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Sustainable subzero overclocking

I have an idea for constant subzero overclock. As we all know the biggest problem with going sub is the buildup of moisture. Why not just remove the air and water out of the equation by submerging the system in a non-conductive liquid. With this the temp can be dropped far below zero and maintained. What are yalls thoughts?  

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Hello and welcome.

 

I think the condensation problem may still persist.  I'd guess the fluid will eventually mix with water and you'd find yourself unaware to what degree that has happened.  

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freezing tempurature of mineral oil is -4c (24 freedom units)

 

you would have issues trying to maintain sub zero in this condition

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10 minutes ago, FratChad said:

I have an idea for constant subzero overclock. As we all know the biggest problem with going sub is the buildup of moisture. Why not just remove the air and water out of the equation by submerging the system in a non-conductive liquid. With this the temp can be dropped far below zero and maintained. What are yalls thoughts?  

Is this fluid going to have a freezing point lower or higher than whatever temp your pulling the system down to? If its higher... your going to get frozen liquid, conductive or not, that will damage lots of stuff since it will start to expand as it freezes.

 

If this is somehow not the case and the fluid froze far bellow the temp your trying to achieve, yes, your condensation issue would likely be solved. But I guess the question is, "but why"? You will only get real OC gains if you can pull the chip down A LOT, and that won't be possible with anything short of LN2. Sure, a -10c CPU will OC better, but not at all enough to make this all worth it. As a thought experiment, not bad tho. I think your main issue would be the freezing issue. 

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2 minutes ago, LIGISTX said:

Is this fluid going to have a freezing point lower or higher than whatever temp your pulling the system down to? If its higher... your going to get frozen liquid, conductive or not, that will damage lots of stuff since it will start to expand as it freezes.

 

If this is somehow not the case and the fluid froze far bellow the temp your trying to achieve, yes, your condensation issue would likely be solved. But I guess the question is, "but why"? You will only get real OC gains if you can pull the chip down A LOT, and that won't be possible with anything short of LN2. Sure, a -10c CPU will OC better, but not at all enough to make this all worth it. As a thought experiment, not bad tho. I think your main issue would be the freezing issue. 

Couldn’t you just increase the salinity of the coolant, or use concentrated automotive coolant at the mix ratio required to not freeze at a given temp?

 

Actually, there’s a thought. As Salt adds to the physical and thermal density of water, would salt water cool better than distilled water, all else being equal?

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3 minutes ago, LIGISTX said:

Is this fluid going to have a freezing point lower or higher than whatever temp your pulling the system down to? If its higher... your going to get frozen liquid, conductive or not, that will damage lots of stuff since it will start to expand as it freezes.

 

If this is somehow not the case and the fluid froze far bellow the temp your trying to achieve, yes, your condensation issue would likely be solved. But I guess the question is, "but why"? You will only get real OC gains if you can pull the chip down A LOT, and that won't be possible with anything short of LN2. Sure, a -10c CPU will OC better, but not at all enough to make this all worth it. As a thought experiment, not bad tho. I think your main issue would be the freezing issue. 

True, you have a point. I guess it would be an experiment build just for the fun of it. 

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2 minutes ago, Cavalry Canuck said:

Couldn’t you just increase the salinity of the coolant, or use concentrated automotive coolant at the mix ratio required to not freeze at a given temp?

 

Actually, there’s a thought. As Salt adds to the physical and thermal density of water, would salt water cool better than distilled water, all else being equal?

If you really wanted to go wild with it you could use mercury as a coolant since the freezing temp is well below -30°C

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14 minutes ago, Tsuki said:

freezing tempurature of mineral oil is -4c (24 freedom units)

 

you would have issues trying to maintain sub zero in this condition

I think that if one was able to fill all opening on the board with a sort of anti conductive wax then the freezing issue wouldnt be much of a problem since once its frozen nothing can be mixed into it moisture wise 

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9 minutes ago, Cavalry Canuck said:

Couldn’t you just increase the salinity of the coolant, or use concentrated automotive coolant at the mix ratio required to not freeze at a given temp?

 

Actually, there’s a thought. As Salt adds to the physical and thermal density of water, would salt water cool better than distilled water, all else being equal?

I am pretty sure adding salt would make it instantly conductive, and I assume, may be wrong, but isn't antifreeze also conductive..? 

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1 minute ago, LIGISTX said:

I am pretty sure adding salt would make it instantly conductive, and I assume, may be wrong, but isn't antifreeze also conductive..? 

Both are true. But conductivity is only an issue if you have a leak. Besides, conductive or not, chances are your components are ruined if your loop does spring a leak. My biggest concern suggesting either was if they would cause unusual corrosion?

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14 minutes ago, FratChad said:

If you really wanted to go wild with it you could use mercury as a coolant since the freezing temp is well below -30°C

Mercury doesn’t have the same thermal exchange properties as water. Specific heat per gram is significantly lower. Even with the much higher density, it would still need to be far colder than water to provide an equivalent cooling effect.

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5 minutes ago, Cavalry Canuck said:

Both are true. But conductivity is only an issue if you have a leak. Besides, conductive or not, chances are your components are ruined if your loop does spring a leak. My biggest concern suggesting either was if they would cause unusual corrosion?

With the salt it would definitely cause unusually fast corrosion to any metal components. 

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Good point. I did not think of that. 

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15 minutes ago, Cavalry Canuck said:

Both are true. But conductivity is only an issue if you have a leak. Besides, conductive or not, chances are your components are ruined if your loop does spring a leak. My biggest concern suggesting either was if they would cause unusual corrosion?

Metal will go real fast, but the idea here was dunk the entire system in a fluid that wasn't conductive... And if that fluid froze, it would expand and start expanding under the components etc and pop them off. 

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2 minutes ago, LIGISTX said:

Metal will go real fast, but the idea here was dunk the entire system in a fluid that wasn't conductive... And if that fluid froze, it would expand and start expanding under the components etc and pop them off. 

Oh shit. I thought the discussion was for a decent sub-zero coolant whilst the system was submerged in a separate fluid to prevent condensation. My bad.

 

Having been educated, I have a different concern. How would you circulate this fluid effectively? Even using pumps with hoses pointed right at the components requiring active cooling, it still wouldn’t be as efficient as a self-contained, pressurized fluid loop.

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9 minutes ago, Cavalry Canuck said:

Oh shit. I thought the discussion was for a decent sub-zero coolant whilst the system was submerged in a separate fluid to prevent condensation. My bad.

 

Having been educated, I have a different concern. How would you circulate this fluid effectively? Even using pumps with hoses pointed right at the components requiring active cooling, it still wouldn’t be as efficient as a self-contained, pressurized fluid loop.

That... is the idea. lol.

 

I am saying the fluid its submerged in needs to not freeze which is the issue. My argument here is if the fluid the PC is submerged in starts to freeze, yes, no condensation issues, but big time expansion issues. The fluid the PC is submerged in will be all around it, in ever nook and cranny, which includes between surface mount components, in the mobo holes, etc etc. As that starts to freeze, it could easily start pushing parts off the mobo, expanding the PCIe slots etc. That is my concern here. And you can't add salt to it as that will make it conductive.

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the only solution is to use a liquid that has it freezing point well below your working temperatures.

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1 hour ago, FratChad said:

I have an idea for constant subzero overclock. As we all know the biggest problem with going sub is the buildup of moisture. Why not just remove the air and water out of the equation by submerging the system in a non-conductive liquid. With this the temp can be dropped far below zero and maintained. What are yalls thoughts?  

 This was a way that it was done.

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12 minutes ago, LIGISTX said:

That... is the idea. lol.

 

I am saying the fluid its submerged in needs to not freeze which is the issue. My argument here is if the fluid the PC is submerged in starts to freeze, yes, no condensation issues, but big time expansion issues. The fluid the PC is submerged in will be all around it, in ever nook and cranny, which includes between surface mount components, in the mobo holes, etc etc. As that starts to freeze, it could easily start pushing parts off the mobo, expanding the PCIe slots etc. That is my concern here. And you can't add salt to it as that will make it conductive.

In that case, I still think you’d be fine to use a pump/impeller to generally circulate the suspension fluid, even if the cooling system components are a little bit below the freezing point of the suspension fluid. Just because the CPU is at a certain temp doesn’t mean components near it will be, nor will  the fluid drop below it’s  freezing point, migrate under your Mosfets, and then decide to freeze.

 

Hell, depending on how the OP plans to chill his coolant, he could use some of the excess heat “generated” by that process to heat the suspension fluid. Obviously there would be trade-offs with this idea. But a stable state could be achieved where your coolant is colder than the freezing point of your suspension fluid, but the suspension fluid still doesn’t freeze.

 

 

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Easy, just freeze the whole system over. Moisture conducts electricity, ice doesn't.

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1 minute ago, Jurrunio said:

Easy, just freeze the whole system over. Moisture conducts electricity, ice doesn't.

If nothing else, the MOSFETs would thaw the ice locally. Then you’re fucked.

 

What about Alcohol?

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3 minutes ago, Cavalry Canuck said:

If nothing else, the MOSFETs would thaw the ice locally. Then you’re fucked.

 

What about Alcohol?

use vodka

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3 minutes ago, Cavalry Canuck said:

If nothing else, the MOSFETs would thaw the ice locally. Then you’re fucked.

if that happens, you didnt give mosfets (more like powerstages, plz dont do this with cheaper boards) enough cooling

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19 minutes ago, Danioki said:

use vodka

I’m sure you meant that as a joke, but no. Talking filling the case full of Isopropyl Alcohol.

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On 3/9/2020 at 10:24 PM, Jurrunio said:

if that happens, you didnt give mosfets (more like powerstages, plz dont do this with cheaper boards) enough cooling

You’d get sufficient cooling with the stock mobo heatsinks if you use a circulated fluid. It’s impossible to liquid cool every component that produces heat conventionally. 

 

Your ice would have to be pretty damn cold for there to be no melt in contact with one of these uncooled heat-producing components/areas.

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