Linus missing the mark

[harls]

9 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Not really, you can always get game pass which is the same cost as a couple of Full price games a year. If you want to buy games on PC at launch it’s the same price and games like CoD are on Battle.net now and don’t drop in price often and by very little if they do.

 

Take Borderlands 3 for example, just come onto steam and was on a 50% sale for the first few days, I bought the GoTY edition or whatever they’re calling it for £40, the base game was £25. I can get the base game for £23 all the time on amazon for console or £25 at game new. £15 preowned. 
 

 

And if you don’t want to play online then why pay the fee? You get free games with it anyway. 

Last week you could buy the steam version of Borderlands 3 GOTY for $13.99.  

[Lord Vile]

14 hours ago, Sauron said:

Anything from free software to royalty free music to public domain books.

I doubt you can find reliable statistics on that but either way that's irrelevant - torrenting is not inherently illegal.

Would the devs be making money from someone who otherwise wouldn't buy the game or would buy it from a key reseller who got it from a keygen?

 

Also again, arbitrary distinction that is disconnected from legality considerations.

You mean things that are generally found free on services found on the kindle, Apple Books, various music services? 
 

Obviously finding stats would be near impossible but if you have to torrent something normally it’s because it’s not available in a less shady manner. 
 

A new game more than likely, someone’s already paid for the key and not used it so they’ve already made money there. 
 

Not really, if the devs made them available to buy why would people have to find the ROMs from elsewhere? 

[Lord Vile]

13 hours ago, harls said:

Last week you could buy the steam version of Borderlands 3 GOTY for $13.99.  

Key reseller which is shady.

[Sauron]

1 hour ago, Lord Vile said:

You mean things that are generally found free on services found on the kindle, Apple Books, various music services? 

Sometimes, yes. I don't know about you but hopping between half a dozen services and accounts to get public domain stuff isn't exactly ideal imo.

1 hour ago, Lord Vile said:

Obviously finding stats would be near impossible but if you have to torrent something normally it’s because it’s not available in a less shady manner. 

Says you - and there's nothing shady about torrenting legal things. Peer to peer is often faster than regular server hosting unless you're a huge corporation.

1 hour ago, Lord Vile said:

A new game more than likely, someone’s already paid for the key and not used it so they’ve already made money there. 

So you're telling me someone bought game keys in bulk at full price on launch day and then sold them at a 40% discount on the same day? Unlikely to say the least. What happened is they bought them in bulk in a different region where prices are lower and are reselling them elsewhere for a profit which directly undermines legitimate local sales and fills the pocket of some sleazy middle man who did nothing to earn it.

1 hour ago, Lord Vile said:

Not really, if the devs made them available to buy why would people have to find the ROMs from elsewhere? 

Irrelevant, the laws that allow this to happen are the same laws that make piracy illegal. You either think the copyright holder should have full control over the work, in which case it's perfectly within their right to remove it from the market and sue you for downloading it from elsewhere, or you don't, in which case DRM as a concept needs to go and redistribution should not be illegal.

[Lord Vile]

52 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Sometimes, yes. I don't know about you but hopping between half a dozen services and accounts to get public domain stuff isn't exactly ideal imo.

Says you - and there's nothing shady about torrenting legal things. Peer to peer is often faster than regular server hosting unless you're a huge corporation.

So you're telling me someone bought game keys in bulk at full price on launch day and then sold them at a 40% discount on the same day? Unlikely to say the least. What happened is they bought them in bulk in a different region where prices are lower and are reselling them elsewhere for a profit which directly undermines legitimate local sales and fills the pocket of some sleazy middle man who did nothing to earn it.

Irrelevant, the laws that allow this to happen are the same laws that make piracy illegal. You either think the copyright holder should have full control over the work, in which case it's perfectly within their right to remove it from the market and sue you for downloading it from elsewhere, or you don't, in which case DRM as a concept needs to go and redistribution should not be illegal.

Apart from it’s not hard... what’s harder, downloading a book to your kindle or iPad or searching for a torrent, finding a torrent, downloading it to a pc, converting it into a file that’s recognised by whatever you want to read it on and the swapping it across, assuming you can. 
 

 

Apart from games are generally the same price globally. Nowhere really sells physical media anymore for PC games. Steam in India is priced similarly to steam in Europe and a lot of games are region locked. A lot of keys on sites are people who don’t want a key as part of an offer and just sell it instead. I’ve done it before, though you can get scammed when buying.

 

Hey all the ROMS I have I own the game of, just don’t fancy carting a PS3 everywhere. Personally I think of you have software that you pull and have no intention of redistributing then you can’t blame people for getting it other ways. Whilst it’s for sale though you should buy the software. 

[Sauron]

44 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Apart from it’s not hard... what’s harder, downloading a book to your kindle or iPad or searching for a torrent, finding a torrent, downloading it to a pc, converting it into a file that’s recognised by whatever you want to read it on and the swapping it across, assuming you can. 

You'd be surprised. Regardless, what does ease of use have to do with legality?

45 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Apart from games are generally the same price globally.

Incorrect. Even if that were true it would only make my argument better since the only way to sell keys at a lower price on launch day and make a profit would be with a key generator.

47 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Hey all the ROMS I have I own the game of, just don’t fancy carting a PS3 everywhere. Personally I think of you have software that you pull and have no intention of redistributing then you can’t blame people for getting it other ways.

I don't care what you think personally, that's not what the law says. There are no such exceptions to the rights of the copyright holder. Again, if you have a problem with the copyright holders having complete control over the distribution of the work then you have a problem with copyright itself.

 

Also you seemed pretty adamant about it being ILLEGAL before, what happened to that?

[Lord Vile]

50 minutes ago, Sauron said:

You'd be surprised. Regardless, what does ease of use have to do with legality?

Incorrect. Even if that were true it would only make my argument better since the only way to sell keys at a lower price on launch day and make a profit would be with a key generator.

I don't care what you think personally, that's not what the law says. There are no such exceptions to the rights of the copyright holder. Again, if you have a problem with the copyright holders having complete control over the distribution of the work then you have a problem with copyright itself.

 

Also you seemed pretty adamant about it being ILLEGAL before, what happened to that?

You brought up ease of use. 
 

Ok then show me where a game is cheaper on steam than say America or the UK. 
 

It is, in an argument of what is cheaper you shouldn’t be using illegal methods to lower price, same as when you could hack consoles fairly easily to run pirated games.

[WereCatf]

20 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

What else is torrenting used for exactly?

Just to butt in a little, a lot of the free stuff you can find around the Internet is also offered as a torrent in addition to regular downloads because torrents help take some of the load off of their servers and can help them save a little on bandwidth-costs. Torrents also often provide faster speeds, especially for groups who can't afford beefy servers and even beefier Internet-connections. These are the reasons why e.g. most Linux-distros offer their downloads as torrents as well.

[Lord Vile]

Just now, WereCatf said:

Just to butt in a little, a lot of the free stuff you can find around the Internet is also offered as a torrent in addition to regular downloads because torrents help take some of the load off of their servers and can help them save a little on bandwidth-costs. Torrents also often provide faster speeds, especially for groups who can't afford beefy servers and even beefier Internet-connections. These are the reasons why e.g. most Linux-distros offer their downloads as torrents as well.

Is a minority car though, Linux is only a tiny minority of users and server space has become cheaper to rent 

[WereCatf]

Just now, Lord Vile said:

Is a minority car though, Linux is only a tiny minority of users and server space has become cheaper to rent 

I just simply answered your question, I didn't say anything about what is in the minority or what isn't.

[Sauron]

20 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

You brought up ease of use. 

No, you asked why people would use it and I told you. If you don't think it's easier then good for you, it's irrelevant to the discussion.

21 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Ok then show me where a game is cheaper on steam than say America or the UK. 

Russia for example. https://www.pcgamer.com/the-weird-ecomomics-behind-steam-prices-around-the-world/2/

24 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

It is, in an argument of what is cheaper you shouldn’t be using illegal methods to lower price, same as when you could hack consoles fairly easily to run pirated games.

You said torrenting is illegal, which is objectively false in most of the world. You also drew a line between pirating a game that is available for purchase and one that isn't as well as between buying from a key reseller on day one and pirating yourself, which is an inconsistent position to take - even game publishers would rather you pirate their game than buy it from a reseller. I never said anything about consoles. Don't try to move the goalpost.

15 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

server space has become cheaper to rent 

Peer to peer is still cheaper and we're talking about non profit projects that give away their work for free. But again, how many people use it is irrelevant as to whether or not it's illegal. Why are you clutching at straws so hard to defend a point that is so blatantly wrong? Torrenting is not inherently illegal, period.

[harls]

6 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Key reseller which is shady.

From Chrono.gg not a G2A type site.  They get keys from the developers to sell.  A different game every day at a large discount. Sites like this and Humble Bundle can have you save a TON over console games.  Then you have Epic giving away games. 

 

I just spent $30 on Humble Bundle and got Hollow Knight, Undertale, Dasrksiders, Darksiders II, and VVVVVV all games I was planning on getting on switch.  It also came with games I hadn't planned on purchasing such as Into the Breach, Wizard of Legend, TABS, The witness, Superhot, Lego Batman 3, Killing Floor, Farenheit Indigo Prophecy, Sniper Elite II, This is the Police, Jackbox Partypack 2, Stick fight, Brothers, Party Hard, Worms Revolution, Europa Universalis IV, Tropico 4, GNOG, Broken Age, Brutal Legends, Psychonauts, Double Fine Adventure, Pacman Championship Addition 2, Pikuniku, World of Goo, Super Hexagon, Hacknet, Morticians Tale, A good snowman to build, Magicka, Rebuild 3, Agents of Mayhem, Ducati 90th anniversary, Speed Brawl, Hiveswap, Alien Spidy, Stealth inc 2, Lost winds, and Zombotron, 

 

Just the games that I was planning on buying on the switch it would have cost me easily double what I paid.  I averaged paying 75 cents per game.  Yes some of the games are not great but there are plenty of good games in the bunch. 

[RonnieOP]

7 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

 

Obviously finding stats would be near impossible but if you have to torrent something normally it’s because it’s not available in a less shady manner. 

This is not true at all.

 

There is software devs who release their free product to download via a torrent client

 

The last time i was looking at linux distros a bunch had torrent downloads. A torrent is just a means to download something. 

 

Downloading via a torrent isnt shady. You just think it is because you didnt know that theres a huge difference between using a torrent client and piracy.

 

 

[DarthEoin]

5 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Is a minority car though, Linux is only a tiny minority of users and server space has become cheaper to rent 

I hope you relise windows uses a form of torinting to download windows updates faster. it's called delivery optimisation. also consoles probably use a form of torrent to download games and updates as well

[Brooksie359]

23 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

Apart from it’s not hard... what’s harder, downloading a book to your kindle or iPad or searching for a torrent, finding a torrent, downloading it to a pc, converting it into a file that’s recognised by whatever you want to read it on and the swapping it across, assuming you can. 
 

 

Apart from games are generally the same price globally. Nowhere really sells physical media anymore for PC games. Steam in India is priced similarly to steam in Europe and a lot of games are region locked. A lot of keys on sites are people who don’t want a key as part of an offer and just sell it instead. I’ve done it before, though you can get scammed when buying.

 

Hey all the ROMS I have I own the game of, just don’t fancy carting a PS3 everywhere. Personally I think of you have software that you pull and have no intention of redistributing then you can’t blame people for getting it other ways. Whilst it’s for sale though you should buy the software. 

What you would torrent would be open source stuff for the most part like game mods which aren't illegal. Also open source software is another one that can be tormented. I had a friend in college who would torren legal open source software fairly often.