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I hunger for (more) pixels - 144/150MP sensors in development

williamcll
By williamcll
in Tech News
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XiaoMi as well as Samsung are working on the next generation of main camera sensors with an even higher pixel density, it its not sure when phones with these installed will be announced. Previously XiaoMi was the first company to utilize Samsung's ISOCELL 108MP camera and a refreshed version is on the galaxy S20. It seems like this generation may also have a 6MP difference in pixels as well

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Samsung may be developing a new 150-megapixel sensor for flagship phones, according to a fresh rumor passed along via Twitter. It claims that the sensor has a footprint of around 1 inch and that it uses the same Nonacell technology that was employed by the Galaxy S20 Ultra’s ISOCELL Bright HM1 sensor. The rumor further suggests that Xiaomi will be the first third-party company to utilize the 150MP shooter in one of its flagship phones scheduled to be unveiled in Q4 2020. Other companies including Oppo and Vivo will supposedly employ the module in the first quarter of 2021. They’ll pair the sensor with the unannounced Qualcomm Snapdragon 875 chipset which will presumably beat at the heart of their premium models. Now, since the sensor is said to rely on Nonacell technology, it should combine nine pixels into one to achieve higher light absorption. And because the sensor is said to have a resolution of 150-megapixels, the final shots should technically have a pixel count of around 16MP, as opposed to the ISOCELL Bright HM1 sensor which delivers 12MP shots. It’s interesting to see how this camera technology is giving Samsung a real incentive to aim for a higher pixel count for its sensors. For the most part, the race for more pixels had slowly died off in recent years, but the introduction of Nonacell is seemingly reviving that philosophy, even though it may be doing so for different technical reasons. Samsung could be creating this sensor specifically for its clients in China; in other words, there’s no way to be certain that the Korean giant will use the same exact sensor in one of its future flagship phones such as the Galaxy Note 20 or Galaxy S21. But a variation of it, at least, is likely to be developed for Samsung’s own purposes.

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We might have arguably reached a point of saturation with smartphone specifications, charging and display tech, but aspects such as cameras still seem to have a lot of room for improvement. Or at least that’s what Xiaomi thinks if this tip is to be believed. Leakster Sudhanshu Ambhore took to Twitter to talk about how is already working on a phone with a 144MP camera and suggested that it might be the Mi CC10 Pro or the Mi 10S Pro, two models that we have heard nothing about till now. This news comes just days after we heard that Samsung is developing a successor to its 108MP ISOCELL Bright HMX image sensor, which will have a resolution of 150MP. 

 

We believe that this will end up being the same image sensor and might just be a case of rounding off the figures. While a higher resolution camera does not necessarily mean better images, it does bring a few technical benefits. For starters, it will be able to resort to 9 or 16-pixel binning without having to lose a lot of the resolution, and thus, detail. Combining pixels for a larger pixel size helps improve a camera’s low light sensitivity along with generally more vibrant and brighter images. For context, the Samsung Galaxy S20 Ultra employs Nonacell pixel binning to create pictures with a resultant resolution of 12MP with a pixel size of 2.4um. It also puts less strain on the sensor to light up each pixel, as smartphone sensors as already very small. The 108MP HMX image sensor, which is one of the biggest currently available, is also just 1/1.33-inches diagonally. The upcoming 144MP sensor is said to be almost 1-inch in size, which is comparable to point and shoot cameras. If we follow the same math, it will spew images at 16MP after Nonacell pixel binning. Xiaomi is already reported to be one of the first customers for this new image sensor and is targetting Q4 to bring it to the market. Last year’s Mi CC9 Pro was the first smartphone to sport Samsung’s 108MP camera, and it was announced in November. Taking that into account, it could be that the Mi CC10 Pro will continue that legacy in bringing the 144MP camera to the market.

Source: https://m.clien.net/service/board/park/14719309?od=&po=1&category=&groupCd=

https://www.sammobile.com/news/rumor-samsung-developing-150mp-nonacell-sensor-q4-2019/

https://www.techradar.com/news/the-first-144mp-camera-smartphone-could-come-from-xiaomi

Thoughts: At this rate phone memory and storage will rapidly become a concern, I do like high pixel photos but I prefer better colors more.

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*looking at 24MP pic from my dslr blown up to 80x60cm on my wall

*wondering what I would want more

*remembering the already huge data masses

*not caring anymore about such stuff

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Why don't they focus on making quality 32mp cameras or even a 12-16mp with a large sensor size and thus, larger pixels and better low-light performance? I look at 108mp phtotos from the S20 Ultra and they look sometimes less detailed and more blurry and overly noise reduced than compared to the same sensor spitting out a 12mp image. I compare that to my DSLR's photos and they don't come close to it in detail or sharpness despite its sensor having less than a third the mp count of the Samsung's, not to mention the fact that the plane of focus is so small on that 108mp camera too.

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The Nokia N95 8GB still has a better camera than the majority of modern smart phones...

 

Pixels =/= quality.

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Stupid, they should really improve all the other aspects to what make a camera a camera.

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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The old MP argument... suffice to say, to make use of them, do not think of them as if there were "more of the same". It will take a different mindset. In particular, not every pixel needs to be perfect. We're already well into the realms of computational photography. That is what you're feeding. Expecting one sensor pixel to equal one output pixel is quaint.

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26 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

actually i wonder if they make good sensors for depth mapping 🤔

No considering the new iPad has a LIDAR sensor on it

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
3 hours ago, KingCobra484 said:

Why don't they focus on making quality 32mp cameras or even a 12-16mp with a large sensor size and thus, larger pixels and better low-light performance? I look at 108mp phtotos from the S20 Ultra and they look sometimes less detailed and more blurry and overly noise reduced than compared to the same sensor spitting out a 12mp image.

These aren't intended to be used at full resolution. You can only get so much low light performance out of a sensor smaller than a house fly - having more pixels gives the software more information to correct the image and filter out noise.

5 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

yeah but does the sensor part benefit from more pixels? o_o

No, it's separate (though it also has a resolution). A LIDAR generates a 3D point cloud so it's not really comparable to a camera sensor.

41 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Stupid, they should really improve all the other aspects to what make a camera a camera.

Like what? They can't make the sensor bigger or have interchangeable lenses, nor can they have decent optical zoom aside from gimmicks like just slapping more sensors on the phone. Resolution and processing are the only areas where they can meaningfully improve.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

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More pixela vs larger ones, hmm I mean I wonder how much they can improve. Also depends in what situations. Good ptical zoom is neat but low light always will be more. 

We'll eventually have like who back of phone dedicated to huge sensor and maybe motorized leses haha. 

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All these complaints are reasonable guys, but the most important counterpoint would be that this is a HUGE sensor (for a cell phone)

 

Like damn boys at 1" the pixel pitch shouldn't be much smaller than the current 108 mega-binning devices (scaled up the current would be around 144MP), and presuming you can limit crosstalk, there are significant mathematical benefits to higher binning ratios and the resulting error correction. 

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Posted
1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Like what? They can't make the sensor bigger or have interchangeable lenses, nor can they have decent optical zoom aside from gimmicks like just slapping more sensors on the phone. Resolution and processing are the only areas where they can meaningfully improve.

Why do you say they can't? That's the whole point of innovating and making new tech. It was impossible the day before but today it's not 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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Posted
21 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Why do you say they can't?

The distance from the lens is too small.

21 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

That's the whole point of innovating and making new tech. It was impossible the day before but today it's not 

Unless something changes drastically in lens technology they can't break the laws of physics.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

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Just now, Sauron said:

The distance from the lens is too small.

Unless something changes drastically in lens technology they can't break the laws of physics.

Side mounting offers some novel ways around some of those issues when you accept a certain device thickness. But it is worth noting, this sensor is bigger than anything before (well almost anything), at 1". Pretty crazy stuff actually, and the pixel pitch should therefore be darn similar to the current 108 versions.

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5 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Side mounting offers some novel ways around some of those issues when you accept a certain device thickness. But it is worth noting, this sensor is bigger than anything before (well almost anything), at 1". Pretty crazy stuff actually, and the pixel pitch should therefore be darn similar to the current 108 versions.

We'll have to see how thick the camera zone is, it's kind of a given that the camera sticks out the back nowadays. Still, 1" as you said is already huge for a phone and yet it's not even close to even a low end mirrorless - going for a slightly larger area without further improvements probably wouldn't be worth it.

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Posted

 

6 hours ago, VegetableStu said:

4x * 3x = 150,000,000

12x2  =150000000

x2 = 12,500,000

x <= 3536

in 16 x 9 that roughly equal a 17K monitor to display that lol.

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10 hours ago, williamcll said:

XiaoMi as well as Samsung are working on the next generation of main camera sensors with an even higher pixel density, [...]

Are you sure about that?  The 108 MP one was already 0.8 µm, which is tied with many other phones for the lowest I've ever seen, and there's a reason for that.  Red light is not much shorter so if you want to be able to see it, there's a certain threshold you really can't go under.  If they do make this even higher MP, it's going to need to simply be a larger sensor, but with the same density.  Not that that's a bad thing, just saying.

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20 hours ago, GreyestGoat said:

The Nokia N95 8GB still has a better camera than the majority of modern smart phones...

 

Pixels =/= quality.

would love to see Nokia relaunch this one as their next dumbphone, the 5310 xpressmusic is cool but the N95 would legitimately be epic. And maybe just as an easter egg, load it up with the OG N-Gage games

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21 hours ago, GreyestGoat said:

The Nokia N95 8GB still has a better camera than the majority of modern smart phones...

 

Pixels =/= quality.

Lets see (if anybody cares)

(forum wont allow me to embed photos from OnePlus 6T as well... so Ill just add links)

https://imgur.com/PhGLFkz

https://imgur.com/ZRsfni3

 

NOKIA N95 8GB (5MP camera)

 

 


08082011457.thumb.jpg.fb3bfaca63da7b0db5fd7c27d9ce91bf.jpg

08082011460.thumb.jpg.3f315a993055c8d9077c22c1bdd8e470.jpg
 

 

NOKIA Lumia 920 (8MP Camera)

 

 


WP_20140726_10_14_04_Pro.thumb.jpg.205628e39d64ecb2bcb0ba66ee27cc94.jpg

WP_20140809_12_43_32_Pro.thumb.jpg.0237d1fe037eedda797e09719a960324.jpg
 

 

Huawei Mate 8 (16MP camera)

 

 


IMG_20160716_110054.thumb.jpg.7d00b48d3d4c39c553d16d90ef995a31.jpg

IMG_20160714_165531.thumb.jpg.e58e5086c7f93c8e558746ab0a5bbef7.jpg
 

 

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1 hour ago, WereCat said:

Lets see (if anybody cares)

(forum wont allow me to embed photos from OnePlus 6T as well... so Ill just add links)

https://imgur.com/PhGLFkz

https://imgur.com/ZRsfni3

 

NOKIA N95 8GB (5MP camera)

  Hide contents

 


08082011457.thumb.jpg.fb3bfaca63da7b0db5fd7c27d9ce91bf.jpg

08082011460.thumb.jpg.3f315a993055c8d9077c22c1bdd8e470.jpg
 

 

NOKIA Lumia 920 (8MP Camera)

  Hide contents

 


WP_20140726_10_14_04_Pro.thumb.jpg.205628e39d64ecb2bcb0ba66ee27cc94.jpg

WP_20140809_12_43_32_Pro.thumb.jpg.0237d1fe037eedda797e09719a960324.jpg
 

 

Huawei Mate 8 (16MP camera)

  Hide contents

 


IMG_20160716_110054.thumb.jpg.7d00b48d3d4c39c553d16d90ef995a31.jpg

IMG_20160714_165531.thumb.jpg.e58e5086c7f93c8e558746ab0a5bbef7.jpg
 

 

Quite impressive huh for 2008? There is barely any real significant difference.

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10 minutes ago, GreyestGoat said:

Quite impressive huh for 2008? There is barely any real significant difference.

when there is enough light its fine, in low light its quite bad though compared to modern phones

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Just shows how smartphones are so boring now manufacturers have to think of SOMETHING to market.

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3 hours ago, WereCat said:

Lets see (if anybody cares)

(forum wont allow me to embed photos from OnePlus 6T as well... so Ill just add links)

https://imgur.com/PhGLFkz

https://imgur.com/ZRsfni3

 

NOKIA N95 8GB (5MP camera)

  Reveal hidden contents

 


08082011457.thumb.jpg.fb3bfaca63da7b0db5fd7c27d9ce91bf.jpg

08082011460.thumb.jpg.3f315a993055c8d9077c22c1bdd8e470.jpg
 

 

NOKIA Lumia 920 (8MP Camera)

  Reveal hidden contents

 


WP_20140726_10_14_04_Pro.thumb.jpg.205628e39d64ecb2bcb0ba66ee27cc94.jpg

WP_20140809_12_43_32_Pro.thumb.jpg.0237d1fe037eedda797e09719a960324.jpg
 

 

Huawei Mate 8 (16MP camera)

  Reveal hidden contents

 


IMG_20160716_110054.thumb.jpg.7d00b48d3d4c39c553d16d90ef995a31.jpg

IMG_20160714_165531.thumb.jpg.e58e5086c7f93c8e558746ab0a5bbef7.jpg
 

 

as long as there is a lot of light it's still a good camera, but then you look the one taken under the shade ant it becomes a lot more noisy.

Should give another trip to Prague, been almost a decade since the last time.

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With the density limit that we've been at for quite a while now in mind, some other interesting things come up once you think about what it implies.

 

For one, to continue increasing resolution, they will have no choice but to make the sensor larger.  As a result, a MP war, if there will continue to be one, really just means a sensor size war, and that really will result in better images.  Most phones these days already take fairly good pictures given enough light, but this generally means being in broad daylight outside on a sunny day.  Being able to gather more will help this so they can operate at their best indoors, etc.  A larger sensor also means more natural background blur without having to resort to crappy filters.

 

Next, consider that there are practical limitations on the ratio between lens length and sensor size.  The sensor can only be so big before the lens must also be larger/longer.  This means that unless phones and/or camera bumps start getting a lot thicker, there is essentially a maximum size, and thus a maximum resolution that will be reached at some point, perhaps soon.

 

Don't think this means cameras will stop improving however.  One important factor that will continue to advance (albeit slowly since it's somewhat akin to IPC on a CPU and takes time and careful engineering to improve rather than more physical things that you can just throw at the problem by sacrificing other factors) is light sensitivity - how much a sensor of a certain size can pick up, and with how little noise.  Then there's improvements in optics to consider, as well as (and this is perhaps the largest, at least in the phone market) image processing.

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Posted

Why not just a 24.2 megapixel camera in a phone with a physically much larger sensor?

GPU: XFX RX 7900 XTX

CPU: Ryzen 7 7800X3D

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