Amazon under fire - Unsafe products and regulating online sales

[Guest]

As many of you may have read in these forums, the UK plan to allow OFCOM to regulate website content that may cause harm to individuals. Today seens an interesting twist on that which involves the sale of goods.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51497010

 

Quote

Amazon: Suspect child car seats found for sale on its store again

The products were discovered by BBC Panorama as part of a wider-ranging programme.

The US firm has repeatedly faced complaints about listing such seats.

A case dating back to 2013 led to a trading standards investigation that confirmed one example would tear apart if involved in a 30mph (48km/h) crash.

More recently, Which? magazine found examples on Amazon of fabric-based seats that lacked the required safety labelling in 2019. Other outlets, including eBay, were also found to be selling the items at the time.

No safety labels

Four obscure brands were involved in the latest case.

One listing described the product as being an "Infant Safe Seat" capable of preventing injury to a baby if a car urgently braked. It was on sale for just £3.99.

Panorama attempted to contact the brands involved. It received a reply from only one of them, which said it was not the manufacturer.

The programme purchased three of the suspect seats. They appeared similar in design to some of those involved in the 2013 case and lacked safety labels.

To be fair, if you are a parent why the hell would you trust a £3.99 car seat to the safety of your most precious? You have to have a screw loose if you do. However, as Which say..

 

Quote

Online harm

At present, the operators of online markets, including Amazon Marketplace, are exempt from liability if they are not aware of illegal content being sold on their platform.

But Which? has campaigned for this to change as part of the forthcoming Online Harms Bill.

"The voluntary nature of current checks by marketplaces fails to recognise their role as the primary interface for consumers with the technical, as well as commercial, ability to hold their suppliers to account for consumer safety," it blogged in November.

"Clearer government guidance is needed while this legislation is being drafted."

Currently there are laws that prevent unsafe items from being sold in the EU. However, there are huge loopholes in that things can be sold through online overseas stores. What this often means is there are huge warehouses full of unsafe crap in Europe and the UK but are sold by an outside of the EU store. I could go online right now and inside minutes find and purchase some very unsafe electronics and have it arrive in my home tomorrow. The problem is, people trust stores like Amazon, and often have no idea the goods they are purchasing could potentially kill. Odd however that people do realise this about the bay of fleas and continue to purchase iffy kit from there.

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Amazon has sent emails to consumers who purchased the removed seats.

They said: "The product you received from a third-party seller may not be compliant with applicable child restraint standards.

"If you still have this product, please stop using it immediately, cut the straps to ensure it cannot be used, and dispose of the item."

Fair enough, it is something they have to do really.

Quote

Amazon's UK chief said the company took proactive steps to ensure the products it sold were safe.

"Automated algorithms [survey] over five billion product pages every day and we monitors tens of millions of customer reviews," Doug Gurr said.

So it is up to US to leave reviews so they know iffy items are being sold through their store? Doesn't sound good enough to me, especially as I have reported items to them in the past with detailed explanations to how they have been illegal for sale in the UK and yet those products remain today. 

 

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In a follow-up statement, the firm added: "Safety is extremely important to us and we regret that these products were available from third-party sellers using our stores.

Again, sloping shoulders. I can go on right now and find numerous unsafe goods for sale.

 

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"After a thorough investigation, we identified the issue and are removing these products, and we're also contacting each customer who purchased one of these products to explain the situation and issue a refund.

Well actually, it was the BBCs Panorama program that did the investigation so Amazon really were left without a choice.

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"We will continue to leverage and improve our tools and technology to ensure only safe and compliant car seats are available worldwide."

So what about the hundreds of other unsafe products that are being sold? Do governments need to introduce legislation to make online sales portals liable for products sold through their platforms? Certainly we are coming to a time where action needs to be taken. Not sure though that should be up to governments but time will tell.

 

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Amazon: What They Know About Us will be broadcast on BBC One at 20:30GMT

I am sure it will be a bit sensationalist but I bet it will also be interesting. 

[paddy-stone]

6 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

To be fair, if you are a parent why the hell would you trust a £3.99 car seat to the safety of your most precious? You have to have a screw loose if you do

I agree to some extent, BUT the price of an item does not determine it's quality, or indeed in this case it's safety. This type of thinking does more harm than good, to think the price denotes some kind of quality, build etc.

[RejZoR]

1 minute ago, paddy-stone said:

I agree to some extent, BUT the price of an item does not determine it's quality, or indeed in this case it's safety. This type of thinking does more harm than good, to think the price denotes some kind of quality, build etc.

In case of a 4 pounds child seat, it does. The price is just ridiculous and nonsensical. You can't even get a bicycle helmet for that price.

[paddy-stone]

3 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

In case of a 4 pounds child seat, it does. The price is just ridiculous and nonsensical. You can't even get a bicycle helmet for that price.

No, it's still the safety of the item in question... people should obviously check for safety marks, and reviews of items that are for protecting against harm. It's not the price.

eg if you had 2 similar items, and they both have adequate safety marks and good reviews, would you pick the one that was $800 or the one that is $1500, because you think paying more makes it better?

[Ramrod126]

5 minutes ago, paddy-stone said:

No, it's still the safety of the item in question... people should obviously check for safety marks, and reviews of items that are for protecting against harm. It's not the price.

eg if you had 2 similar items, and they both have adequate safety marks and good reviews, would you pick the one that was $800 or the one that is $1500, because you think paying more makes it better?

While this is true we all know there are some overseas manufacturers that will forge safety markings. I would also say you can't really trust reviews. Companies have been known to pay for them. I'm not going to mention any particular countries that are guilty of this, I am just going to say "Buy an iPhone for 50 dollars".

[RejZoR]

9 minutes ago, paddy-stone said:

No, it's still the safety of the item in question... people should obviously check for safety marks, and reviews of items that are for protecting against harm. It's not the price.

eg if you had 2 similar items, and they both have adequate safety marks and good reviews, would you pick the one that was $800 or the one that is $1500, because you think paying more makes it better?

I generally don't believe sellers. Usually coz they are mostly from China and they all lie about things. If you were ever buying on AliExpress you know what I'm talking about. And if it's a 2€ USB cable I don't even care. If my child's life would depend on it, I'd do a good research on it and price would probably be the last among factors involved.

[paddy-stone]

3 minutes ago, Ramrod126 said:

While this is true we all know there are some overseas manufacturers that will forge safety markings. I would also say you can't really trust reviews. Companies have been known to pay for them. I'm not going to mention any particular countries that are guilty of this, I am just going to say "Buy an iPhone for 50 dollars".

Yes, I know this, but it's still not a case of price dictating worth etc. Eg those same items being sold for $150, literally just the price is different, doesn't make them better products.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying buying those items are good, I'm just saying the "price" doesn't make them bad items. I wouldn't buy them myself, but I would however make an informed decision on what to buy when it comes to safety equipment.

[paddy-stone]

1 minute ago, RejZoR said:

I generally don't believe sellers. Usually coz they are mostly from China and they all lie about things. If you were ever buying on AliExpress you know what I'm talking about. And if it's a 2€ USB cable I don't even care. If my child's life would depend on it, I'd do a good research on it and price would probably be the last among factors involved.

Yes, this is what I am saying too... it's not the price that makes an item bad still though, it just means that you would have to be more vigilant about whether to buy said item. Like in your example, 2 USB cables, 1 being sold for $2, and one being sold for $15... the $15 one isn't necessarily better is all I am saying.

[Ramrod126]

1 minute ago, paddy-stone said:

Yes, I know this, but it's still not a case of price dictating worth etc. Eg those same items being sold for $150, literally just the price is different, doesn't make them better products.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying buying those items are good, I'm just saying the "price" doesn't make them bad items. I wouldn't buy them myself, but I would however make an informed decision on what to buy when it comes to safety equipment.

OK, that made your position much clearer. I know I have bought an item from, well, Wish for 1/4 of the price I bought the same product from Amazon. Both products perform equally and neither have broken. That being said these were no where near life saving products. What I bought was a "novelty" item and they seem to be of equal quality. I also know that amazon sells wish type products directly from "that country", usually for more money. I guess all I am trying to say is don't skimp on something that is meant to save your life or the life of others.

[Ramrod126]

4 minutes ago, paddy-stone said:

Yes, this is what I am saying too... it's not the price that makes an item bad still though, it just means that you would have to be more vigilant about whether to buy said item. Like in your example, 2 USB cables, 1 being sold for $2, and one being sold for $15... the $15 one isn't necessarily better is all I am saying.

EXACTLY, my wife and I both got new phones. Both are USB C when our other phones were mini. I bought a 6 pack of varied length cables for around 14 bucks. They are braided, they are fast charge and they work great. I get that they are knock offs but they work...once again, not a life or death choice though.

[greenmax]

Quote

Unsafe products

You know I was wondering about that last year.

Next question is, is it Amazon branded products and products sold by Amazon?

Thats why I buy things like jeans online and not food, or baby toys, or Amazon branded eye drops.

You get the drift.

[TempestCatto]

May as well buy a car seat off of Wish. There are certain things I will not buy online because I must feel it with my own hands. I need to know if what I'm getting is quality or not. A car seat for a child is no exception to that. I guarantee in a blind test where you're handed both car seats, you'll be able to tell which one costed 4 quid and which one was purchased at a big box store. The 4 quid one will undoubtedly be much lighter (amoung other things).

[greenmax]

1 hour ago, Phill104 said:

To be fair, if you are a parent why the hell would you trust a £3.99 car seat to the safety of your most precious? You have to have a screw loose if you do.

Some people are dumb as fuck.

 

Darwinism should be working but I'd hate to see innocent people getting hurt.

[paddy-stone]

1 hour ago, Ramrod126 said:

OK, that made your position much clearer. I know I have bought an item from, well, Wish for 1/4 of the price I bought the same product from Amazon. Both products perform equally and neither have broken. That being said these were no where near life saving products. What I bought was a "novelty" item and they seem to be of equal quality. I also know that amazon sells wish type products directly from "that country", usually for more money. I guess all I am trying to say is don't skimp on something that is meant to save your life or the life of others.

 

1 hour ago, Ramrod126 said:

EXACTLY, my wife and I both got new phones. Both are USB C when our other phones were mini. I bought a 6 pack of varied length cables for around 14 bucks. They are braided, they are fast charge and they work great. I get that they are knock offs but they work...once again, not a life or death choice though.

 

 

Yes, I had already said that.

 

2 hours ago, paddy-stone said:

the price of an item does not determine it's quality, or indeed in this case it's safety

 

2 hours ago, paddy-stone said:

No, it's still the safety of the item in question

 

2 hours ago, paddy-stone said:

people should obviously check for safety marks, and reviews of items that are for protecting against harm. It's not the price

 

My argument, or position, was that price does NOT make a product good or in this case bad. People have and do make shoddy products that are priced to make the buyer think they are worthwhile and suitable for purpose... but just because the price is in the hundreds or thousands doesn't make it suitable/safe. There is no regulation on items price where they validate the items suitability.

In this particular case, yes it should be clearer to the purchaser that a safe/decent product would cost more to make and deem safe than the product in question was being sold for... but regardless people shouldn't associate price with suitability/build/quality, or in this case, safety. It would be no consolation to you if a car seat that cost hundreds still failed safety checks would it?

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, paddy-stone said:

 

 

 

Yes, I had already said that.

 

 

 

 

My argument, or position, was that price does NOT make a product good or in this case bad. People have and do make shoddy products that are priced to make the buyer think they are worthwhile and suitable for purpose... but just because the price is in the hundreds or thousands doesn't make it suitable/safe. There is no regulation on items price where they validate the items suitability.

In this particular case, yes it should be clearer to the purchaser that a safe/decent product would cost more to make and deem safe than the product in question was being sold for... but regardless people shouldn't associate price with suitability/build/quality, or in this case, safety. It would be no consolation to you if a car seat that cost hundreds still failed safety checks would it?

It also goes the other way. For instance, a couple of years back Amazon had loads of camera batteries for sale online that were counterfeit. These were popular sizes such as the Canon LP-E6. They were sold at only a few pounds under the selling price for the time to make people think they were getting the genuine product at a slight discount. Many were fooled and a few caught fire whilst on charge. It is often the practice with counterfeit goods made for next to nothing but sold near the normal selling price. It makes it hard for both the platform, Amazon in this case, and the buyer to detect until something goes wrong.

[paddy-stone]

21 hours ago, Phill104 said:

It also goes the other way. For instance, a couple of years back Amazon had loads of camera batteries for sale online that were counterfeit. These were popular sizes such as the Canon LP-E6. They were sold at only a few pounds under the selling price for the time to make people think they were getting the genuine product at a slight discount. Many were fooled and a few caught fire whilst on charge. It is often the practice with counterfeit goods made for next to nothing but sold near the normal selling price. It makes it hard for both the platform, Amazon in this case, and the buyer to detect until something goes wrong.

Yes, this is also one of the points I made earlier, you can't rely on the price to indicate suitability or not as the case may be... the price is immaterial to the goods, it's people thinking price is an indicator of suitability/safety/build quality etc that is the problem really.

There are items that I have found cheaply, that are as good or in some cases better than brand name. But I also have given a number of items a go too, that turned out to be trash... So I tend to only buy stuff cheaply now that I can afford to junk if it turns out badly. For items that I NEED to be good, I look at reviews from trusted sources where possible, that goes for branded goods too... don't get fooled by the brand name supposedly being an indicator of build/quality etc either, I have had some branded goods that I thought would be good, turn out to be trash too.

[Leviathan-]

On 2/17/2020 at 7:30 AM, paddy-stone said:

I agree to some extent, BUT the price of an item does not determine it's quality, or indeed in this case it's safety. This type of thinking does more harm than good, to think the price denotes some kind of quality, build etc.

I agree with the point your making and I'll add on to it by reminding everyone kids are expensive.

A lot of people barely get by and they have no kids, now add a kid to that and use your imagination. I'm not opening this into a "then dont have kids then" debate so please don't try. The real problem that no one here, especially OP is failing to recognize is that these cheap products are mostly targeted to low income people/families.

If you just buy the cheapest stuff you can because you're super cheap and don't have common sense for safety or reputation of the manufacturer, that's plain on you.

[greenmax]

5 hours ago, Leviathan- said:

that these cheap products are mostly targeted to low income people/families.

Which correlates, to some degree, how smart people are. Not saying all poor people are dumb but they are poor for a reason.

Then again, rich people are dumb to.

Let the complaints flow.

[bcredeur97]

44 minutes ago, greenmax said:

Which correlates, to some degree, how smart people are. Not saying all poor people are dumb but they are poor for a reason.

Then again, rich people are dumb to.

Let the complaints flow.

we're all stupid in some way. We all don't know everything.

[Fnige]

15 minutes ago, bcredeur97 said:

we're all stupid

FTFY

[Beskamir]

Having watched Thought Emporium's video on radioactive snake oil bracelets that are sold on Amazon, this news really doesn't surprise me as much as it should.

 

 

[Anomnomnomaly]

On 2/17/2020 at 3:30 PM, paddy-stone said:

I agree to some extent, BUT the price of an item does not determine it's quality, or indeed in this case it's safety. This type of thinking does more harm than good, to think the price denotes some kind of quality, build etc.

Actually the old Iron Triangle addage applies with a little tweaking... You can have it cheap, safe and good... pick 2.

[Anomnomnomaly]

6 hours ago, greenmax said:

Which correlates, to some degree, how smart people are. Not saying all poor people are dumb but they are poor for a reason.

Then again, rich people are dumb to.

Let the complaints flow.

A person can be smart.... but people in groups generally dumb down to the lowest common denominator.

[paddy-stone]

14 hours ago, greenmax said:

Not saying all poor people are dumb but they are poor for a reason.

Trump, is that you?

 

Saying people are poor for a reason is stupid... there are many circumstances where a person can be poor and not have a choice in the matter. There is a great saying, "You can't understand someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes."... just because you can't think of a reason why a smart person could still be poor, doesn't mean there aren't some.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, paddy-stone said:

Trump, is that you?

 

Saying people are poor for a reason is stupid... there are many circumstances where a person can be poor and not have a choice in the matter. There is a great saying, "You can't understand someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes."... just because you can't think of a reason why a smart person could still be poor, doesn't mean there aren't some.

A prime example of that is a friend of mine who lives in the US. Just after the company he worked for went bust (meaning his medical insurance ended) his wife fell seriously ill. He is a very highly qualified man, ex forces and with three degrees. He has spent the last three years caring for his wife and trying to look after his young children. The medical bills have all but sent him bankrupt. He still does some work and claims no social. He is poor, but certainly far from stupid.