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5x5

Asus Caught Being Malicious - Zephyrus G15 has fan vents blocked by black paper. Reason Unknown

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37 minutes ago, Kisai said:

and it's like that venn diagram of "cheap, fast, good ; pick two"

fast-good-cheap-768x768.png

lol so true, it's why I refuse to buy laptops or when I do it's the most dirt cheap crap possible since if I'm going to waste my money I'll waste as little as possible.

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On 7/5/2020 at 11:01 PM, mr moose said:

I don't fit any coolers to laptops.  Kappa Kappa Lambda theta.

 

And BTW, yes, I have never bought nor installed an aftermarket CPU cooler.

the point is do you believe that nobody should use an aftermarket cooler because they will destroy their systems or something

3 hours ago, Kisai said:

 

I wouldn't recommend a third party cooler unless you are aiming to do overclocking or are buying a high end part to put in a low-end chassis. The reason mostly comes down to installation difficulty. You are far more likely to damage the CPU if you don't know what you're doing. With the AMD AM4 chips apparently gravity will actually pull the chip out of the motherboard and bend the pins in the process, so you need a third party cooler that clips from the underside of the board to prevent that. Intel's previous and current Core2/Core lines with the "push pin" cooler risk actually cracking the PCB and wearing down the plastic holding the pin in place if you have to take the cooler off more than once. 

 

If you only intend to install it once and forget about it though, the stock cooler is fine. Your average office PC will be fine until it collects an inch of dust inside it. Laptops, not a chance.

 

What would fix a lot of cooling issues in laptops would be to just direct the heat towards a cooling plate that is magnetically attached to give the laptop more cooling surface. Remove the plate and the cpu and gpu throttle back down.

 

what sort of mounting brackets do those coolers use wtf do you super glue the cooler onto the cpu? and i prefer not to have a hurricane next to me especially since i use open back headphones and the cpu would hit 88 celcius with the stock amd cooler which would be fine for a lot of people since they are fine with 95 celcius even but it makes me uncomfortable 

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5 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

what sort of mounting brackets do those coolers use wtf do you super glue the cooler onto the cpu? and i prefer not to have a hurricane next to me especially since i use open back headphones and the cpu would hit 88 celcius with the stock amd cooler which would be fine for a lot of people since they are fine with 95 celcius even but it makes me uncomfortable 

 

Well if you're going to mount a large cooler with it's own pair of 120mm fans, you need enough space for it to fit and since it's heavier than the stock cooler, it will. Even the stock cooler will.

 

Here's one (of quite a few) examples:

https://community.amd.com/thread/231853

Quote

I just got done trying to change coolers on my 2700x. After removing the latches, the heat sink would not pull off the CPU with a normal amount of force. I slighted turned the cooler to the left and right to try to break the seal. When it would give, I gently pulled straight up. However,the CPU had melded with the heatsink and was ripped out during removal. I have a couple of bent pins on one corner. I assume AMD is going to tell me to kick rocks as far as warranty goes but I figured I would check.

With one answer that sheds some light on it:

Quote

sounds like you were using liquid metal for TIM - known to destroy AMD processors.

More answers in the thread mention thermal paste adhering the cpu to the cooler.

 

Anyway, not my personal experience with the TIM acting as superglue. My personal experience is with third party coolers that weigh twice as much as the stock cooler and having to install additional mounting equipment that feels more solid than the stock intel coolers, which intels are held by plastic pins.

 

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14 minutes ago, Kisai said:

 

Well if you're going to mount a large cooler with it's own pair of 120mm fans, you need enough space for it to fit and since it's heavier than the stock cooler, it will. Even the stock cooler will.

 

Here's one (of quite a few) examples:

https://community.amd.com/thread/231853

With one answer that sheds some light on it:

More answers in the thread mention thermal paste adhering the cpu to the cooler.

 

Anyway, not my personal experience with the TIM acting as superglue. My personal experience is with third party coolers that weigh twice as much as the stock cooler and having to install additional mounting equipment that feels more solid than the stock intel coolers, which intels are held by plastic pins.

 

what? that not due to the weight of the cooler its because the amd stock cooler thermalpaste is like glue i had trouble with it also and had to twist the cooler a bit to get it off which was a bit scary. but in fact this proves the opposite that the stock cooler is more likely to damage the cpu than a 3rd party cooler LUL. theres no way a cooler would bend the pins on a cpu no matter how heavy it is because its attached to the motherboard not the cpu. if you get a cooler that weighs a ton its going to break the motherboard

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2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

what? that not due to the weight of the cooler its because the amd stock cooler thermalpaste is like glue i had trouble with it also and had to twist the cooler a bit to get it off which was a bit scary. but in fact this proves the opposite that the stock cooler is more likely to damage the cpu than a 3rd party cooler LUL. theres no way a cooler would bend the pins on a cpu no matter how heavy it is because its attached to the motherboard not the cpu. if you get a cooler that weighs a ton its going to break the motherboard

I get the impression different things are being takes about here.  It sort of sounds like you two agree, it’s just a question of wording.  As to the stock cooler thermal paste being a problem wouldn’t that only apply to prebuilts or instances where the thermal paste that came with the cooler was used?


Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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3 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

what? that not due to the weight of the cooler its because the amd stock cooler thermalpaste is like glue i had trouble with it also and had to twist the cooler a bit to get it off which was a bit scary. but in fact this proves the opposite that the stock cooler is more likely to damage the cpu than a 3rd party cooler LUL. theres no way a cooler would bend the pins on a cpu no matter how heavy it is because its attached to the motherboard not the cpu. if you get a cooler that weighs a ton its going to break the motherboard

Search this forum for people who have thermal problems after their PC was shipped, moved or dropped. This tends to point to either the weight of the cooler or the "tall" coolers being pulled from their mounting hardware. 

 

Anyway the point was that the stock coolers are usually good-enough for something you're not going to fiddle with again.  

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1 minute ago, Kisai said:

Search this forum for people who have thermal problems after their PC was shipped, moved or dropped. This tends to point to either the weight of the cooler or the "tall" coolers being pulled from their mounting hardware. 

 

Anyway the point was that the stock coolers are usually good-enough for something you're not going to fiddle with again.  

ofc you should never ship a pc with a big cooler and being dropped is self explanatory. im not saying never use stock coolers im saying that sometimes having a third party cooler is beneficial and sometimes people can and should make modifications to their hardware rather than just going with that the manufacturer provides and im not sure why i have to defend this point on a largely custom computer forum LUL

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9 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

the point is do you believe that nobody should use an aftermarket cooler because they will destroy their systems or something

 

 

Who uses aftermarket coolers on laptops? I'm not sure how that applies to buying a laptop or understanding that compromises are an intrinsic part of their design.  The modification being posed in that video has side effects which may or may not reduce it's serviceable life).  


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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7 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

what? that not due to the weight of the cooler its because the amd stock cooler thermalpaste is like glue i had trouble with it also and had to twist the cooler a bit to get it off which was a bit scary. but in fact this proves the opposite that the stock cooler is more likely to damage the cpu than a 3rd party cooler LUL. theres no way a cooler would bend the pins on a cpu no matter how heavy it is because its attached to the motherboard not the cpu. if you get a cooler that weighs a ton its going to break the motherboard

That problem is just user/installation error. It's not a problem on LGA because the latch holds down the CPU. Those of us old enough to have been doing CPU installs since before LGA existed know how to work with PGA safely, this knowledge will spread again now that PGA is in use again.

 

You twist the cooler as much as you can then as it's moving/twisting you apply diagonal lift to the cooler, never direct straight up and down, and you will never pull the CPU out of the socket. The only way the CPU can be pulled out is by not twisting it enough to break both the adhesive seal but also the suction seal (really the absence of air if we are being technical about it). I've never pulled a CPU out of a PGA socket with the cooler attached.

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17 hours ago, Kisai said:

Honestly, this is a problem that stems from the demand for thin-and-light ultrabook designs, which all universally suck. Ever since they removed the optical drive, laptops have had insufficient cooling capacity to run the way users mostly use them, and it's like that venn diagram of "cheap, fast, good ; pick two

HP probook line is a bit better in this respect but they still need more cooling. my 3500U runs a little hot but not bad. I'd have to do some thermal load tests in a non tiny room for actuate numbers.


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Maybe cpu should throttle to maintain proper vrm temps instead of making cpu run hotter and throttle to save vrm temps as result etc, or perhaps bios should have instruction for cpu to throttle to maintain proper temps on vrm, eitherway they should probably fix the vrm cooling issue regardless.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
16 minutes ago, Escanor said:

Maybe cpu should throttle to maintain proper vrm temps instead of making cpu run hotter and throttle to save vrm temps as result etc, or perhaps bios should have instruction for cpu to throttle to maintain proper temps on vrm, eitherway they should probably fix the vrm cooling issue regardless.

Or Asus shouldn't be taking bribes to artificially fuck CPU temps (G15) or intentionally fucking the design (A15)

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Just now, 5x5 said:

Or Asus shouldn't be taking bribes to artificially fuck CPU temps (G15) or intentionally fucking the design (A15)

 

Im not a fan of running cpu higher temps either there fix was not thought thru, probably was due limitations they should just cancel the product do a call back and fix it properly least in a way that temps are under control for cpu as well and vrm's, altho vrm are usually rated to work very long time even at 105c that probably not safe for a laptop to burn fingers on, wonder if that something that could be fixed at all.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
2 minutes ago, Escanor said:

 

Im not a fan of running cpu higher temps either there fix was not thought thru, probably was due limitations they should just cancel the product do a call back and fix it properly least in a way that temps are under control for cpu as well and vrm's, altho vrm are usually rated to work very long time even at 105c that probably not safe for a laptop to burn fingers on, wonder if that something that could be fixed at all.

The issue on the A15 is easy to fix. Extend the heat plate to cover the power delivery just like on other laptops.

 

The G15 has no issue whatsoever. The black plastic isn't needed and was added because intel were not pleased with how cool the G15 ran compared to the M15. The reason the G14 doesn't have such blocked vents is the contract Asus have in place with AMD whereby AMD played a big role in the laptops design and didn't allow any such nonsense on their end.

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I had a Lenovo Y500 that had a similar mesh on the inside of the intakes. The laptop used to burn the hell out of my hand when I played BF3/BF4 on it. After About a year of my hand being burnt I cutout the mesh insert and dramatically reduced the temperature of that laptop.

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I would guess it's the same reason as Asus TUF A15, it has blocked bottom intake too. Asus stated that it's for cooling other components, like G15, and also said that its because of VRM temperature. Would be nice have some video which measures VRM temperature with G15 with and without intake covers, possibly repasted too. #content

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47 minutes ago, FeelsDeadMan said:

I would guess it's the same reason as Asus TUF A15, it has blocked bottom intake too. Asus stated that it's for cooling other components, like G15, and also said that its because of VRM temperature. Would be nice have some video which measures VRM temperature with G15 with and without intake covers, possibly repasted too. #content

There is,  basically the VRM goes up a few degrees and the CPU comes down a few.   The issue people are missing is that companies balance performance and longevity.  Regardless what forum plebs think they know about laptops and silicon, the reality is Asus want their device to last a certain length of time and only reach certain temps. So depending on the CPU and it's thermal characteristics they will retard it a bit to reduce the thermal wear on the VRM.

 

Car companies do this all the time,  that's why there is a whole market for tuners and after makret performance bits,  If the manufacturer could just add those bits without any longevity penalty they would.

 

 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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On 7/7/2020 at 4:46 AM, leadeater said:

lol so true, it's why I refuse to buy laptops or when I do it's the most dirt cheap crap possible since if I'm going to waste my money I'll waste as little as possible.

Jut noticed “takes time” and “low quality” should be swapped in the pic.  May have already been mentioned.


Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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53 minutes ago, mr moose said:

There is,  basically the VRM goes up a few degrees and the CPU comes down a few.   The issue people are missing is that companies balance performance and longevity.  Regardless what forum plebs think they know about laptops and silicon, the reality is Asus want their device to last a certain length of time and only reach certain temps. So depending on the CPU and it's thermal characteristics they will retard it a bit to reduce the thermal wear on the VRM.

 

Car companies do this all the time,  that's why there is a whole market for tuners and after makret performance bits,  If the manufacturer could just add those bits without any longevity penalty they would.

 

 

Yes, but they could lock the clock lower, you would get 15 inch with 14 inch zephyrus performance (you get less now with worse thermals), but much lower temps and/or quieter laptop. And you wouldn't have to change desing either. This is what it makes it weird. Why the heck would you slap paper there and make a bracket for it if you can do this easy solution.

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At the end of the day TUF is the “fast and cheap” line, and they do things fast and cheap. They had a case designed for Intel and they slapped together some quick ass fixes to try and make a different system fit inside it.  Not all makers did this. “Hardware unboxed” found a German company that actually did work to give equal time to and and intel CPUs in otherwise identical laptops and were able to actually take advantage of ryzen’s lower cpu temps to give extra power to the gpu.  Effect was more or less ryzen was flat out better for non gaming stuff and while the CPUs were a bit slower for gaming most of that could be made up because the lower cpu heat allowed more power for the gpu. 
They’re apparently selling so many ryzen laptops the can’t get chips though. 


Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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19 minutes ago, FeelsDeadMan said:

Yes, but they could lock the clock lower, you would get 15 inch with 14 inch zephyrus performance (you get less now with worse thermals), but much lower temps and/or quieter laptop. And you wouldn't have to change desing either. This is what it makes it weird. Why the heck would you slap paper there and make a bracket for it if you can do this easy solution.

 

Because failing to cover the air intake resulted in less air traveling over the VRM.  It doesn't matter if you software lock the CPU clock, the idea is to limit VRM over heating.    Also software locks on Clocks can be worked around resulting in their product not performing the way they intend.    Many companies have tried software locks, like Nvidia on mobile GPU, but the reality is it creates more problems than its worth.  The CPU will thermal throttle before it does any damage to itself, the VRM will not. 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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21 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

Because failing to cover the air intake resulted in less air traveling over the VRM.  It doesn't matter if you software lock the CPU clock, the idea is to limit VRM over heating.    Also software locks on Clocks can be worked around resulting in their product not performing the way they intend.    Many companies have tried software locks, like Nvidia on mobile GPU, but the reality is it creates more problems than its worth.  The CPU will thermal throttle before it does any damage to itself, the VRM will not. 

So the solution to that would be to make a system for cooling the VRM. Which they didn’t do because fast and cheap. Paper was fast and cheap.  That it was also stupid and more or less shit design was probably not something the engineers liked but budget is budget.  There was a limit to what they could do to get an AMD chip working in an intel case without making more than tiny changes. If there was maliciousness it had more to do with managerial cheapness than actual engineering.  As a laptop it’s crap for AMD. I would say that’s not AMD’s fault or even asus engineering at fault.  It was some asshat manager trying to save a buck and coming out with a crap product because they wouldn't allocate the resources to do it right. 


So more or less just a shit laptop, which people knew.  The danger I think is people are using the performance numbers to say that AMD chips behave differently than they do.   My personal take away is that TUF is crap, and survives because it can get new designs into cheap systems, and the cost is low quality. 
 

Occam’s razor says that attributing something to maliciousness that can be explained by incompetence is generally a mistake.  TUF leadership was incompetent. I don’t think the engineers really were.  This points not so much to engineers working to make AMD look bad, it points to someone in an asus boardroom with a thumb up their butt. 


Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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Well, just fuck it, why risk it right? I will just buy G14 and disapointly leave G15 to Asus, if they added an actual 1 heatpipe for the VRM's, they could raise the price and G15 would have been gold. :/ Bombastinator, I know this type of management. You can tell they will make more in the end, even improve manufacturing for less faulty parts, but no, they have to save 10-15% and lose 50% of the profits in the end.

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