Xbox Series X will have dedicated sound card

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, JZStudios said:

I... I don't... I honestly... I... I don't understand... where you think I said anything like that anywhere. I'm genuinely confused as to how you could've interpreted anything I've said to be like that. Like... just... at all. Nothing I said was remotely close to that.

I related my understanding of your statement.  There seems to be a failure of communication then.

 

1 hour ago, JZStudios said:

No, there was never a reliability issue. It's really exceptionally simple. Let me explain it like this;

My dad is a mechanical engineer. He uses CNC machines and does a lot of CNC work. The program he uses is old, and as such he keeps an old WinXP machine around, because the software doesn't work on Win7 and he doesn't want to pay another $8-16,000 for new software that works for Win7. He didn't lose reliability, the software didn't suddenly stop working for him, MS just moved forward with an operating system that broke compatibility. There's zero reliability issues. Nothing about CNC code, the way it works, or anything about any of it has changed. MS simply progressed forward and broke compatibility.

 

It's really, really, really simple. It's frustrating how you keep saying it's a reliability issue or that people somehow in the past 15 years have devolved in how they hear. You can still boot up a WinXP machine with the proper hardware and have it work 100%. It's a really just... fucking simple concept. Nowhere did ANYONE say that it's a reliability issue, or even insinuate as much. At best I've said that since MS broke support there's been software emulators, kind of like how there's console emulators like Dolphin and PCSX2 on the PC. Everyone is in agreement that the software emulator isn't as good as the original dedicated hardware and source code. It's a really simple concept.

 

And once again, it's not user age. We haven't devolved to a single ear in the past 15 years, it's just a technology that MS deprecated and thus died out. It's a really fucking simple concept. There's no reliability issues or "sometimes it works but not really."

 

I'd recommend you to watch this video, and if you have a PC to download the demo and check it out for yourself.

 

Yes. I understand what an OS system breakage is.  I know what you are saying happened.  I’m not contesting that you said that.  Im not even disagreeing that I could have happened.  I’m saying that it seems to me that that explanation is assumptive.  It’s a “well this is what must have happened”. I am saying yes, it’s what could have happened.  It seems possible from  what I am seeing here that this other thing might have happened instead.  It seems to fit the anecdotal stuff here just as well.  Doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the case. I don’t know that it did.  
 

to define what I mean by reliabilty issue.  There are people who said it worked long ago but does not work now.  that’s it. That’s all.
 

One explanation for that IS  that the software used changed.  It’s not the ONLY thing that changed though.  The users also got older.  Hearing degrades with time. Bones change density.  Tendons ossify.  Age is a thing.

it’s not a “single ear” thing.  That’s idiotic. Single ear would be 1d. We already know that it is at least 2d. Bog standard stereo is 2d.  Right and left would remain unaffected.  It’s the forward and behind 3d stuff that differentiates 3d “gamer audio” from standard 2d stereo and requires all the fancy processing.  It’s “does this complicated model involving echoes and whatnot still work as hearing changes over time”. It might.  That some people have to have specific setups made for them in a lab though implies it may not be all that general though.

 

  I’m not saying it IS the reason this happened.  I’m saying from what has been shown here it’s as possible as the other.  There would be ways to test it.  The video might not be a bad one.  You offer a video that requires headphones as an example.  I don’t have headphones available so I can’t check myself.  I’m willing to accept that it does though.  Sound does appear to change location on a more than right and left way.  I did watch it on my phone which was unsurprisingly useless, but from what I saw the way it appears to work is the ball in the center is the virtual sound source and as the camera rotates the sound appears to emanate from where the ball would be.  Lacking ability to test I am willing to take it as a given that it is indeed what happens.  I’m not sure it’s a super test as the ball is a visual cue.  A better test would be random noises from random directions with a methodology to poll the listener as to whether the direction they think the sound came from is accurate. The whole visual indicator breaks it as a test. The visual cues would be enough to create expectation.  Doesn’t mean it doesn’t work though.

[Kisai]

20 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Just had a thought regarding 3d sound.

One of the things that makes it seem so iffy is apparently it used to work but doesn’t anymore or something.  What if it’s not the system that lost it but the people.  Might maybe need to be a certain age for 3d sound to work? 

No, nothing of the sort. 3D positional audio is some very complex math, and what is probably being proposed is a form of "Audio ray tracing" to make a succinct point.

 

By comparison early GPU's were called 3D cards. Not "3D, but on a 2D surface" vs "3D but with stereographic HMD" by comparison to a video card. If I were to wager a guess, this could be one of the features (standard 3d positional audio) to eventually make VR not hot garbage. Even before 3D, they were still called graphics accelerators because ye old ISA cards with 512KB of ram could barely push 640x480 pixels with 256 colors. 256KB was not sufficient, but that's what many cards came with. 

 

Sound cards however went from music-only (Adlib/PSG's), to DAC-only (Amiga), to Music+DAC, to Music+DSP+DAC (AWE cards, though budget versions didn't have the DSP) to 3d positional audio (twice) and then it was utterly gutted from Windows along with Midi support (DirectMusic and the midi control panel are long gone, but you can still use the hardware synth on Audigy/x-fi cards.) We've been rolling backwards for a while, so PC audio only improved the DAC aspect and the rest rotted.

 

AC97 gave us a standard 16-bit 48Khz audio. Intel HD Audio (2004), gave us 32bit, 192khz audio (but many chips don't support either.) No improvements have otherwise happened, though the HDA stuff supports hardware mixing. Creative labs haven't really changed their hardware either. The Audigy, and Audigy Rx (2013) are pretty much the same card as the earlier Live (1999) was, with PCIe models having PCI bridge chips on them. Honestly we might still be 2-5 years away from all of creative's patents expiring on the Audigy cards. 

 

https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2002071797A2/en

Quote

A method and system for simulating a 3d sound environment

 

The invention provides a method for simulating a 3D sound environment in an audio system using an at least two-channel reproduction device, the method including generating first and second pseudo head-related transfer function (HRTF) data, first using at least one speaker and then using headphones; dividing the first and second frequency representation of the data or using a deconvolution operator on the time domain representation of the first and second data, or subtracting the cepstrum representation of the first and second data, and using the results of the division or subtraction to prepare filters having an impulse response operable to initiate natural sounds of a remote speaker for preparing at least two filters connectable to the system in the audio path from an audio source to sound reproduction devices to be used by a listener.

Cited by 46 other patents that are not expiring yet, yeesh.

[Bombastinator]

53 minutes ago, BlackManINC said:

Man, all this interesting talk about the nuances of audio over what is apparently a rumor at best. If this proves anything, it is that I am indeed "the most interesting man in the world". 

It morphed into something unrelated, namely the nature of “gamer audio” and how well it actually simulates 3d sound using headphones.  Started as far as I can tell with a deviation regarding “audiophile audio” vs “gamer audio”

[Bombastinator]

19 minutes ago, Kisai said:

No, nothing of the sort. 3D positional audio is some very complex math, and what is probably being proposed is a form of "Audio ray tracing" to make a succinct point.

 

By comparison early GPU's were called 3D cards. Not "3D, but on a 2D surface" vs "3D but with stereographic HMD" by comparison to a video card. If I were to wager a guess, this could be one of the features (standard 3d positional audio) to eventually make VR not hot garbage. Even before 3D, they were still called graphics accelerators because ye old ISA cards with 512KB of ram could barely push 640x480 pixels with 256 colors. 256KB was not sufficient, but that's what many cards came with. 

 

Sound cards however went from music-only (Adlib/PSG's), to DAC-only (Amiga), to Music+DAC, to Music+DSP+DAC (AWE cards, though budget versions didn't have the DSP) to 3d positional audio (twice) and then it was utterly gutted from Windows along with Midi support (DirectMusic and the midi control panel are long gone, but you can still use the hardware synth on Audigy/x-fi cards.) We've been rolling backwards for a while, so PC audio only improved the DAC aspect and the rest rotted.

 

AC97 gave us a standard 16-bit 48Khz audio. Intel HD Audio (2004), gave us 32bit, 192khz audio (but many chips don't support either.) No improvements have otherwise happened, though the HDA stuff supports hardware mixing. Creative labs haven't really changed their hardware either. The Audigy, and Audigy Rx (2013) are pretty much the same card as the earlier Live (1999) was, with PCIe models having PCI bridge chips on them. Honestly we might still be 2-5 years away from all of creative's patents expiring on the Audigy cards. 

 

https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2002071797A2/en

Cited by 46 other patents that are not expiring yet, yeesh.

So PCs can’t actually do “gamer 3d audio” to begin with because they don’t have the hardware.  While it does exist and has for some time it was locked out of the PC ecosystem, (but put back using certain games?) and this new board perportedly being put in the new Xboxes may or may not even do it in the first place?

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

So PCs can’t actually do “gamer 3d audio” to begin with because they don’t have the hardware.  While it does exist and has for some time it was locked out of the PC ecosystem, (but put back using certain games?) and this new board perportedly being put in the new Xboxes may or may not even do it in the first place?

They can and can't.

 

Most games simply don't do anything more interesting than a Prologic II mix, which is something that can be done in straight stereo. Windows doesn't and still doesn't come with any ability to process AC-3 surround, DTS surround or Atmos. Heck even using "Windows Sonic" requires paying money to activate, and then it doesn't work at all.  Even the GameCube , N64 and Super NES could do Prologic/II.

 

You know what's funny when you look at the Prologic II GC list? 191 games. Vs Windows, 35 or 210. 7 for the PS4, 15 for the PS3, 567 for the PS2.

What about DTS? Xbox 360: 4, PS4 96, PS3 241, PS2, 13.

Dolby Digital (5.1): Xbox 360: 1508, PS4 123, PS3 662, PS2 80, Wii 6, Windows 376

 

At any rate, Windows PC games, some do, most do not. This is largely because the ones that do, use a middleware (Wwise (Blizzard) or Miles Sound System), but that doesn't mean they actually make use of the positional audio. Games for consoles rarely make use of surround effects (eg the 3DS is supported by Miles, but the 3DS certainly doesn't have audio processing power for HRTF.)

 

At any rate, Audio in Western games is barely given much attention, and it's a chicken-and-egg problem, since there's no DSP hardware on PC's, and when there is (eg AMD Trueaudio on some recent AMD video cards) it goes unused since they aren't what the audio is going through.

[RejZoR]

4 hours ago, Kisai said:

They can and can't.

 

Most games simply don't do anything more interesting than a Prologic II mix, which is something that can be done in straight stereo. Windows doesn't and still doesn't come with any ability to process AC-3 surround, DTS surround or Atmos. Heck even using "Windows Sonic" requires paying money to activate, and then it doesn't work at all.  Even the GameCube , N64 and Super NES could do Prologic/II.

 

You know what's funny when you look at the Prologic II GC list? 191 games. Vs Windows, 35 or 210. 7 for the PS4, 15 for the PS3, 567 for the PS2.

What about DTS? Xbox 360: 4, PS4 96, PS3 241, PS2, 13.

Dolby Digital (5.1): Xbox 360: 1508, PS4 123, PS3 662, PS2 80, Wii 6, Windows 376

 

At any rate, Windows PC games, some do, most do not. This is largely because the ones that do, use a middleware (Wwise (Blizzard) or Miles Sound System), but that doesn't mean they actually make use of the positional audio. Games for consoles rarely make use of surround effects (eg the 3DS is supported by Miles, but the 3DS certainly doesn't have audio processing power for HRTF.)

 

At any rate, Audio in Western games is barely given much attention, and it's a chicken-and-egg problem, since there's no DSP hardware on PC's, and when there is (eg AMD Trueaudio on some recent AMD video cards) it goes unused since they aren't what the audio is going through.

You're mixing up surround encoders with actual 3D audio. Also Windows Sonic for Headphones is free.

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, RejZoR said:

You're mixing up surround encoders with actual 3D audio. Also Windows Sonic for Headphones is free.

Hmm, you're right, the prompt to pay is for the Dolby Atmos for Headphones. Selecting Sonic just tends to do nothing because nothing makes use of it.

[RonnieOP]

The vast majority of buyers will mot care about this feature. 

 

Should have made it an additional add on you could elect to buy instead of adding the cost for everyone.

 

 

[Bombastinator]

19 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Hmm, you're right, the prompt to pay is for the Dolby Atmos for Headphones. Selecting Sonic just tends to do nothing because nothing makes use of it.

So surround is not “actual 3d audio”

”actual 3d audio” seems so far to be a vague thing, at least to me.  The impression I am getting is “actual 3d audio” which also seems to be referred to as “gamer audio” is using complex math to generate simulated echos and stuff that when run through this “reference virtual human head model” thing create the impression that a sound is not merely just “right-left” which analog stereo can do, but also “forward-backward” and possibly with atmos “up-down” as well.  This ability to find directional sound is the killer app part for reacting to threats in combat games.  This appears to be a thing that requires hardware to make work because while it was made to work at one point it was broken by Microsoft(?) there is also the possible(?) issue of how well this “reference virtual human head model” fits all people and all hearing capacities.  
So there is actual surround, which would in this case be the insane multi speaker  setup @Kisai pictured in an earlier post, and emulating the effect of that same multi speaker setup using headphones.

Can atmos even do this emulation? Or is it just regular surround?  If it’s just “regular surround” it may be nearly useless as setting up that fantastically complex speaker system is beyond the capacity of most people.  The impression I was getting from the video is they were implying, perhaps falsely, that they could.

[JZStudios]

11 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Yes. I understand what an OS system breakage is.  I know what you are saying happened.  I’m not contesting that you said that.  Im not even disagreeing that I could have happened.  I’m saying that it seems to me that that explanation is assumptive.  It’s a “well this is what must have happened”. I am saying yes, it’s what could have happened.  It seems possible from  what I am seeing here that this other thing might have happened instead.  It seems to fit the anecdotal stuff here just as well.  Doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the case. I don’t know that it did.  

No, that's exactly what happened. MS changed the OS so the hardware stuff didn't work anymore. As such, the technology died. Shortly after MS changed the OS Creative and whoever owned EAX had some fallout and it went into total limbo. And since MS changed how the hardware works, and the software implementation isn't very good, it wasn't worth trying to pursue something new. This is also why motherboards now have built in audio jacks and almost no one uses sound cards.

11 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

to define what I mean by reliabilty issue.  There are people who said it worked long ago but does not work now.  that’s it. That’s all.

That's not a reliability issue.

11 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

One explanation for that IS  that the software used changed.  It’s not the ONLY thing that changed though.  The users also got older.  Hearing degrades with time. Bones change density.  Tendons ossify.  Age is a thing.

The only thing that would "break" directional hearing would be going deaf. Otherwise every person with 2 functional ears has an interaural time delay between the sound hitting each ear, along with an amount of dampening from their head.

As to the HRTF models themselves, yes you can generate your own, which is the most accurate way to do it, but there's also like 30 free presets that are available. Link available here on I Drink Lava's channel.

If you want something that doesn't have visual cues, check out these;

The old classic "Virtual Barber Shop"

Rocket Launch

Hellblade

Or you could just not look at it. Or close your eyes.

And yes, HRTF requires either headphones or very well positioned stereo.

11 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

A better test would be random noises from random directions with a methodology to poll the listener as to whether the direction they think the sound came from is accurate.

I distinctly remember in school having to do periodic hearing tests doing that. It was just regular left and right though.

 

11 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

It morphed into something unrelated, namely the nature of “gamer audio” and how well it actually simulates 3d sound using headphones.  Started as far as I can tell with a deviation regarding “audiophile audio” vs “gamer audio”

There's claims that Sony has made themselves that they will have 3D audio on the PS5. Now there's rumors that Xbox has some dedicated stuff and might be planning the same. It's not that far a leap in logic to talk about 3D audio.

[pas008]

16 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

No, that's exactly what happened. MS changed the OS so the hardware stuff didn't work anymore. As such, the technology died. Shortly after MS changed the OS Creative and whoever owned EAX had some fallout and it went into total limbo. And since MS changed how the hardware works, and the software implementation isn't very good, it wasn't worth trying to pursue something new. This is also why motherboards now have built in audio jacks and almost no one uses sound cards.

That's not a reliability issue.

The only thing that would "break" directional hearing would be going deaf. Otherwise every person with 2 functional ears has an interaural time delay between the sound hitting each ear, along with an amount of dampening from their head.

As to the HRTF models themselves, yes you can generate your own, which is the most accurate way to do it, but there's also like 30 free presets that are available. Link available here on I Drink Lava's channel.

If you want something that doesn't have visual cues, check out these;

The old classic "Virtual Barber Shop"

Rocket Launch

Hellblade

Or you could just not look at it. Or close your eyes.

And yes, HRTF requires either headphones or very well positioned stereo.

I distinctly remember in school having to do periodic hearing tests doing that. It was just regular left and right though.

 

There's claims that Sony has made themselves that they will have 3D audio on the PS5. Now there's rumors that Xbox has some dedicated stuff and might be planning the same. It's not that far a leap in logic to talk about 3D audio.

do you use hesuvi? or have?

just curious

[JZStudios]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

So surround is not “actual 3d audio”

”actual 3d audio” seems so far to be a vague thing, at least to me.  The impression I am getting is “actual 3d audio” which also seems to be referred to as “gamer audio” is using complex math to generate simulated echos and stuff that when run through this “reference virtual human head model” thing create the impression that a sound is not merely just “right-left” which analog stereo can do, but also “forward-backward” and possibly with atmos “up-down” as well.  This ability to find directional sound is the killer app part for reacting to threats in combat games.  This appears to be a thing that requires hardware to make work because while it was made to work at one point it was broken by Microsoft(?) there is also the possible(?) issue of how well this “reference virtual human head model” fits all people and all hearing capacities.  
So there is actual surround, which would in this case be the insane multi speaker  setup @Kisai pictured in an earlier post, and emulating the effect of that same multi speaker setup using headphones.

Can atmos even do this emulation? Or is it just regular surround?  If it’s just “regular surround” it may be nearly useless as setting up that fantastically complex speaker system is beyond the capacity of most people.  The impression I was getting from the video is they were implying, perhaps falsely, that they could.

As someone with a 5.1 setup and primarily uses a PC for games... not... really no. At least, not entirely on it's own. It's certainly better than stereo....

It's a little complicated. How surround sound in games works currently is you effectively have a ring of speakers around you. All surround sound really does is play back positional audio, so a sound source behind you plays on the rear speaker. This is pretty much fine for anything on the same plane as you are, and the positional can be pretty accurate, of course assuming the surround implementation is actually decent. The issues start to arise with sounds above and below you, they basically don't have any kind of sonic difference to something on the same plane. Obviously if you hear a helicopter it's most likely to be in the air, but it can still be difficult to actually pinpoint where it is. To make a slight "counter adjustment" for that, it's actually commonplace for 5.1 systems to have the rears be elevated, or ceiling mounted, which I have. It sort of helps to fake it a little. Also assuming your speakers are properly set up and not in a bizarre configuration.

 

This is where Dolby Atmos comes in. Dolby Atmos has ceiling speakers, so you actually get a height channel. I've never tried it, and none of the theaters within a 2 hour drive of me have Dolby Atmos, so I can't attest to how well they work. The other thing is, I have no idea if this is true or really how Atmos receivers work, but the theaters are supposed to have speakers all over the place and they get essentially a 3D box with actual sound sources moving around in that box, and the system then plays it back on corresponding speakers. I've been told that home Atmos doesn't do that, and that at least for movies all the channels are "baked" in like traditional surround. As such, I have honestly no idea if Dolby Atmos in game also works like that, or at all, since as far as I've seen or know about, the only Atmos support in games so far has been Atmos Headphones.

 

This is where (assumingly) Atmos Headphones comes in, along with binaural audio (method of recording stereo with 2 mono mics in a dummy's earholes) and HRTF (The virtual dummy head.) This is also where 3D audio and the old EAX fit. It takes a bunch of in game audio sources and measures the interaural (distance between each ear) time delay through the HRTF, and outputs binaural audio. The effect is that since the HRTF is a 3D model that knows how sound is perceived from nearly every angle and where the 2 "microphones" are, being in the ear, that you have true 3D positional audio. This is why headphones are a requirement.

In conjunction with this, they also tend to simulate room echoes and sound bounces. If I'm not wrong, the old EAX only had a few preset rooms that it would simulate, thus being inaccurate, whereas Aureal would actually simulate the sound bounces based off geometry in the game world for a more accurate effect.

 

So somewhere in here fits ambisonics. This is what Atmos theater does. The sounds have 3d positions, not speaker placements, and the system decodes where your speakers are and plays back the audio accordingly. This makes it superior to standard surround formats, because it works independently of speaker placements, though usually it requires more speakers, like Atmos's ceiling/height channels. This could also theoretically be used in conjunction with in game geometry for accurate sound bounces and occlusions, but given people might have poor setups it would be best to keep that as an option, whereas it's safe to do so with headphones.

 

Oh, there's also this thing going around called "VSS," or Virtual Surround Sound. Basically what that does is it simulates a 5.1 or 7.1 setup and then uses HRTF to "downmix" it into stereo. It's vastly inferior to literally everything else and I hate it and it needs to die. It's the reason why people with actual surround systems say Subnautica (which is only 2.0) needs surround, and then there's people saying it works perfectly in their headphones.

 

Oh, three games of note;

• Battlefield Hardline (and to an extent Battlefield 4) had a lot of verticality and no vertical audio cues. As a response DICE and Visceral added some simplistic audio ray tracing into the game. Basically sound sources shot a straight line at you and would determine if there was a clear line of sight, or an obstruction. Depending on the obstruction it would muffle the audio by varying amounts, i.e. a tarp would slightly muffle sounds where a brick wall would muffle it more. This helped a  bit with enemies being in rooms above and below you, but not so much in open areas.
• ARMA 3 actually has a fairly impressive audio implementation. Sounds travel at the speed of sound, so you can actually determine how far away an explosion is based on the visual of seeing the explosion, and the delay of hearing it. Pretty neat. It also does audio reflections, so shooting in the open sounds like a typical gunshot, where shooting in a building has a lot of reverb and it sounds like a trainwreck. which is accurate. Battlefield 3 also did this to an extent, with shooting in shipping containers sounding different than open fields, or a large room, or a small room. In both cases I don't know if the reflections and reverb are dynamic or static sound effects that play within those certain areas.
• Horizon Zero Dawn on PS4 had a bit of a marketing push with Sony about some Sony branded PS4 headphones that was supposed to do 3D audio. I have no idea if the headphones do anything special or not, but the game is my favorite piece of sound design with 5.1 support within any form of media. This was a big push and prompt into getting Sony to advertise 3D audio for the PS5.

[JZStudios]

22 minutes ago, pas008 said:

do you use hesuvi? or have?

just curious

I've listened to some YT videos, but I hate it. There's no reason I would use it over my actual 5.1 system and not have a terrible audio quality downgrade.

[pas008]

50 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

I've listened to some YT videos, but I hate it. There's no reason I would use it over my actual 5.1 system and not have a terrible audio quality downgrade.

its for headphones

and its has many variety of vss

which is taking 5.1/7.1 and making it to a hrtf like sound

how is that downgraded quality?

[Bombastinator]

2 hours ago, JZStudios said:

No, that's exactly what happened. MS changed the OS so the hardware stuff didn't work anymore. As such, the technology died. Shortly after MS changed the OS Creative and whoever owned EAX had some fallout and it went into total limbo. And since MS changed how the hardware works, and the software implementation isn't very good, it wasn't worth trying to pursue something new. This is also why motherboards now have built in audio jacks and almost no one uses sound cards.

That's not a reliability issue.

The only thing that would "break" directional hearing would be going deaf. Otherwise every person with 2 functional ears has an interaural time delay between the sound hitting each ear, along with an amount of dampening from their head.

As to the HRTF models themselves, yes you can generate your own, which is the most accurate way to do it, but there's also like 30 free presets that are available. Link available here on I Drink Lava's channel.

If you want something that doesn't have visual cues, check out these;

The old classic "Virtual Barber Shop"

Rocket Launch

Hellblade

Or you could just not look at it. Or close your eyes.

And yes, HRTF requires either headphones or very well positioned stereo.

I distinctly remember in school having to do periodic hearing tests doing that. It was just regular left and right though.

 

There's claims that Sony has made themselves that they will have 3D audio on the PS5. Now there's rumors that Xbox has some dedicated stuff and might be planning the same. It's not that far a leap in logic to talk about 3D audio.

re: what happened.  

Sure.  Ok.  You think that.  I already said you did I think but no matter.

 

re: reliability issue.

Sure. Ok.  Definitions of words.  You know what I meant now.  You don’t feel I used the right term.  That’s fine.  Is there a term you feel would be better?

Re: stereo hearing.  
yes.  Stereo hearing is unaffected.  But we’re not talking about mere stereo hearing.  2d, which is what you are talking about is bog standard audiophile analog stuff that’s been around since the 1960’s.  2d does not require HRTF.  3d is not 2d it’s a ton more subtle than that.  It’s echoes and quiet noises and subtle tonal differences.  Hair cell stuff.  People lose hair cells as they age.  You say there are 30 different standard models.  New information.  Supports my point.

Part of the problem is the whole system of terminology really sucks.

atmos appears to at least want to do even more than traditional “3d” in that it adds elevation. “3.1d” perhaps “3d gamer” sound was always what would more properly termed 2d and stereo was 1d, and mono was point.  I hate marketing BS.
 

We seem to be using graphing terminology to some degree so let’s push it in that direction. 1d would be mono.  Point.  2d would be stereo, x axis. 3d would be x/y axis. Atmos, 3.1d would be x/y/z axis.  So “3d sound” sort of arguably everything has one more “d” in it than it really should.  This would make atmos “4d” except “4d” means “3d plus time” so it’s taken.  Hence 3.1d

 

Re: Leap of logic.

i don’t think I contested that one.

[Thaldor]

Everybody so into HRTF and other audio output and here I am like "you know, there's more that you can improve with dedicated soundcard/-chip that normal integrated chips don't do or at least are bad at it". Like in-game noise isolation from mic input isn't hard to do with software but it's much better if you have HW do it, generally better control over inputs and outputs, possibility to move the sound processing from the CPU (doesn't do much for the performance but can allow some more optimization) and possible ability to support some technologies that are vendor specific (like some out-of-the-box support for some wireless headphones). All of these can be done with software but it starts to become taxing at some point, like the I/O controlling in streaming, you can easily handle the mic and game input and their timing and re-encoding for the stream with software but add things like isolating the mic input, volume control, some kind of better overall quality in encoding and it might affect the performance somewhat and having a separate system handling it might become more useful.

 

These and probably tons of more things can be done with dedicated soundcards but we are talking about a console here and rumors. I don't expect something like Creative class soundcard to be in Xbox before I see it and I could bet on this being marketing trick and in reality there is, at most, the low-end Realtek chip that they just call "soundcard" to get something to boost their marketing.

[JZStudios]

2 hours ago, pas008 said:

its for headphones

and its has many variety of vss

which is taking 5.1/7.1 and making it to a hrtf like sound

how is that downgraded quality?

Because it takes clear audio quality that standard stereo or surround has and puts it through really cheap post processing that adds a bunch of muffles and possibly also reverb. Everyone claims it doesn't hurt audio quality, but then also says that listening to stereo sources like music sounds terrible. It can't be both, it just always sounds terrible.

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

re: what happened.  

Sure.  Ok.  You think that.  I already said you did I think but no matter.

I don't think that. That's a fact, that's what happened.

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

re: reliability issue.

Sure. Ok.  Definitions of words.  You know what I meant now.  You don’t feel I used the right term.  That’s fine.  Is there a term you feel would be better?

Broken. Unsupported. Unused. A reliability issue would indicate that it only works sometimes, like a cheap car. That's not the case, it's just been unsupported and if you get the old hardware it works perfectly.

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

Re: stereo hearing.  
yes.  Stereo hearing is unaffected.  But we’re not talking about mere stereo hearing.  2d, which is what you are talking about is bog standard audiophile analog stuff that’s been around since the 1960’s.  2d does not require HRTF.  3d is not 2d it’s a ton more subtle than that.  It’s echoes and quiet noises and subtle tonal differences.  Hair cell stuff.  People lose hair cells as they age.  You say there are 30 different standard models.  New information.  Supports my point.

What? Stereo has been around since the late 1800's. "Audiophile" really has nothing to do with how many speakers there are or whether or not there's any audio panning. It's simply a term for a group of people who intend to achieve as closely as possible to reproduce the original recording through playback. You're throwing stuff into this salad of your own making, and you're also the only one talking about it, other than the guy saying the "audiophile" sound cards don't have EAX or similar support. They just focus on having good clear audio. They aren't mutually exclusive.

I have no idea why you're talking about hair cells. As to different standardized models, I think there's really only one that takes average values. The others are basically just random people that had theirs done and put them out for free. It's not like it's a big issue either way. If you want to try a different one you just plug in a different model.

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

Part of the problem is the whole system of terminology really sucks.

atmos appears to at least want to do even more than traditional “3d” in that it adds elevation. “3.1d” perhaps “3d gamer” sound was always what would more properly termed 2d and stereo was 1d, and mono was point.  I hate marketing BS.

Atmos is just a modern interpretation of ambisonics, with the intent of making it more standardized and bringing it into peoples homes. It's not really a new technology, just a new and easier to acquire/setup standard. Ambisonics has been around since the 70's but Atmos is the first big push to make it into the consumer market.

And then you get confused.

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

We seem to be using graphing terminology to some degree so let’s push it in that direction. 1d would be mono.  Point.  2d would be stereo, x axis. 3d would be x/y axis. Atmos, 3.1d would be x/y/z axis.  So “3d sound” sort of arguably everything has one more “d” in it than it really should.  This would make atmos “4d” except “4d” means “3d plus time” so it’s taken.  Hence 3.1d

So to start with, the First Dimension is a line, not a point. A point is a Zero Dimension. A piece of paper, or anything drawn on that paper is Second Dimension. Think about games, the old Mario games were 2d. Depending on how you looked at it you had either A. Left/Right, Up/Down or B. North, South, East, West. Really, pretty much the same, one was a sidescroller like Mario, the other was a top-down like Asteroids. The Third Dimension adds height or depth to it.

So technically speaking if you wanted to go off of geometry (which shouldn't really apply here since sound is always 3D) then Stereo is 1D, Surround is 2D and Ambisonics is 3D. The benefit of Ambisonics is it can be mixed to any number of speakers and still be Ambisonic. This is why labelling them as geometry doesn't work. It doesn't make sense.

 

The reality is that game worlds are most often in 3D, yet most game audio is "recorded" in an almost mono like fashion. Here's my quick and shitty diagram;

Basically the green oval is "your" in game head, the grey zone in the middle is the actual microphone, and the cardioid (Hemispherical shape) dictates whether it's played on the left speaker (black), right speaker (red), or both, just like a Venn Diagram. This shape is technically 3D, and it's how actual microphones record audio, but don't worry about that. The point is, this technically gives stereo output with a decently smooth stereo field pan as objects move from left to right and has a smooth fade between both speakers. I'll admit, I'm not 100% on how game audio works, but if there is a distinct left and right "microphone," they have almost the exact same point in space.

This does actually work fairly well for surround setups, just think of having more microphones pointed in other directions. It just plays back audio in roughly the correct direction and your actual physical head does everything else naturally. You just don't have very good height information. I suppose if Atmos got properly supported and they did the same thing with "microphones" pointing upwards it would also work fairly well.

 

So now let's look at how "3D" audio on a stereo system looks, specifically for headphones.

Now there's a separation between the 2 "microphones" and thus a small interaural delay. This drastically improves spatial awareness given the speed of sound is being taken into effect in the audio. It has all the same components as regular stereo, just slightly spaced apart. All HRTF does in addition is add some muffling based on the sound sources direction.

[JZStudios]

24 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

Everybody so into HRTF and other audio output and here I am like "you know, there's more that you can improve with dedicated soundcard/-chip that normal integrated chips don't do or at least are bad at it". Like in-game noise isolation from mic input isn't hard to do with software but it's much better if you have HW do it, generally better control over inputs and outputs, possibility to move the sound processing from the CPU (doesn't do much for the performance but can allow some more optimization) and possible ability to support some technologies that are vendor specific (like some out-of-the-box support for some wireless headphones). All of these can be done with software but it starts to become taxing at some point, like the I/O controlling in streaming, you can easily handle the mic and game input and their timing and re-encoding for the stream with software but add things like isolating the mic input, volume control, some kind of better overall quality in encoding and it might affect the performance somewhat and having a separate system handling it might become more useful.

 

These and probably tons of more things can be done with dedicated soundcards but we are talking about a console here and rumors. I don't expect something like Creative class soundcard to be in Xbox before I see it and I could bet on this being marketing trick and in reality there is, at most, the low-end Realtek chip that they just call "soundcard" to get something to boost their marketing.

Yeah, but none of that is very interesting.

[Bombastinator]

re: Microsoft

yes eyes.  You steadfastly believe that. I have no evidence you are wrong.  I have no doubt that your descriptions of the actions of Microsoft are accurate.  I’m not sure it means anything.  You’ve banged that desk what? Three times already?  I had an idea about a possibility and you don’t like that.  This is clear.
 

Re: stereo

1880’s.  Edison Wax cylinder stuff. Before they were even disks.

If they played with it commercially it died for many many years.  No don’t go off and angrily find some double cylinder player pic from some museum because the “if” offends you. “If” in this case means I’m not bothering to go looking.  Doesn’t have anything to do with the topic.  I smell a knock-down-drag-out about quadrophonic next.

 

re: dimensional BS.

 Do you know what I meant?  It’s clear that you do.  Do I know what you meant? Also obviously yes.  You are going after my attempt to explain terminology not with “you are incorrect” but your use of terminology does not fit my standards”. Or rather you are doing so and using the standards thing as an an attempt to attack the concept.  That’s fine.  I’m ok with that.  I don’t care, but you go have fun.

 

 

[pas008]

2 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Because it takes clear audio quality that standard stereo or surround has and puts it through really cheap post processing that adds a bunch of muffles and possibly also reverb. Everyone claims it doesn't hurt audio quality, but then also says that listening to stereo sources like music sounds terrible. It can't be both, it just always sounds terrible.

I don't think that. That's a fact, that's what happened.

Broken. Unsupported. Unused. A reliability issue would indicate that it only works sometimes, like a cheap car. That's not the case, it's just been unsupported and if you get the old hardware it works perfectly.

What? Stereo has been around since the late 1800's. "Audiophile" really has nothing to do with how many speakers there are or whether or not there's any audio panning. It's simply a term for a group of people who intend to achieve as closely as possible to reproduce the original recording through playback. You're throwing stuff into this salad of your own making, and you're also the only one talking about it, other than the guy saying the "audiophile" sound cards don't have EAX or similar support. They just focus on having good clear audio. They aren't mutually exclusive.

I have no idea why you're talking about hair cells. As to different standardized models, I think there's really only one that takes average values. The others are basically just random people that had theirs done and put them out for free. It's not like it's a big issue either way. If you want to try a different one you just plug in a different model.

Atmos is just a modern interpretation of ambisonics, with the intent of making it more standardized and bringing it into peoples homes. It's not really a new technology, just a new and easier to acquire/setup standard. Ambisonics has been around since the 70's but Atmos is the first big push to make it into the consumer market.

And then you get confused.

So to start with, the First Dimension is a line, not a point. A point is a Zero Dimension. A piece of paper, or anything drawn on that paper is Second Dimension. Think about games, the old Mario games were 2d. Depending on how you looked at it you had either A. Left/Right, Up/Down or B. North, South, East, West. Really, pretty much the same, one was a sidescroller like Mario, the other was a top-down like Asteroids. The Third Dimension adds height or depth to it.

So technically speaking if you wanted to go off of geometry (which shouldn't really apply here since sound is always 3D) then Stereo is 1D, Surround is 2D and Ambisonics is 3D. The benefit of Ambisonics is it can be mixed to any number of speakers and still be Ambisonic. This is why labelling them as geometry doesn't work. It doesn't make sense.

 

The reality is that game worlds are most often in 3D, yet most game audio is "recorded" in an almost mono like fashion. Here's my quick and shitty diagram;

Basically the green oval is "your" in game head, the grey zone in the middle is the actual microphone, and the cardioid (Hemispherical shape) dictates whether it's played on the left speaker (black), right speaker (red), or both, just like a Venn Diagram. This shape is technically 3D, and it's how actual microphones record audio, but don't worry about that. The point is, this technically gives stereo output with a decently smooth stereo field pan as objects move from left to right and has a smooth fade between both speakers. I'll admit, I'm not 100% on how game audio works, but if there is a distinct left and right "microphone," they have almost the exact same point in space.

This does actually work fairly well for surround setups, just think of having more microphones pointed in other directions. It just plays back audio in roughly the correct direction and your actual physical head does everything else naturally. You just don't have very good height information. I suppose if Atmos got properly supported and they did the same thing with "microphones" pointing upwards it would also work fairly well.

 

So now let's look at how "3D" audio on a stereo system looks, specifically for headphones.

Now there's a separation between the 2 "microphones" and thus a small interaural delay. This drastically improves spatial awareness given the speed of sound is being taken into effect in the audio. It has all the same components as regular stereo, just slightly spaced apart. All HRTF does in addition is add some muffling based on the sound sources direction.

Lol cheap post processing

It's algorithms

algorithms are used for sound everywhere in this digital world

 

Muffles and reverbs. Lol

This shows you have no experience with vss

Or setting it up correctly for certain vss

 

Guess all these companies are wasting resources on this and better their algorithms

To take surround channels and downmix for headphones

Dts

Dolby

Sbx which was thx

Yamaha even has silent cinema for headphones

Etc

Etc

 

I find this hilarious considering anything digital uses algorithms lol

 

[dogwitch]

just my 2 cent.

also bw/ file size of good audio takes up a lot of data.

but you look at how audio files have been on the pc for most of its life. compress to hell and back.

[JZStudios]

57 minutes ago, pas008 said:

Lol cheap post processing

It's algorithms

algorithms are used for sound everywhere in this digital world

Does it happen after the original recording plays, and before the actual is produced through speakers?

Yes?

That's called post processing. It's a process that occurs post raw data. That's the exact definition. Doesn't matter if you're talking audio, film, photography, or game rendering. But sure, I'm a dum dum. Yu so smaht.

Of course it's algorithms. Were you trying to sound smart? Do you have any idea what post processing is? Anti-aliasing (which also occurs in audio BTW) is a post processing effect, just like bloom, lens flares, depth of field, etc. It happens between the raw rendering stage and the final product.

57 minutes ago, pas008 said:

Muffles and reverbs. Lol

This shows you have no experience with vss

Or setting it up correctly for certain vss

That's quite literally what it does. the audio played behind you is slightly muffled to simulate your head.

But VSS is terrible and so is anyone that likes it. It has zero height information, it's just taking one limited source, adding a bunch of cheap post processing to try and cram it into stereo. And I absolutely dare you to tell me that listening to straight stereo playback via music, or YouTube, or anything else with simple stereo sounds clear as a bell.

57 minutes ago, pas008 said:

Guess all these companies are wasting resources on this and better their algorithms

To take surround channels and downmix for headphones

Dts

Dolby

Sbx which was thx

Yamaha even has silent cinema for headphones

• DTS doesn't downmix for headphones, just stereo. i.e. it plays back surround channels on whatever speakers are available. Meaning to go from 5.1 to 2.0 it'll simply play left, surround left, and center on the left channel, and right, surround right, and center on the right channel. To upmix stereo it just plays left channel on left and surround left, same for right, and anything that plays on both plays through the center. Hell, they might both play through center all the time.
• Dolby doesn't downmix for headphones. Same as above. You just said Dolby, so I assume you're talking about actual Dolby, maybe Pro-logic or digital. The actual original Dolby came out with record players and tape machines.
• SBX is VSS, oh and get this directly from their website; "This is where SBX Surround comes in. SBX Surround processes game audio through highly optimized algorithms to recreate virtualized surround sound even through a 2.0 speaker setup, or even headphones." and "Virtualizer then takes the audio that has been processed through Upmix and spartializes (Their typo on their actual website) it over headphones, stereo and multichannel speakers using optimized head-related transfer function (HRTF) filters."They also have the audacity to show an actual binaural recording setup and claim that's how it works. Probably why the comments are turned off because it was pure horseshit. There's also this Reddit post that says up front it doesn't sound good; "For games? It works and pretty well implemented with SBX. For music? Don't even try. It ducks it up. However, for games I've enjoyed using it. Sounds little weird, but you get used to it within an hour." 

• Yamaha Silent Cinema also seems to be VSS, and very unpopular. Very few people seem to have used it, and the ones that do say it sounds pretty poor, especially for music.

At the end of the day, Dolby Headphone, SBX, Yamaha Silent Cinema, Hesuvi, Razer Surround, etc. are all doing almost exactly the same thing.

To chime in my Yamaha AVR has some fun modes I can use with stereo sound, like a Vienna concert hall that adds reverb... oh wait, you hate that term. Nevermind.

 

[pas008]

9 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

Does it happen after the original recording plays, and before the actual is produced through speakers?

Yes?

That's called post processing. It's a process that occurs post raw data. That's the exact definition. Doesn't matter if you're talking audio, film, photography, or game rendering. But sure, I'm a dum dum. Yu so smaht.

Of course it's algorithms. Were you trying to sound smart? Do you have any idea what post processing is? Anti-aliasing (which also occurs in audio BTW) is a post processing effect, just like bloom, lens flares, depth of field, etc. It happens between the raw rendering stage and the final product.

That's quite literally what it does. the audio played behind you is slightly muffled to simulate your head.

But VSS is terrible and so is anyone that likes it. It has zero height information, it's just taking one limited source, adding a bunch of cheap post processing to try and cram it into stereo. And I absolutely dare you to tell me that listening to straight stereo playback via music, or YouTube, or anything else with simple stereo sounds clear as a bell.

• DTS doesn't downmix for headphones, just stereo. i.e. it plays back surround channels on whatever speakers are available. Meaning to go from 5.1 to 2.0 it'll simply play left, surround left, and center on the left channel, and right, surround right, and center on the right channel. To upmix stereo it just plays left channel on left and surround left, same for right, and anything that plays on both plays through the center. Hell, they might both play through center all the time.
• Dolby doesn't downmix for headphones. Same as above. You just said Dolby, so I assume you're talking about actual Dolby, maybe Pro-logic or digital. The actual original Dolby came out with record players and tape machines.
• SBX is VSS, oh and get this directly from their website; "This is where SBX Surround comes in. SBX Surround processes game audio through highly optimized algorithms to recreate virtualized surround sound even through a 2.0 speaker setup, or even headphones." and "Virtualizer then takes the audio that has been processed through Upmix and spartializes (Their typo on their actual website) it over headphones, stereo and multichannel speakers using optimized head-related transfer function (HRTF) filters."They also have the audacity to show an actual binaural recording setup and claim that's how it works. Probably why the comments are turned off because it was pure horseshit. There's also this Reddit post that says up front it doesn't sound good; "For games? It works and pretty well implemented with SBX. For music? Don't even try. It ducks it up. However, for games I've enjoyed using it. Sounds little weird, but you get used to it within an hour." 

• Yamaha Silent Cinema also seems to be VSS, and very unpopular. Very few people seem to have used it, and the ones that do say it sounds pretty poor, especially for music.

At the end of the day, Dolby Headphone, SBX, Yamaha Silent Cinema, Hesuvi, Razer Surround, etc. are all doing almost exactly the same thing.

To chime in my Yamaha AVR has some fun modes I can use with stereo sound, like a Vienna concert hall that adds reverb... oh wait, you hate that term. Nevermind.

 

For games this is about a gaming system right?

 

Dolby atmos can be used on headphones too 

 

These exist for a reason

Gaming sound is shit at times in many games

 

Fyi If you used any especially like i just said above about shit sound games

you would know its not muffled

Turn you game settings to 5.1 or 7.1 and use one

Proper configuration is key

@an actual squirrel

Could explain it better

[Kisai]

12 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

So surround is not “actual 3d audio”

”actual 3d audio” seems so far to be a vague thing, at least to me.  The impression I am getting is “actual 3d audio” which also seems to be referred to as “gamer audio” is using complex math to generate simulated echos and stuff that when run through this “reference virtual human head model” thing create the impression that a sound is not merely just “right-left” which analog stereo can do, but also “forward-backward” and possibly with atmos “up-down” as well.  This ability to find directional sound is the killer app part for reacting to threats in combat games.  This appears to be a thing that requires hardware to make work because while it was made to work at one point it was broken by Microsoft(?) there is also the possible(?) issue of how well this “reference virtual human head model” fits all people and all hearing capacities.  
So there is actual surround, which would in this case be the insane multi speaker  setup @Kisai pictured in an earlier post, and emulating the effect of that same multi speaker setup using headphones.

Can atmos even do this emulation? Or is it just regular surround?  If it’s just “regular surround” it may be nearly useless as setting up that fantastically complex speaker system is beyond the capacity of most people.  The impression I was getting from the video is they were implying, perhaps falsely, that they could.

Yeah, 3D positional audio, Surround sound are basically splitting hairs the same way one splits hairs about 3D on a 2D screen vs 3D in VR. One is trying to give you a 3D effect, the other is actually making use of the shape of your head to do an actual 3D effect.

 

Like I said earlier, true 3d positional audio, HRTF in headphones might make VR not suck as it solves one of the problems that makes people sick (where things in the "3D" space don't sound where they belong and brain thinks you're hallucinating, and you feel sick.) It's piece of the puzzle.

 

Atmos takes the 8-channel audio (7.1) and adds 3d positional panning to the channels. As far as I know, in a film context, they are always "baked" tracks, because they are played back in a theater, so the experience is against the entire theater, not you individually.

 

With video games, unless PS5's and XBOX series X come with HRTF headphones in the box, it's extremely unlikely any gamers have an Atmos home theater to play games on. It becomes an edge case like people who are willing to plonk down money for good VR kit, not crappy sub-90hz HMD's. Which to me suggests that "the sound card" should really be part of the HMD if it's intended for VR.

 

Yet, the console itself would still need the processing hardware in case people do use it in their home theater and also use their console to watch films.

[an actual squirrel]

I don't want to derail this xbox news with a long post about how I think headphone surround sound dsp is generally misunderstood and underutilized right now, but it is exciting to potentially see object based audio and headphone surround sound dsp becoming more common with the new consoles.