AMD not supporting Zen3 on older motherboards :(

[leadeater]

16 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Even gigabyte think B450 will support gen3, so it's not just MSI.  If the board manufacturers think it will be supported and roadmaps say it will be, and AMD haven't said anything to anyone until now that it won't,  why should anyone assume it won't work?

3rd Gen Ryzen is Zen 2 not Zen 3. That is saying Ryzen 3000 CPUs are supported, not Zen 3 Ryzen 4000. Yes these names suck hard.

 

1st Gen Ryzen = 1000 series based on Zen 1 architecture 

2nd Gen Ryzen = 2000 series based on Zen+  architecture 

3rd Gen Ryzen = 3000 series based on Zen 2 architecture 

4th Gen Ryzen = 4000 series based on Zen 3 architecture (what this is about)

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Information from June 2019.

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/ryzen-3000-ready-chipsets-overview.html

 

And gain in November 2019

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-3000-does-motherboard-support

That shows that from the B350 an up they were supported, now they are claiming they are only supported on x5xx.  Not sure why you think this means it was always never supported when your picture clearly shows even in 2019 they intended on providing support.

 

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And then multiple different reviews also covered and showed compatibility problems during the release/reviews of Ryzen 3000. And this page existed before B550 but has since been update, the information about compatibility issues with Ryzen 3000 (Zen 2) was and is still on there, https://www.amd.com/en/chipsets/x570

Incompatibility due to what we were told were unexpected issues (bios size)  but there were work arounds.  This still leaves the consumer believing that AMD themselves were supporting those CPU's on that platform.

 

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

AMD put out as many warnings as possible that chipset and processor compatibility were problematic and reviewers covered why it was a problem, BIOS and AGESA size. If it was a problem in 2019 why would it not be a problem in 2020?

Problematic but still supported.  There is a difference between supported and not supported,  having issues is not the same as not being supported.  Not being supported means the company will not put any effort into making it work.

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Who says it would be blocked? You don't know and I know AMD has not said it will be blocked. How about we keep assumptions down to a minimum and work off what companies have actually said or details on official information released by them.

It says not supported in the article,  Linus said the AGESIA would be written to prevent it from working in the WAN show (maybe I misheard that bit).  But the end result is still the same:

 

These are facts:

End consumers were told by AMD that Gen3 would work on AM4 in 2020

End consumers were told (and still are being told) by board manufacturers that Gen 3 will work on B450

 

End consumers should not have to make assumptions about unwritten support caveats or unwritten technicalities regarding chipsets.  AMD never said anything about chipsets, they only said it will work.

 

Now,  I predicted this (to a degree), I have been saying for a long time that there will be trouble and it wont turn out the way people think, I am not ignorant to any of it really.  But the problem here is not the technicaltuities but the lack of any communication from AMD regarding their support.  Especially when you have roadmaps and marketing claiming support for B350 (with specific bios) and now they won;t support anything below x5xx.

 

 

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

That shows that from the B350 an up they were supported, now they are claiming they are only supported on x5xx.  Not sure why you think this means it was always never supported when your picture clearly shows even in 2019 they intended on providing support.

No you've just confused 3rd gen Ryzen 3000 with Zen 3 which is 4th Gen Ryzen.

 

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

End consumers were told (and still are being told) by board manufacturers that Gen 3 will work on B450

Because 3rd Gen is Ryzen 3000 and is supported, this is not about 3rd Gen it about Zen 3 architecture.

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

3rd Gen Ryzen is Zen 2 not Zen 3. That is saying Ryzen 3000 CPUs are supported, not Zen 3 Ryzen 4000. Yes these names suck hard.

 

1st Gen Ryzen = 1000 series based on Zen 1 architecture 

2nd Gen Ryzen = 2000 series based on Zen+  architecture 

3rd Gen Ryzen = 3000 series based on Zen 2 architecture 

4th Gen Ryzen = 4000 series based on Zen 3 architecture (what this is about)

 

 

AMD clearly claim "3rd generation AMD ryzen processors" as working on B450

Board manufacturers clearly list "support for 3rd generation Ryzen processors"

 

If this whole thing boils down to a miscommunication then I am afraid the end results will be the same and the blame lands firmly on AMD still.  They are the one choosing the nomenclature and the marketing material.

 

 

[leadeater]

Just now, mr moose said:

AMD clearly claim "3rd generation AMD ryzen processors" as working on B450

3rd Gen Ryzen is supported!

 

Zen 3 is not 3rd Gen Ryzen!!!!!!!!

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

No you've just confused 3rd gen Ryzen 3000 with Zen 3 which is 4th Gen Ryzen.

 

Because 3rd Gen is Ryzen 3000 and is supported, this is not about 3rd Gen it about Zen 3 architecture.

Why are you posting roadmaps that do not cover the Gen 3 ryzen when that is the topic of discussion?

 

The roadmap I presented clearly show Zen 3 on AM4 in 2020.  That can not be argued does not exist.

Just now, leadeater said:

3rd Gen Ryzen is supported!

 

Zen 3 is not 3rd Gen Ryzen!!!!!!!!

ZEN 3 is clearly shown in the roadmap to be working on AM4 in 2020

 

Does making it bold and big help comminucate?

 

Like yelling slowly at people when they speak a different language does not improve communication.

[leadeater]

Literally read everything I just posted again with the correct understanding of what 3rd Gen Ryzen is, now can you understand that chipset and processor compatibility information was known and provided by AMD in 2019. So again if it was a problem in 2019 why would it not be in 2020? Why assume 4th Gen Ryzen would work in B450 when we have been and been told, officially, that no all chipsets officially support all processors.

 

Information about these issues has existed, for almost an entire year. Why is it now suddenly a surprise it's also going to be an issue with 4th Gen Ryzen?

 

This is all I have to say on the matter. Nowhere has support been promised on a chipset and architecture road maps have never told you what will work on which chipset.

[mr moose]

23 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Information from June 2019.

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/ryzen-3000-ready-chipsets-overview.html

 

And gain in November 2019

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-3000-does-motherboard-support

 

And then multiple different reviews also covered and showed compatibility problems during the release/reviews of Ryzen 3000. And this page existed before B550 but has since been update, the information about compatibility issues with Ryzen 3000 (Zen 2) was and is still on there, https://www.amd.com/en/chipsets/x570

 

AMD put out as many warnings as possible that chipset and processor compatibility were problematic and reviewers covered why it was a problem, BIOS and AGESA size. If it was a problem in 2019 why would it not be a problem in 2020?

Going back a bit to try to bring some clarity to this,  The posts here do not show zen3,  they do not give us any information that zen3 will not work on specific motherboards.  There is no way for the consumer to glean any information regarding zen3 compatibility from those articles. This is  the silence from AMD on future product support they have already claimed will work.

 

All the end consumers knows is that Zen 3 is supposed to be supported throughout 2020.  Regardless of bios size issue.

 

 

 

 

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Why are you posting roadmaps that do not cover the Gen 3 ryzen when that is the topic of discussion?

Because you are posting things as evidence which are wrong because you're confusing 3rd Gen Ryzen and Zen 3 to back your argument. This is wrong and you didn't understand the difference at the time.

 

And the point is like I keep saying chipset and processor support issues have been known since 2019 and has been official information from AMD. Officially not all chipsets support all processors and that has been true since 2019.

 

It requires bolding because you were ignoring the critical, extremely important information that actually does matter.

 

As I have been showing you your assumptions have been wrong and have ignored existing official information, you're assumptions and not paying attention to existing compatibility matrix got you here.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

 

 

Information about these issues has existed, for almost an entire year. Why is it now suddenly a surprise it's also going to be an issue with 4th Gen Ryzen?

 

 

It's not suddenly a surprise as I said earlier:

 

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Now,  I predicted this (to a degree), I have been saying for a long time that there will be trouble and it wont turn out the way people think, I am not ignorant to any of it really.  But the problem here is not the technicalities but the lack of any communication from AMD regarding their support.  Especially when you have roadmaps and marketing claiming support for B350 (with specific bios) and now they won't support anything below x5xx.

 

 

 

Even if you take out all my specifics and only work with the information provided:

 

That's Zen, Zen 2 and Zem3 in the supported AM4 timeframe.  What changed and when? because AMD never corrected this.

[Warin]

38 minutes ago, NumLock21 said:

Those 3 boards makers I checked, in their specs page for their B450 boards, some says support for Ryzen 3rd Gen and some don't. I think their definition of 3rd gen isn't our definition of 3rd gen? For them, Ryzen 3rd Gen is Ryzen 3000 series, while 4th Gen will be Ryzen 4000 series. But for us, Ryzen 4000 series is 3rd gen, since it's based on Zen 3.

 

Except you aren't counting properly.  It goes Ryzen (1st gen) Ryzen Plus (2nd gen) Ryzen 2 (3rd gen). 

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

 

As I have been showing you your assumptions have been wrong and have ignored existing official information, you're assumptions and not paying attention to existing compatibility matrix got you here.

I am not making assumptions.  When did AMD say that zen 3 would not work on pre x5xx boards?

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

That's Zen, Zen 2 and Zem3 in the supported AM4 timeframe.  What changed and when? because AMD never corrected this.

There is nothing to correct, Zen 3 is supported on AM4. Do we need to have the assumption talk again? Really? You really want to ignore existing information to argue something not actually stated by AMD.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Warin said:

Except you aren't counting properly.  It goes Ryzen (1st gen) Ryzen Plus (2nd gen) Ryzen 2 (3rd gen). 

And why is there confusion in the first place?

[Warin]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

And why is there confusion in the first place?

Because people in marketing are often morons?  I suspect AMD was going for a tick/tock naming scheme and then decided that instead of having Zen 2+, they should jsut call it Zen3/

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

There is nothing to correct, Zen 3 is supported on AM4. Do we need to have the assumption talk again? Really? You really want to ignore existing information to argue something not actually stated by AMD.

If they say it will work on AM4 then consumer are right to think it will work on AM4.  They say nothing about chipsets, why would a consumer need to make assumptions about chipset support.  The company say it will work on AM4,  90% of this forum was still expecting support up til this week, why would you think any consumer would naturally start questioning chipset?

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Warin said:

Because people in marketing are often morons?  I suspect AMD was going for a tick/tock naming scheme and then decided that instead of having Zen 2+, they should jsut call it Zen3/

So AMD fucked up and the consumers are confused (even us tech enthusiasts get confused, the number of complaints over nomenclature is rising).   What this amounts to is bad communication from AMD (and maybe board partners).

 

 

 

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

If they say it will work on AM4 then consumer are right to think it will work on AM4.  They say nothing about chipsets, why would a consumer need to make assumptions about chipset support.  The company say it will work on AM4,  90% of this forum was still expecting support up til this week, why would you think any consumer would naturally start questioning chipset?

Because in other slides they talk about chipsets and their compatibility. Sure if you put your blinders on and ignore all other information this might make sense but it doesn't. Because like I said chipset support has already been unrelated  to architecture road map, for a long time, so it's your mistake for doing so.

 

Why? When it was already a problem covered in great detail for Ryzen 3000. If you forgot then there is nothing I can do about that, truly nothing.

[Dabombinable]

49 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Even gigabyte think B450 will support gen3, so it's not just MSI.  If the board manufacturers think it will be supported and roadmaps say it will be, and AMD haven't said anything to anyone until now that it won't,  why should anyone assume it won't work?

That's Gen 3, not Ryzen 3. We're currently on the 3rd generation of Ryzen with the 3000 series.

[Warin]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So AMD fucked up and the consumers are confused (even us tech enthusiasts get confused, the number of complaints over nomenclature is rising).   What this amounts to is bad communication from AMD (and maybe board partners).

 

 

 

Pretty much.

To be fair, I think making a break between chip generations by using a new socket architecture isn't always a bad thing.  For instance, I am not really bent out of shape that the board I bought for my 8th generation i5 won't handle the new 10th generation CPUs.  

[Dabombinable]

2 minutes ago, Warin said:

Pretty much.

To be fair, I think making a break between chip generations by using a new socket architecture isn't always a bad thing.  For instance, I am not really bent out of shape that the board I bought for my 8th generation i5 won't handle the new 10th generation CPUs.  

TBH, the CPU's don't even appear to be a true upgrade from the 8th gen series, so that gives even less of a reason to be annoyed about the socket change.

[mr moose]

7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Because in other slides they talk about chipsets and their compatibility. Sure if you put your blinders on and ignore all other information this might make sense but it doesn't. Because like I said chipset support has already been unrelated  to architecture road map, for a long time, so it's your mistake for doing so.

 

Why? When it was already a problem covered in great detail for Ryzen 3000. If you forgot then there is nothing I can do about that, truly nothing.

It was a problem with some bioses due to size, AMD played down the problem and still supported the boards allowing the creation of bios updates that worked around the problem,  from that the only thing a consumer can know is that zen3 will still be supported and may require a special bios update.  But that is AMD providing support, here they are claiming they will not provide support for pre x5xx boards. 

 

You see the problem,  in all issues earlier there were work arounds because AMD provided support for those chipsets,  now they are claiming they will not provide support for those chipsets.  There is no longer official support for AM4 boards as they originally claimed and until now they never stated their intentions to can that support.

 

7 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

That's Gen 3, not Ryzen 3. We're currently on the 3rd generation of Ryzen with the 3000 series.

Yes I got confused, between people calling it gen 3 and posting pictures about 3rd gen and not zen 3.

 

[Bombastinator]

I foresee a lean streak for mid-high end ryzen until b550 arrives and is available.  MSI and a few board partners may have legal difficulties.  AMD may be able to help them somewhat or not.  AMD should survive it and be back at it again.   They’ve seen themselves through worse.  It’s a body blow but not a knock out.

[Warin]

4 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

TBH, the CPU's don't even appear to be a true upgrade from the 8th gen series, so that gives even less of a reason to be annoyed about the socket change.

Well, I understand why they went with LGA1200, as a means to better support sata 4.0.  They just didn't necessarily need to pack a *Lake cpu into the new package, other than to make people buy new mobos.  Which is a little rage inducing

 

[trevb0t]

On 5/8/2020 at 6:50 AM, Tristerin said:

I feel confident I could push a stock 3950X on my ASRock board with no issues, due to the testing Ive done on the board (not recommending it, but I think it wouldn't be a problem either) - that's insane value for a socket imho

Agreed! Those of use who bought into AM4 in the Zen and especially the Zen+ era (since B450 is a little more stable than B350/X370) are getting a lot of added value if you consider that our now 2 year old ~$70-120 boards will be able to slot in a 3950X two years from now when they are ~$200 for a monster value upgrade.

 

I do see some frustration for the people who bought into B450 for Zen 2, since the upgradeability is now marginal (more cores, but similar per-core.) The upgradeable value of the board has offered less, but frankly... A B450 Max board has been sub $100 since they launched, and a 3600 isn't going to fall off for a few years in gaming performance. So QUIT YOUR BITCHIN!