Here’s why Apples $700 Wheels are NOT Crazy

[molszanski]

>  I don’t see Apple moving the “feature” of wheels to a MacBook or an iPhone.

 

ಠ_ಠ

 

> Am I missing the point of this section? 

 

Let me put another way. Apple wheels pricing has nothing to do “get publicity for free” or position it as a “luxury halo product” or “boast about their wealth/taste.”. **In a professional world every high quality, low volume accessory has an outrageous price tag.**

 

I am pointing at a glaring hole in public discourse when it comes to “outrageously” priced products. Nobody bats an eye when professional tripods cost $8k or reference monitor (display) costs $40k. But everybody looses their minds when they see a $1k monitor arm or $5k display in professional line up of a fruit company. 

 

> I also don’t see your overall point

Apple is not in a luxury/halo/show-wealth brand game. It is in a “get to double B” game.

[Marbo]

The argument with the RTX Titan is not so clear cut. 

It may not have much better performance than a 2080 Ti but the vram difference is huge. If I could spare titan money I'd have one, and not just for bragging rights. Whereas I wouldn't even consider $700 pc wheels. 

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, molszanski said:

Let me put another way. Apple wheels pricing has nothing to do “get publicity for free” or position it as a “luxury halo product” or “boast about their wealth/taste.”. **In a professional world every high quality, low volume accessory has an outrageous price tag.**

 

I am pointing at a glaring hole in public discourse when it comes to “outrageously” priced products. Nobody bats an eye when professional tripods cost $8k or reference monitor (display) costs $40k. But everybody looses their minds when they see a $1k monitor arm or $5k display in professional line up of a fruit company. 

 

 

 

The point that a lot of people miss is that Apple is not making 'high volume, mass market' items, and never has. But it IS about brand. Otherwise you wouldn't see those iMac's in seemingly every film and TV production.

 

The average user may not need the most expensive kit available, but the expensive kit also happens to work the best for certain fields, and if your production cost is in the millions, you're not going to bat an eye at a $10000 computer if it's necessary. $700 wheels, maybe the desktop gets transported on-location a lot. That can't be a light machine.

 

The engineering office I do work at, billion dollar projects, nobody bats an eye at the cost replacing a computer. You get a new one every 3 years if you ask for one. Some people don't, they prefer how they have their machine setup and the accessories they already have, others can't wait to throw the previous boat anchor (in weight) away, they love shiney new things, even if it's rather impractical for their job. The sales people want the 12" latitudes (the same market for the Apple Macbook Air) because they're small and light... despite being horribly underperforming, but that's fine, they only use Office and some web-browser stuff. The engineers though, Apple does not make a laptop that would work for them, however that Mac Pro certainly could. Too bad Autodesk doesn't make the software they need for it, however a Mac Pro can run Windows. Autodesk does make the base Autocad program and Maya for MacOS, which is all you need if you're working in film and animation.

 

More to the point that Mac Pro can be configured in nearly an identical configuration to a Dell Precision 7920 workstation at a similar price point. If it was just about dollars, you're not going to get people to flip to/from what they are familiar with when it's a drop in the bucket of the project cost. However if you're working on a TV series, where it will be on-going for years, you're also not going to suddenly throw out half your production pipeline equipment on a whim. 

[Lord Vile]

4 hours ago, molszanski said:

>  I don’t see Apple moving the “feature” of wheels to a MacBook or an iPhone.

 

ಠ_ಠ

 

> Am I missing the point of this section? 

 

Let me put another way. Apple wheels pricing has nothing to do “get publicity for free” or position it as a “luxury halo product” or “boast about their wealth/taste.”. **In a professional world every high quality, low volume accessory has an outrageous price tag.**

 

I am pointing at a glaring hole in public discourse when it comes to “outrageously” priced products. Nobody bats an eye when professional tripods cost $8k or reference monitor (display) costs $40k. But everybody looses their minds when they see a $1k monitor arm or $5k display in professional line up of a fruit company. 

 

> I also don’t see your overall point

Apple is not in a luxury/halo/show-wealth brand game. It is in a “get to double B” game.

Linus did pay $1000 each for red camera handles. I mean at least the wheels have moving parts? 
 

When you move into professional or even prosumer like HEDT/workstation prices go up, that could be reds stupidly priced moulded plastic or apples stupidly priced moulded plastic, intels stupidly priced (compared to AMD) Xeon lineup or nvidias Titan lineup which really doesn’t make sense either you need a pro GPU or you don’t make up your mind!

[caincha]

Wait wait hang on a second there: Linus is saying to completely pretend Apple doesn't exist? The same Linus that said quite a few times on the WAN Show that they put Apple on a video tittle whenever they can because it grabs more views? 

 

 

 

 

[caincha]

Double-post 

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Linus did pay $1000 each for red camera handles. I mean at least the wheels have moving parts? 
 

When you move into professional or even prosumer like HEDT/workstation prices go up, that could be reds stupidly priced moulded plastic or apples stupidly priced moulded plastic, intels stupidly priced (compared to AMD) Xeon lineup or nvidias Titan lineup which really doesn’t make sense either you need a pro GPU or you don’t make up your mind!

Yes, but even in the professional world there is a limit to the piss take.    Like $1000 handles, this goes well beyond that limit.  

 

 

 

 

[Senzelian]

10 hours ago, hishnash said:

Without apple the progress of phones would be much much slower, apples competition has pushed phones, in the android space to developer a lot faster than without apple. 

also in the PC laptop space do you think MS would have bothered to make ok (ish) touchpads if apples were not outstanding.

Apple continues to ensure there is push to improve products not at a spec sheet but at a user experience level and that lifts all boats even if you are not using an apple product.

I never said otherwise. 

[Lord Vile]

13 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Yes, but even in the professional world there is a limit to the piss take.    Like $1000 handles, this goes well beyond that limit.  

 

 

 

 

The professional world is just one giant piss take though. The more you have to spend on equipment the more you can pay for stuff you need for that equipment and the more proprietary stuff you have to pay for. Because you need that equipment so why use USB or SATA when they can bend you over for a slightly different interface! Take the Xeon line up. A 10 core Gold Xeon MSRP is over $4000 plus you need a more expensive board and ECC RAM etc on top of that. Is the performance difference between that Xeon and a 9900K really worth well over $3000 plus other expenses for features that intel could put on the 9900K at very little cost. In the data centre yes because the product exists but in reality it’s a bit steep for features that have pretty much been artificially locked away from the cheaper chip. 

[GDRRiley]

2 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Linus did pay $1000 each handle 

Yes red is overly expensive but welcome to the entire video industry. JVC sells cameras that look worst than a 1500$ DSLR but because they are professional they cost 15k. 
tricaster takes a 4790, with a 1050ti in a 2U server to 40-50K. 
the video world is crazy. But nothing made him by a Red or even that handle. There’s great 3rd party for 1/10 the price. 
 

Yeah instead of complaining don’t mention them. Yes Apple’s name drives clicks. How do you think ijustine got anywhere? 

51 minutes ago, caincha said:

Wait wait hang on a second there: Linus is saying to completely pretend Apple doesn't exist? The same Linus that said quite a few times on the WAN Show that they put Apple on a video tittle whenever they can because it grabs more views? 

[Lord Vile]

9 minutes ago, GDRRiley said:

Yes red is overly expensive but welcome to the entire video industry. JVC sells cameras that look worst than a 1500$ DSLR but because they are professional they cost 15k. 
tricaster takes a 4790, with a 1050ti in a 2U server to 40-50K. 
the video world is crazy. But nothing made him by a Red or even that handle. There’s great 3rd party for 1/10 the price. 
 

Yeah instead of complaining don’t mention them. Yes Apple’s name drives clicks. How do you think ijustine got anywhere? 

I’m surprised Apple haven’t tried to sue iJustine for trademark infringement tbh. 

[mr moose]

22 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

The professional world is just one giant piss take though. The more you have to spend on equipment the more you can pay for stuff you need for that equipment and the more proprietary stuff you have to pay for. Because you need that equipment so why use USB or SATA when they can bend you over for a slightly different interface! Take the Xeon line up. A 10 core Gold Xeon MSRP is over $4000 plus you need a more expensive board and ECC RAM etc on top of that. Is the performance difference between that Xeon and a 9900K really worth well over $3000 plus other expenses for features that intel could put on the 9900K at very little cost. In the data centre yes because the product exists but in reality it’s a bit steep for features that have pretty much been artificially locked away from the cheaper chip. 

There is justification for most professional costs though, however there is no justification for $700 wheels or $1000 handles.  No matter how you try to spin it.  The prices is a joke, it's a big rip and only dumb vane people will buy it.

[Lord Vile]

6 minutes ago, mr moose said:

There is justification for most professional costs though, however there is no justification for $700 wheels or $1000 handles.  No matter how you try to spin it.  The prices is a joke, it's a big rip and only dumb vane people will buy it.

You wanna hold your camera and wheel about your PC though. You just know if your 3rd party item breaks and damages the actual item you’ll just get “Well if you were using the OFFICIAL accessory that we so graciously offer for just 80,000% margin (really I don’t know how we can afford this amazing deal) we would have replaced your equipment under warranty, however as you used a cheap, evil 3rd party option it’s your own fault so fuck you”. 

[mr moose]

7 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

You wanna hold your camera and wheel about your PC though. You just know if your 3rd party item breaks and damages the actual item you’ll just get “Well if you were using the OFFICIAL accessory that we so graciously offer for just 80,000% margin (really I don’t know how we can afford this amazing deal) we would have replaced your equipment under warranty, however as you used a cheap, evil 3rd party option it’s your own fault so fuck you”. 

Again, only the dumb and vane will buy it.   Industrial castors rated to 400Kg only cost $30 each.  That is for top of the line professional castors for equipment that make the mac look like an etchisketch.   There is no justification for the price.

[Lord Vile]

29 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Again, only the dumb and vane will buy it.   Industrial castors rated to 400Kg only cost $30 each.  That is for top of the line professional castors for equipment that make the mac look like an etchisketch.   There is no justification for the price.

Not saying 3rd party options are bad just saying if something breaks randomly, which does happen, you’ll get less help from the manufacturer of the expensive stuff that’s now damaged. 

[mr moose]

Just now, Lord Vile said:

Not saying 3rd party options are bad just saying if something breaks randomly, which does happen, you’ll get less help from the manufacturer of the expensive stuff that’s now damaged. 

Which still doesn't justify the price.  In fact what you are describing borders on anti consumer, buy these grossly and unnecessarily over priced wheels or go without otherwise you lose your warranty.    If that's the only argument you have for them being that price then again we are back to only stupid and vane people buying them.

 

 

[Lord Vile]

17 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Which still doesn't justify the price.  In fact what you are describing borders on anti consumer, buy these grossly and unnecessarily over priced wheels or go without otherwise you lose your warranty.    If that's the only argument you have for them being that price then again we are back to only stupid and vane people buying them.

 

 

I’m not saying it justifies the price either! But if you’re buying equipment that costs tens of thousands or over a hundred thousand they know they can charge whatever they bloody want for a handle or a stand or an attachment so you can make sure they don’t weasel out of paying for something if something goes tits up. Not saying it’s right it’s just how professional grade stuff works. 

[molszanski]

1 hour ago, Lord Vile said:

I’m not saying it justifies the price either!

But a lot of people label you, me etc. as defenders and justifiers. 

And we point to the principles that makes this shit fly. 

[molszanski]

@Kisai

 

I appreciate your post very much. 

[Commodus]

13 hours ago, molszanski said:

>  I don’t see Apple moving the “feature” of wheels to a MacBook or an iPhone.

 

ಠ_ಠ

 

> Am I missing the point of this section? 

 

Let me put another way. Apple wheels pricing has nothing to do “get publicity for free” or position it as a “luxury halo product” or “boast about their wealth/taste.”. **In a professional world every high quality, low volume accessory has an outrageous price tag.**

 

I am pointing at a glaring hole in public discourse when it comes to “outrageously” priced products. Nobody bats an eye when professional tripods cost $8k or reference monitor (display) costs $40k. But everybody looses their minds when they see a $1k monitor arm or $5k display in professional line up of a fruit company. 

 

> I also don’t see your overall point

Apple is not in a luxury/halo/show-wealth brand game. It is in a “get to double B” game.

Well it is in the luxury game... just not for pro workstations.  After all, Apple Watch pricing is dictated primarily by case and strap materials.

[mr moose]

11 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

I’m not saying it justifies the price either! But if you’re buying equipment that costs tens of thousands or over a hundred thousand they know they can charge whatever they bloody want for a handle or a stand or an attachment so you can make sure they don’t weasel out of paying for something if something goes tits up. Not saying it’s right it’s just how professional grade stuff works. 

Been over that,  just because some professional gear seems overpriced to you doesn't make this professional gear that is simply over priced,  This is still an incredible piss take, this is not a result of professional stuff costing more, not buy any stretch of the imagination.  As I have already pointed our, professional castors for professional use in industrial settings with equipment only costs $30 not $700.  Stop pretending there is any validation beyond knowing dumb vane people will buy them.

 

10 hours ago, molszanski said:

But a lot of people label you, me etc. as defenders and justifiers. 

And we point to the principles that makes this shit fly. 

 

There are no principals here that justify the price though,  it is a gouge knowing that you can't fit any other wheels and some people are that vane and stupid they will pay it.  What makes this shit fly is apple, nothing else.

 

 

[hishnash]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

There are no principals here that justify the price though

Im sure it did cost apple that much to make them, it's not like apple is buying third party wheels and pricing them up.

They should be buying third party wheels that is the problem. They are not a wheel company.

They instead chose (wrongly) to design them themselves (probably from scratch, as they don't have any other wheel based products to build on). 
 

So there will be a very large overhead to each wheel, and in most apple products that sell in high volumes this overhead (designed and tooling) is absorbed over those millions of units, but in this case apple is assuming they will sell maybe 4000 of these max over the lifetime of the product. 

 

So let us look at the type of things that are part of these upfront costs that go into making a new product from scratch:

* higher someone experienced and pay them (or more than one) who have build wheels before. (min $100k apple is based in CA) 

* come up with a selection of possible options (lets assume this is just done by the person above so no extra cost)

* file some patients so that you dont get sued day one of product release ($200k legal fees min)

* find a factory that can make these options (this will be quite a bit of flying around etc so $50k)

* get that factory (or factories) to make some prototypes ($10k)
* test them..... ... (time and money, no idea how much for wheels)
* select an option  (you most likly will want to go back the factoris and do this again and again a few times untill it is perfect but lest assume that it is perfect the first time)

* pay the factory to build the needed setup so that they can produce these reliably to a given standard ($100k)

* get certification approval and other legal paperwork for every nation in the world were you ship products ( legal work so min $100k)

 

 

so that is a min upfront costly of at least $560,000 before you make them. If you assume you will just sell 1000 sets of 4 then that is $560 a set, and that does not cover the of the 4 wheels.

in the end the summary is apple should have found some existing good quality wheels and put a 100% markup on them that would both be cheaper to the consumer and apple would make LOST more money from selling them.

 

 

[Egg-Roll]

23 hours ago, LinusTech said:

Have never actually seen the music video for this song.

 

What's with the blurred logo on his shirt? They have the budget for a rooftop concert including helicopter footage, but they can't get him to wear a shirt without a brand logo on it?

 

This is the closest I could get w/o it being deliberately blurred, nothing I recognize, thanks pre 1080.

 

It's more the music they made imo, it wouldn't go very well with brands, I'm actually surprised they didn't blur out his New Era hats logo as well. Would you want a brand with a song like My Generation which is basically telling the world to F off  

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, hishnash said:

in the end the summary is apple should have found some existing good quality wheels and put a 100% markup on them that would both be cheaper to the consumer and apple would make LOST more money from selling them.

 

 

Maybe, but they didn't, in the end they tried to reinvent the wheel and put an incredibly stupid markup on it very very intentionally.   Even pretending they made a mistake does not justify the cost.

[hishnash]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Maybe, but they didn't, in the end they tried to reinvent the wheel and put an incredibly stupid markup on it very very intentionally.   Even pretending they made a mistake does not justify the cost.

You don't need to re-invent the wheel to have a high fixed cost of starting production. A normal company that `makes wheels` will have the same upfront costs the difference is they plan on building millions of them not 1000s so that fixed cost is spread out over a much much large number of units. 

I don't think that they think they made a mistake it was 100% intentional.

 

They absolutely knew from day one that the upfront costs of the wheel would mean it would cost a massive amount, apple have some very skilled finance teams they will have done the numbers on everything.

What i'm saying is I don't think these wheels are a massive profit for apple, they will be taking their normal hardware 30% markup, and if they find a way to sell them for 10 years aka sell many more units than they expected then it will be a high profit item, but today with the low volume unit sales I recon most other parts of the macPro have a higher markup than the wheels.

 

in-fact across the macPro the feet (not the wheels) are going to have the larger markup. 1) they are much simpler to design 2) tooling costs are much lower since they can re-use most of the tooling for the case. 3) the number of units they will ship is much much higher so the fixed costs can be spread over a much larger number of units. And yet apple charge $300 for them.

From what apple have said publicly they basically told the engining team go play, we don't care how much this thing will cost we just want you to have fun, that is how you end up with products with extremely high fix costs.