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Rand on "collateral marketing" by LTT

papajo

So it kinda grinds my gears when tech journalists unknowingly (some conspiracy theorists may say that they gain profit in one way or an other by doing that and that might have some truth in it in particular instances for particular channels etc but I am going for the sake of argument to believe that they do that unknowingly or even if they are believe what they say that this is their honest unbiased opinion) promote/convey messages during their monologues that pland the seed to the customer that what was mentioned actually is true and by doing that they give a grap to big companies to continue the price gauging  that is what I call "collateral marketing" 

 

So the topic could be something totally irrelevant but what they say during that topic in the form of bits and pieces from lets say a 10 minute video or what not actually if reproduced many times (as in in many videos or by multiple journalists) actually have an impact on how buyers thing and justify stuff. 

 

Just as a reference (you can see similar thing in other YT channels or tech-websites or even other videos from LTT) I am going to put this wan show clip 

 

 

 

Where linus says that sony struggles to keep the PS5 cost lower than 450$ and by saying that he also mentions (collateral marketing here->)  that PS4 cant ever be cheaper than a said price (I think he said 180$ or something like that) giving as an argument that a hard disk can not cost less than 40$ because it has parts ....

 

Well yea a hard disk has parts but you forget that electronics are made in mass out of cheap materials at an astonishing efficiency the only reason some electronics have a hefty price tag is NOT because they cost much to manufacture but because the manufacturer decides that he can have a hefty price-tag on said electronics because of marketing and a gullible target group e.g "GAMER" stuff... 

 

As a proof here is for example a brand new Toshiba Hard disk that costs 11 euro shipped or 11.8 USD https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B004UGUVU4?linkCode=xm2&condition=new&camp=2025&creative=12738&smid=AY6XVH1VF38KA&creativeASIN=B004UGUVU4&tag=geizhals-am-21

 

It has everything a 1TB HDD has motors plater hausing EVERYTHING... the reason 1TB disks do not cost 11.8USD ?? well because 1TB HDDs are more desirable therefore easier marketable at a higher price! because -using linus's same argument- the only difference in a 1TB from toshiba and this 11.8USD 320GB is the plater which differs ONLY as an artificial option, with that I mean while producing a platter they decide if it is going to be "sculpted" as a 1TB one or a whatever GB one... 0 added cost. 

 

Same goes for the PS4 yes it has screws and chips and a power supply etc but the same amount more or less of chips screws psu laser disc reader and so on and so fort is found in lets say a bluray player 

 

this is a sony bluray player that ships at 60 euro (or about 65 USD) with profit from a 3rd party retailer (so atleast two parties have added a profit margin there SONY and that retailer ) + taxes are included in that price 

 

https://hengster.mypreferred.shop/sony-bdp-s1700-schwarz/?___store=web_hengster_store&utm_source=geizhals&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=geizhalsshop

 

And it has almost everything a PS4 has in terms of manufacturing process and cost. 

 

The only difference is that the components of a PS4 are overpriced because they are more marketable and the target group more gullible (e.g the graphics chip which really costs amd a few dozen bucks to manufacture but obviously they dont sell it near that price) 

 

So please do not justify high prices because the cost of manufacturing the products is high NO IT IS NOT!!!

 

They are high because of hype word of mouth (which you aid by this "collateral marketing") and so on and so forth... any GPU for example doesnt cost more than about 30$ to manufacture yet they can have a retail price of even 1000$.

 

That's because people buy them at that price not because its very expensive to produce them! 

 

Here look they are made as if they are chocolate bars in a sweatshop in china almost totally hand assembled every cheap componentry  in that card 

 

 

Go check the prices yourself how much capacitors cost or a PCB etc (and mind that the prices you are able to find with a simple googling are retail prices for small quantities those manufacturers like zontac asus etc get much better prices than will get but it doesnt matter because it is very cheap even for you ) the only thing you wont find a price is the actual GPU but this again is just a piece of silicon which costs just a few bucks to manufacture (if you gonna fabricate lots of them as they do) 

 

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7 minutes ago, papajo said:

As a proof here is for example a brand new Toshiba Hard disk that costs 11 euro shipped or 11.8 USD https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B004UGUVU4?linkCode=xm2&condition=new&camp=2025&creative=12738&smid=AY6XVH1VF38KA&creativeASIN=B004UGUVU4&tag=geizhals-am-21

 

It has everything a 1TB HDD has motors plater hausing EVERYTHING... the reason 1TB disks do not cost 11.8USD ?? well because 1TB HDDs are more desirable

You have it backwards, the reason the 320GB is $12 is that nobody wants one nowadays and that's the only way to get rid of them, it's obviously worth a lot more in materials/parts.

Your reference should be an average current commodity part that people want, these are the ones that are priced "right", not the cheapest you can find which is usually priced that way as an offer, for clearance etc nor the top end stuff where it's easy to make extra margin. So the 1TB drive price is closer to where it's at.

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12 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

You have it backwards, the reason the 320GB is $12 is that nobody wants one nowadays and that's the only way to get rid of them, it's obviously worth a lot more in materials/parts.

Your reference should be an average current commodity part that people want, these are the ones that are priced "right", not the cheapest you can find which is usually priced that way as an offer, for clearance etc nor the top end stuff where it's easy to make extra margin. So the 1TB drive price is closer to where it's at.

No its not man especially hard drives cost nothing to make they are made of a casted cheap metal housing ( a few cents to a dollar) a spindle again a few cents to a dollar magnets again a few cents to a dollar the platter again a few cents to a dollar and a couple of microchips again a few cents to a dollar and a dozen of other componentry such as capacitors resistors etc again a few cents to a dollar and that's it. 

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18 minutes ago, papajo said:

Only eBay and Amazon seems to be selling those drives at such low prices. All the actual, proper stores seem to be asking for ~$50 or more. If your argument is solely based on Amazon - and eBay - listings, it's on pretty shaky legs.

Hand, n. A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody’s pocket.

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3 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

Only eBay and Amazon seems to be selling those drives at such low prices. All the actual, proper stores seem to be asking for ~$50 or more. If your argument is solely based on Amazon - and eBay - listings, it's on pretty shaky legs.

So what? smaller stores dont bother because the margins are not high enough and they figure they cant sell as many because their clientbase is smaller the point is that production + distribution + taxes + a profit (no matter how small) can end up to this price 

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Just now, papajo said:

So what?

The thing is, you're not showing any facts about your claims. Show us proper listings for all the parts in e.g. an HDD. For a proper showing, also include the cost of tools and their maintenance, workforce wages, building rent and the maintenance costs, any possible taxes, insurance etc.

Hand, n. A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody’s pocket.

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Just now, WereCatf said:

The thing is, you're not showing any facts about your claims. Show us proper listings for all the parts in e.g. an HDD. For a proper showing, also include the cost of tools and their maintenance, workforce wages, building rent and the maintenance costs, any possible taxes, insurance etc.

They are sold in huge quantities and various models (not only that HDD) that is a fact.  you can find them on ebay (from various sellers) on alibaba  and on various amazon stores. Its not my problem if you cant get it. 

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Just now, papajo said:

Its not my problem if you cant get it. 

You're the one making claims, the onus to show facts is on you.

Hand, n. A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody’s pocket.

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Just now, WereCatf said:

You're the one making claims, the onus to show facts is on you.

and I did you are not capable to understand they are facts its your problem elaborate on why it is not a fact ?

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22 minutes ago, papajo said:

As a proof here is for example a brand new Toshiba Hard disk that costs 11 euro shipped or 11.8 USD https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B004UGUVU4?linkCode=xm2&condition=new&camp=2025&creative=12738&smid=AY6XVH1VF38KA&creativeASIN=B004UGUVU4&tag=geizhals-am-21

 

It has everything a 1TB HDD has motors plater hausing EVERYTHING... the reason 1TB disks do not cost 11.8USD ?? well because 1TB HDDs are more desirable therefore easier marketable at a higher price! because -using linus's same argument- the only difference in a 1TB from toshiba and this 11.8USD 320GB is the plater which differs ONLY as an artificial option, with that I mean while producing a platter they decide if it is going to be "sculpted" as a 1TB one or a whatever GB one... 0 added cost. 

That model of drive hasn't been in production for a long time.

 

Assuming that they are actually "new" drives it's possible that the wholesaler/manufacturer is selling them at a loss to clear old stock. $10 is probably more than the scrap value of the metals in them which is why it's more profitable to sell them at a loss than it is to scrap them. No point holding them in a warehouse where it just takes up room and looks bad on the books.

 

22 minutes ago, papajo said:

They are high because of hype word of mouth (which you aid by this "collateral marketing") and so on and so forth... any GPU for example doesnt cost more than about 30$ to manufacture yet they can have a retail price of even 1000$.

[...]
the only thing you wont find a price is the actual GPU but this again is just a piece of silicon which costs just a few bucks to manufacture (if you gonna fabricate lots of them as they do) 

The cost for a GPU is not the cost of the silicon it is made out of. ?‍♂️ That's like saying "well a Ferrari is only about $800 worth of raw Aluminium so that's how much it should cost".

 

It's the billions spent on research and development that needs to be recouped and buying the production time/capacity from the processor manufacturers (Global Foundries, TSMC).


If you are so certain you can make a competitive GPU die for a few dollars then go ahead and do it. Undercut the competition and sell them for $100 each and you'll make an absolute fortune and put Nvidia, AMD, and Intel out of business.

 

7 minutes ago, papajo said:

No its not man especially hard drives cost nothing to make they are made of a casted cheap metal housing ( a few cents to a dollar) a spindle again a few cents to a dollar magnets again a few cents to a dollar the platter again a few cents to a dollar and a couple of microchips again a few cents to a dollar and a dozen of other componentry such as capacitors resistors etc again a few cents to a dollar and that's it. 

Again, if you actually believe you could produce HDDs for a few dollars then please do so. I'll be your first customer buying a dozen 8TB drives for $20 each.

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1 minute ago, papajo said:

and just for the sake of argument here a 1TB disk at 34 euros (~ 37$) https://www.kaizershop.gr/hdd-wd-caviar-blue-1tb-sata-3-wd10ezex from a small retail shop in Greece 

You were whining about Linus talking about HDDs costing about $40 and then you link to an HDD that costs about $40? Whoop.

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The example disk is tiny in capacity and ancient with SATA 3Gbps interface... I can't even remember how long ago you have to go before 6Gbps was standard on drives, but the standard itself was from 2009. We're talking about potentially a decade old stock.

 

On material cost, if you want to pay that little, then only expect to get the raw material. Just for manufacturing process alone, there is what's called transformation cost, the cost of turning those materials into a product. It is not zero, and also doesn't consider other costs involved up and down the whole chain.

 

4 minutes ago, papajo said:

and just for the sake of argument here a 1TB disk at 34 euros (~ 37$) https://www.kaizershop.gr/hdd-wd-caviar-blue-1tb-sata-3-wd10ezex from a small retail shop in Greece 

Close enough to $40 for Linus' point.

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27 minutes ago, Spotty said:

That model of drive hasn't been in production for a long time.

 

Assuming that they are actually "new" drives it's possible that the wholesaler/manufacturer is selling them at a loss to clear old stock. $10 is probably more than the scrap value of the metals in them which is why it's more profitable to sell them at a loss than it is to scrap them. No point holding them in a warehouse where it just takes up room and looks bad on the books.

There are tons of cheap drives different models capacities manufacturers  take a look here https://geizhals.eu/?cat=hde7s

 

here is an other example 1TB 7200rpm currently in production and sold by a german retailer other than amazon for 34 euro (37 USD) 

 

https://www.mindfactory.de/product_info.php/1000GB-Toshiba-DT01ACA-Serie-DT01ACA100-32MB-3-5Zoll--8-9cm--SATA-6Gb-s_808828.html

 

Just think of it what does a HDD have that costs much? The magnets? the spindle (which is a simple coil motor or a spool of coper strings with magnets) the PCB ? the couple of microchips? the platter which is silicon or in other words dust... 

 

27 minutes ago, Spotty said:

The cost for a GPU is not the cost of the silicon it is made out of. ?‍♂️ That's like saying "well a Ferrari is only about $800 worth of raw Aluminium so that's how much it should cost".

We are talking about manufacturing cost so yes thats exactly like saying a Ferrari is only worth about 10.000 to make (not 800 that's to low) and yes most of the remaining 300.000 + is the marketing plain ol good profits :)

 

27 minutes ago, Spotty said:

It's the billions spent on research and development that needs to be recouped and buying the production time/capacity from the processor manufacturers (Global Foundries, TSMC).

Which already have been recouped since those business exist for decades after that its only the total of salaries of the people that work there divided by the total units produced :)

 

27 minutes ago, Spotty said:

Again, if you actually believe you could produce HDDs for a few dollars then please do so. I'll be your first customer buying a dozen 8TB drives for $20 each.

Well I dont have a factory (and yes it costs money to make a factory but as I said due to economics of scale since they produce millions of them + their decade long existence all this has been taken care of.. )

 

Funny though but since you mentioned 8TB drivers their market price is about 180 USD (and think that the only difference comparing to smaller drivers in terms of manufacturing cost are that they have a few extra platters otherwise same cost for housing,PCB,chips,motor, magnets etc) 

 

I bought me two 8TB drives for about 90 USD each! you know how ? I bought them as external drives which have lower hype/interest + the target group is less gullible (people of old age that want to save movies and such not "gamers" or "enthusiasts" ) thus are marketed at a lower price.. I just removed the enclosure and whoops I have two internal 8TB disks for half the price... nobody had a loss in this procedure.. I only got less ripped off  :)

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When has anything ever sold for only the exact cost it takes to buy the materials needed to make it?  RnD costs is by far the biggest cost associated with anything technology, has and always will be.  Their margin is getting back on those costs.

 

  

5 minutes ago, papajo said:

 

I bought me two 8TB drives for about 90 USD each? you know how ? I bought them as external drives which have lower hype/interest + the target group is less gullible (people of old age that want to save movies and such not "gamers" or "enthusiasts" ) thus are marketed at a lower price.. I just removed the enclosure and whoops I have two internal 8TB disks for half the price... nobody had a loss in this procedure.. I only got less ripped of  :)

Have you never ever heard of what a loss leader is?  An item sold at or under cost to move units to create a customer base that will eventually come back to you for other profitable items.  I think you don't understand the economics of all this at all.  Shucking drives from cheap enclosures has nothing to do with the cost price to make them.

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1 minute ago, Samfisher said:

When has anything ever sold for only the exact cost

Do not lose focus, my rand is that Linus and other journalists mention that the high retail prices are due to higher cost.  I didnt say that they should sell according to how much their manufacturing cost is.. they are not charities but dont give me the BS that they try to keep prices low but manufacturing costs dont allow them to do so... that's ridiculous

 

2 minutes ago, Samfisher said:

RnD costs is by far the biggest cost associated with anything technology, has and always will be.  Their margin is getting back on those costs.

That's a very vague argument and yes sounds so solid.. but its not  there might be extra RnD costs involved but it varies hugely upon the products and category... e.g computer mice... they dont have not nearly the same RnD costs as e.g CPUs... yet you see big "gamer" brands selling mice that cost 12$ to make at 100-200$ pricetags...

 

Also especially in tech RnD costs are comparatively lower compared to other industries because they mainly have to do with "arbitrary" or "intangible" things.. like how to design (or in other words draw) a processor which means that less real material and manpower is used and more brainpower and simulation is used compared to other industries or in other words RnD in those sectors is more like the salaries of the Ph.D scientists you pay to think of something.  

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10 minutes ago, papajo said:

and think that the only difference comparing to smaller drivers in terms of manufacturing cost are that they have a few extra platters otherwise same cost for housing,PCB,chips,motor, magnets etc

Oh, is that so? Then what about HAMR, SMR, TDMR and so on and so forth? Oh, right, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

Hand, n. A singular instrument worn at the end of the human arm and commonly thrust into somebody’s pocket.

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12 minutes ago, papajo said:

I bought me two 8TB drives for about 90 USD each! you know how ? I bought them as external drives which have lower hype/interest + the target group is less gullible (people of old age that want to save movies and such not "gamers" or "enthusiasts" ) thus are marketed at a lower price.. I just removed the enclosure and whoops I have two internal 8TB disks for half the price... nobody had a loss in this procedure.. I only got less ripped off  :)

If capacity is all you care about, that's great. This has been well known for a long time for people looking for cheap bulk storage. However not all drives are the same, and that applies at 8TB as well as other capacities. Without knowing the specific model in question, chances are they are optimised for cost, not performance. Low spindle speed, or possibly the worst thing to happen to hard disks if you care at all about performance: shingled recording. 

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3 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

Oh, is that so? Then what about HAMR, SMR, TDMR and so on and so forth? Oh, right, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

What about them ? HAMR was a thing decades ago even sony mini-disk used that technique and they were dirt cheap 

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2 minutes ago, porina said:

If capacity is all you care about, that's great. This has been well known for a long time for people looking for cheap bulk storage. However not all drives are the same, and that applies at 8TB as well as other capacities. Without knowing the specific model in question, chances are they are optimised for cost, not performance. Low spindle speed, or possibly the worst thing to happen to hard disks if you care at all about performance: shingled recording. 

they ones I got are essentially WD blues. 

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You again have no idea of what you're talking about, minidisc is magneto-optical, and very different although the principle seems similar.

HAMR for hard drives is only just about to come within the next year or so. And manufacturers have spent almost a decade of R&D in getting it to work (there are articles from back in 2013 when it was "about to come"), guess what it was harder than that and still isn't there yet. 

 

You can't recoup, nor make reserve for years of development by selling products at the cost of the parts.

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Quote

any GPU for example doesnt cost more than about 30$ to manufacture yet they can have a retail price of even 1000$.

@papajoI think you do forget things such as contribution margin per product, allocations of costs per department, fixed costs which have to

be covered and most importantly the cost of all the Research & Development that has gone into these products. 

 

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5 minutes ago, papajo said:

That's a very vague argument and yes sounds so solid.. but its not  there might be extra RnD costs involved but it varies hugely upon the products and category... e.g computer mice... they dont have not nearly the same RnD costs as e.g CPUs... yet you see big "gamer" brands selling mice that cost 12$ to make at 100-200$ pricetags...

So Logitech had no RnD to create by far the best sensor on the market?  They didn't have to pay for RnD for a truly great wireless experience with their mice that doesn't get affected by nearby signals like WiFi?  You underestimate the cost of RnD solely because you have no idea what these items really are, and thus don't know what kind of RnD is required for such things.  You're just hand waving things away to fit your narrative that items like the venerable mouse can cost as much as they do because you fundametally don't understand the items you're talking about.

QUOTE ME IN A REPLY SO I CAN SEE THE NOTIFICATION!

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7 minutes ago, Samfisher said:

So Logitech had no RnD to create by far the best sensor on the market?  They didn't have to pay for RnD for a truly great wireless experience with their mice that doesn't get affected by nearby signals like WiFi?  You underestimate the cost of RnD solely because you have no idea what these items really are, and thus don't know what kind of RnD is required for such things.  You're just hand waving things away to fit your narrative that items like the venerable mouse can cost as much as they do because you fundametally don't understand the items you're talking about.

Ok can you say the same thing for ALL the other brands and models out there other than the specific Logitech model ? 

 

Guys you are so eager to just diss me that you'll end up saying that all those companies do us a favor selling at such low prices and that their profit margins are almost a charity and we should thank them... 

 

I understand very well what I am talking about and although I dont know the specifics of the mouse in question I assume you mean the logitech mx master 3? I can assure you that isolating a device from 2.4Ghz or 5GHz signals (wifi) is not a huge deal there are tons of cheap devices that need to have that feature in order to work properly 

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4 minutes ago, papajo said:

 

 

I understand very well what I am talking about and although I dont know the specifics of the mouse in question I assume you mean the logitech mx master 3? 

Logitech G pro wireless buddy.

 

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