linus explained on the WAN show it's a lot more complicated to support all those chips from a bios standpoint even with a bigger bios chip.

So the socket will be there but you can’t use it nyaa nyaa nyaa.  like that’s reasonable. 
 

This isn’t the problem really.  People believed, a few of them got damaged.  Not real badly. Myself I wasn’t t damaged because I didn’t buy.  I almost did. I intended to, but circumstances prevented it from happening.  I believed though. Myself I’m just embarrassed and I feel bad for people I told wrong.   There were a lot of people doing it as well, of course.  I wasn’t the only one who believed. I fell for it.  Such things happen.  What’s irritating is the people that did know carefully did not say so.   


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To avoid this problem in the future, I hope board manufactures adds a 1TB bios rom chip.

 

/s


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7 minutes ago, NumLock21 said:

To avoid this problem in the future, I hope board manufactures adds a 1TB bios rom chip.

 

/s

The bios is just another instance of Windows


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1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

So the socket will be there but you can’t use it nyaa nyaa nyaa.  like that’s reasonable.

Well part of it is the problem that we all still think in the 'Intel ways'. This is also why Intel does prefer to change the socket so it can't be confused.

 

I do think back in 2016 AMD had every intention for every chipset to support all architectures on AM4, even if not all processors but at least most of them. But back in 2016 AMD still had a bad rep and board vendors were still very weary of putting money in to a platform with no proof it was actually going to sell well and zero brand reputation to back it. So you make it cheap to lower your risk and with how busy AMD would have been I would find it very hard to believe they would micro manage board partners down to the BIOS chip size, that's not their wheelhouse.

 

Now that we know it's a problem and everyone's gone 'oh shit' there is little that can be done. Lets also not forget about the problems AMD had giving support during Ryzen 3000 launch for chipsets that were intended to be not supported but board vendors insisted on providing support so AMD backed that. This forced AMD in to a position of supporting their CPU customers that had product combinations that didn't actually work, Ryzen 3000 CPU upgrade kits for free. This was likely a logistical nightmare and very costly too.

 

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/295027-amd-will-provide-a-free-temporary-uefi-upgrade-kit-for-ryzen-3000-motherboard-updates

 

This is why it baffles me how easy everyone forgot about these problems during the Ryzen 3000 launch, it was a huge damn problem.

 

Somtimes your partners let you down and there is nothing you can do about it, sometimes you don't know they have until years later. You just have to do the best you can with the situation, if that means the same as Ryzen 3000 situation or no support at all then that is what it is. Go bitch to board vendors for having no faith during a time when there was no warrant for them to, because FX did them no favors.

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Just now, Arika S said:

The bios is just another instance of Windows

Not Windows, but Asus board did have something back then called Express Gate, which is a Linux OS that runs off the build in flash drive or from the users HDD.


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54 minutes ago, leadeater said:

AMD had giving support during Ryzen 3000 launch for chipsets that were intended to be not supported but board vendors insisted on providing support so AMD backed that.

Got a citation for that, Because if they never intended to support 3000 series on some AM4 boards then they are worse than I was calling them out for.   Because it is pretty hard to argue that given all the marketing they had no intention of supporting even that.

 

 

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

What’s irritating is the people that did know carefully did not say so.   

Just curious if you are talking about people in the industry or us forum plebs.  Every time I recommended an AM4 I made sure to caveat that future upgrades are not guaranteed and you should buy for it's current performance and value.   I bought a B350 for myself confident that the 3600 would work.  Turns out I came mighty close to being burnt even though I was aware this would happen eventually.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Got a citation for that, Because if they never intended to support 3000 series on some AM4 boards then they are worse than I was calling them out for.   Because it is pretty hard to argue that given all the marketing they had no intention of supporting even that.

The links I already provided saying Beta BIOS support, because not all board actually got BIOS updates for it.

 

And again directly caused by board vendors, go bitch at them, they are the cause. AMD cannot go around saying platforms support a product when they in fact do not, no amount of wishful thinking will change that. AMD could say A320 supports Ryzen 3000 all day long but if board vendors don't or can't do it that is worse than saying A320 can when reality hits real products can't. That is by far worse.

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18 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The links I already provided saying Beta BIOS support, because not all board actually got BIOS updates for it.

 

And again directly caused by board vendors, go bitch at them, they are the cause. AMD cannot go around saying platforms support a product when they in fact do not, no amount of wishful thinking will change that. AMD could say A320 supports Ryzen 3000 all day long but if board vendors don't or can't do it that is worse than saying A320 can when reality hits real products can't. That is by far worse.

So it was intended to be supported by AMD?  the way you said it I read as meaning AMD did not intend on supporting it. 

 

 

 

 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So it was intended to be supported by AMD?  the way you said it I read as meaning AMD did not intend on supporting it. 

What I said in the entire post was that in 2016 I bet that was the intention, then board vendors made products, AMD started releasing new products (APUs etc) and new architectures and the AGESA binaries started getting really big, it would have been at that point that AMD realized that their partners have products that cannot fit the new AGESA binaries so support was originally not going to be offered. Board vendors still wanted to find a way as they had tons of existing stock in supply channels and if they didn't support Ryzen 3000 then that entire stock would have been essentially worthless.

 

So would you burn all your board partners or would you find a way to support them when you need every sale and gain as much market share as you can?

 

As it is right now A320 is dead because it does not support Ryzen 3000, it was the cheapest chipset on the cheapest products and nobody want to spend the time trying to do anything with it. X370 and B350 on the other hand were still selling and people brought more premium options of these on the idea of long term support, compromised by insufficient BIOS sizes that went unnoticed at the time.

 

In 2016 AMD did intend to support everything.

In 2019 AMD did not intend to offer support for Ryzen 3000 on X370 and B350

In 2019 AMD allowed board vendors to selectively offer support for Ryzen 3000, labeling this Beta.

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9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

In 2016 AMD did intend to support everything.

In 2019 AMD did not intend to offer support for Ryzen 3000 on X370 and B350

In 2019 AMD allowed board vendors to selectively offer support for Ryzen 3000, labeling this Beta.

Non of your earlier links actually show AMD telling people that they intended to drop support for anything at any time other than what we already knew for beyond 2020.

 

All of those articles claim AMD had every intention of supporting the 3000 series down to B350 (as per their original plan).  In fact they don't even say that AMD was reluctant not to support down to the 320, but lacking any information on that I won't go there.

 

So what we have is, AMD promising a all ryzens up to and including zen3 to work on all AM4 motherboards throughout 2020 (they did not mention chipsets or make any caveats/footnotes stating exceptions).   Board manufacturers then had issues with bios size,  AMD came in and offered the support they promised yet didn't making any mention of dropping support for future products moving forward.  Now they are dropping support for a product they previously said they would support and they clearly knew this was going to be a problem over a year ago (as I said right back at the start), but did nothing to set the record straight or update their roadmaps to reflect this. 

 

 

What us consumers saw:

 

All ryzens (including zen3) will work on all AM4 motherboards till the end of 2020.

Some motherboards had issues, not intentional and there were updates meaning with  he exception of the 320 AMD kept their promise and everything was good.  Nothing more was said about CPU support on AM4 or their roadmap until now after many have bought B450 boards to find out that zen 3 is not supported on the boards they were told they would be supported on.

 

 

 

 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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What's that? I don't have to spend money on my B450 rig? Keep my 2700X it does plenty for me??

 

Yea, they can't get my money if I can't use my current motherboard. Oh well, sucks to be them. 


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I've decided to wait for Zen 4 to upgrade for this reason. I do need a CPU upgrade, but I really want upgrade paths. Zen 3 is going to suck there, because Zen 4 will both use a new socket and new RAM.


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4 hours ago, NumLock21 said:

Not Windows, but Asus board did have something back then called Express Gate, which is a Linux OS that runs off the build in flash drive or from the users HDD.

Unfortunately, that couldn't be updated...so the internet is barely useable in it anymore (it was integrated directly on the motherboard). The internet now works better on my windows 98 machine than Express Gate.


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3 hours ago, mr moose said:

Non of your earlier links actually show AMD telling people that they intended to drop support for anything at any time other than what we already knew for beyond 2020.

What company ever has given details about products not announce or released yet? We got this because someone took the time to ask and they actually got an answer.

 

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

All of those articles claim AMD had every intention of supporting the 3000 series down to B350 (as per their original plan).  In fact they don't even say that AMD was reluctant not to support down to the 320, but lacking any information on that I won't go there.

As I said the original intention was to but it just wasn't possible. If you actually think limited Beta support is actual full support from AMD then you don't understand the term Beta support. I can tell you right now near or actually zero OEM systems with B350 chipsets will have a BIOS update to allow Ryzen 3000.

 

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

(they did not mention chipsets or make any caveats/footnotes stating exceptions).  

Yes they did, since 2019 when problems started showing.

 

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

yet didn't making any mention of dropping support for future products moving forward

Again no company ever goes. If you can take a hint from existing observable things happening I can't help you. A320 has no Ryzen 3000 support, many B350 have no Ryzen 3000, a number of X370 have no Ryzen 3000 support.

 

It should come as no surprise using known offical already released information that the same problem for the same reason would on future products. No crystal ball is required here, we know why it's a problem so we know it is going to be a problem.

 

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

All ryzens (including zen3) will work on all AM4 motherboards till the end of 2020.

No you are now changing the statement to fit your point, this was not what was said. What was said was AM4 support until 2020, not the end of. The wording AM4 is also important here because while I know what their intentions likely were they 100% worded it in a way to make sure if there were any problems this would still be true.

 

All was never used neither was end of 2020.

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And just for sake of completeness here is an Intel architecture road map

2020%20cooper.png

 

Completely devoid of anything about chipsets because these slides, like AMD's, have nothing to do with that when talking about architecture road maps.

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I may be lucky by pairing a 2700X ( i bought for 150$ ) with an X570 mobo.

Just because i wanted to have future support for pcie 4.0.

I and i wanted to do it the weird way ... i ended up flexing on my friends :D 

tho i don't need pcie 4.0 but i just bought it ..... ( and i can't use it with the 2700X)

But tbh AMD did a hell of a job maintaining compatibility, remember that they were the underdog all the way back in 2016 .....

Also the first gen ryzen mobos were trash compared to intel motherboards, they weren't DESIGNED by the motherboard manufacturers to be future compatible, they thought the it was another bulldozer.

 

I was angry when i heard this ( tho i don't have a reason myself), but now i realized that it's harder than i thought ...

maybe AMD wants to push clock speeds next gen, or do some overwhelming design changes to achieve that ... 

As zen 2 hits a hard limit at 4.2-4.3 GHz.

And zen 2 chips ain't aging anytime soon, they can last 8yrs + ( u can grab a 3950X or 3900x for cheap, just like 2 gen ryzen , or even older intel cpus on ebay, remember 8 cores for 150$ video ?) 

looking back at my C2D machine that still runs windows 10 fairly well (with an SSD) and which is 12 yrs old..... with a crappy intel mobo, i guess CPUs are lasting much longer than they used to be. 

remember the jumps from PII to PIII to PIV?  especially security instruction sets ...

u couldn't run windows 7 on PIII , it was HORRIBLE compared to now ...

but after C2D cpus started to last much longer ...

and following that pattern, i guess zen 2 cpus will last for another 12 yrs ...

maybe not AAA titles all the way .. maybe 6 yrs of AAA gaming then esports and normal use ...

Sandy bridge CPU started to have problems running AAA titles only recently :D 

No need to whine about this ! 

 

 


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21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

What company ever has given details about products not announce or released yet? We got this because someone took the time to ask and they actually got an answer.

Which was contrary to their marketing claims.

 

21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

As I said the original intention was to but it just wasn't possible. If you actually think limited Beta support is actual full support from AMD then you don't understand the term Beta support. I can tell you right now near or actually zero OEM systems with B350 chipsets will have a BIOS update to allow Ryzen 3000.

And I can understand when things go wrong and it's not intentional, but dropping support for zen3 on B450 is intentional as far as we know.

21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Yes they did, since 2019 when problems started showing.

Link to them saying that or you are just assuming that because there were problems people would automatically assume that meant all support was off?

21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Again no company ever goes. If you can take a hint from existing observable things happening I can't help you. A320 has no Ryzen 3000 support, many B350 have no Ryzen 3000, a number of X370 have no Ryzen 3000 support.

 

There is a difference between not being able to do something and deciding not doing something,  The problem there is that some boards can't do it as opposed to AMD just choosing not to do it and more to the point they didn't bother announcing that earlier (when they could have).  It's not up to the consumer to workout from a few board failures that future support promises will no longer be kept.  That just defies logic.   If they promise it will work then it is only logical to believe it will work , that is until they say otherwise,  they didn't say otherwise.

 

21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It should come as no surprise using known offical already released information that the same problem for the same reason would on future products. No crystal ball is required here, we know why it's a problem so we know it is going to be a problem.

Got some evidence it won't work on B450?  So far we haven't got jack shit official information from AMD on this.

 

21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

No you are now changing the statement to fit your point, this was not what was said. What was said was AM4 support until 2020, not the end of. The wording AM4 is also important here because while I know what their intentions likely were they 100% worded it in a way to make sure if there were any problems this would still be true.

 

Again look at the road map.  the 2020 is clearly after zen3.  AM4 is the ryzen socket that AMD have been marketing as supported.   It is not a natural conclusion to assume anything beyond zen, zen2 and zen 3 will work on all AM4 motherboards until the end of 2020.

 

Hell that's what every damned post in every thread on the subject has been saying since 2016.  We only found out this week that wasn't true.  Are you really going to argue that when majority (honestly the largest majority) of tech enthusiast all believe that that is was an assumption on all our parts and that we all bent the meaning of their marketing for 4 years just so we could complain now?  

 

21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

All was never used neither was end of 2020.

AMD-Zen_3.jpg&key=f3232dc74d9a2c8b8b7391

 

If you read that as zen 3 not released until the end of 2020 then do you also read that as zen not being released in 2018?

 

Zen was released at the start of 2017 which means if you follow this roadmap zen 3 should be during or before 2020,  we don't have it yet, The slide is clearly marketing and they made it look  like it was coming earlier than it will, but even if you take that slide to it's absolute it still says zen3 before 2020 and thus on the AM4 supported til 2020 promise.   None of us like marketing and we all know it's 90% BS, but I am not going to pretend it doesn't exist or doesn't or that it should be ignored.  AMD said support til 2020, they said zen3 before 2020, It 's right there, the only logical conclusion is that we get zen3 on AM4 during 2020.  Unless they can;t but the problem is they should have come out and rectified this information last year, not when pushed by media.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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36 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And just for sake of completeness here is an Intel architecture road map

2020%20cooper.png

 

Completely devoid of anything about chipsets because these slides, like AMD's, have nothing to do with that when talking about architecture road maps.

Intel also never claimed socket support for any length of time. 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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