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Tesla returns yoinked self driving feature to second hand model S

spartaman64
15 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Now, what's more likely is for the government to simply introduce an EV registration renewal tax to compensate for the gasoline tax. You'd pay it yearly when you renew your license plates - it could be a flat fee, or it could be based on KM driven. Likely a flat fee would make more sense - it would be more reliable to predict income, and it would be easier for owners to swallow.

We have that in place here, petrol has road user tax included in the price but diesel does not include it. The reasoning behind that was a long, long, long time ago diesels were near exclusively used as work vehicles or off road so consumer road user taxes on something like that just didn't make any sense.

 

So for all diesel vehicles used on the road you have to pay road user charges yearly based on how far you have driven, this is cross checked against warrant of fitness/certificate of fitness checks to make sure you are not under reporting. It would actually be simple to just extend that to EV cars, at least for us.

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12 hours ago, Curious Pineapple said:

They already DO tax electricity, and where would they tax consumption anyway? Work? Home? Farm?  What about Renewables? Just because I own an EV doesn't mean it gets used or charged, I may buy one as a track or off road use car. In that case I have no obligation to pay tax on the fuel anyway. Don't pay fuel duty on wagons or farm vehicles here either. Don't even need to pay vehicle taxes on quad bikes and tractors if you own fields on opposite sides of a road (with limited usage).

Do it like they do with hot water heating here, hot water cylinders are connected to ripple control relays and the power company can turn them on and off as required and charge a different kwh unit rate for that. Add in another ripple control that is unique trigger, car chargers are connected to that and anything charge with it can be taxed for EV charging.

 

If you have a track day vehicle or a work vehicle get the charger installed on a non ripple control circuit, this should cost more to charge this way and ideally you have robust warrant of fitness checks for cars registered to use the road, you'd be a fool to try and hide on road usage if that was a thing. "Hmm 25k km more than last year, time to fine and charge this guy".

 

As for why it should be cheaper to charge an EV on a ripple control, like hot water the power companies have control so can manage load demand and additionally power is cheaper a night and being able to identify just the car charger kwh units used means you can charge a different rate for it, and if you're only allowing night charging or when load is low what you use is at cheaper times.

 

You could also take it a step further since ripple control can be microprocessor driven so you can put logic in to the system and be able to track charge states, allow override on critically low battery states, or something else that might come up.

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11 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

if fusion is coming in 5 years we would know already

No we wouldn't. Unless you look for the information yourself, you won't see it. You tell the masses that we're on the verge of a clean energy breakthrough and no fucker will give a damn about trying to reduce usage. ITER is predicted to be running by about 2025 with an output of 10 times the energy required to sustain the reaction, but it won't be feeding into the grid. It's an experimental reactor (the ER part of the name). There's also private companies building large (but still small compared to ITER) fusion reactors and some of them claim to be on track for commercial fusion energy in a similar timeframe. I believe the Chinese have made similar advances recently too by sustaining a reaction for several minutes on a small reactor, but still with no net output.

 

Remember, the hydrogen bomb is a fusion reactor, it just releases all it's energy at once.

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1 hour ago, Curious Pineapple said:

No we wouldn't. Unless you look for the information yourself, you won't see it. You tell the masses that we're on the verge of a clean energy breakthrough and no fucker will give a damn about trying to reduce usage. ITER is predicted to be running by about 2025 with an output of 10 times the energy required to sustain the reaction, but it won't be feeding into the grid. It's an experimental reactor (the ER part of the name). There's also private companies building large (but still small compared to ITER) fusion reactors and some of them claim to be on track for commercial fusion energy in a similar timeframe. I believe the Chinese have made similar advances recently too by sustaining a reaction for several minutes on a small reactor, but still with no net output.

 

Remember, the hydrogen bomb is a fusion reactor, it just releases all it's energy at once.

yes we would if we are going to build a fusion reactor in 5 years it would have probably already been in the planning phase and scientist would have already been excited and giving interviews about it and world governments would already be making plans for their energy needs around fusion. and the fact that isnt happening suggests that theres still needs to be some breakthroughs for it to be viable and those dont really have a timeline. maybe we get really lucky and some super genius will uncover all of them tomorrow or maybe we dont get them for the next 50 years.

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9 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

They could ban the sale of gas cars tomorrow and it would still be decades before they were gone. I dont know why you think just banning selling new cars would make them obsolete. My truck in the driveway is 27 years old. It still has years left in it. Are you under the impression that cars die after a few years only? Shit my mechanics truck is from 1965 and id be willing to bet he will keep that truck alive longer then any tesla bought this year.

 

Oh and just because something is talked about now or planned doesnt mean its going to happen. You think California has never pushed back plans before?

Decades to die out? maybe maybe not. If the government who wants their nation to go green finds their people refusing to make the move can easily refuse to renew said vehicles.

 

I doubt they will this time because of the effects from the EV1 like I said. Also 10 years is a long time to change.

 

9 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

Again. Public transport is not an option for hundreds of thousands of people. I have no clue why you are under the impression where everyone lives in a city and the local store is a quick jog down the road. Its incredibly ignorant of you to think its "stupid" to live in the country and just drive to the city. But i guess in your head 330 million people can all live in a city. 

 

Used cars are cheap. Esp in rural areas. Its not hard to find a running car in the $1k thatll last you a long time. Even when you factor in the cost of a used car or cost to repair it. its a fraction of the cost. 40k for a tesla. As shown in this very thread thats not reasonably obtainable for alot of people. So whats your answer? Fuck em, let em starve to death? So if someone cant afford a 40k car they could never afford a $1k car or a $500 repair right? Or in your mind is every car repair going to cost 20k?

 

And who said anything about eating healthy? I never talked about their diet. I said they wouldnt be able to get food period. Healthy or not.

 

Your whole argument is basically "if they are too poor to afford a EV they arent worth worrying about" Your whole argument is asinine.

 

If public transportation is not a option and you don't travel into the city then a EV of any type is literally a smarter choice then keeping a old used and high maintenance car of any type of ICE including a hybrid. Also I've never seen a small town without a store that sells food anywhere, if you live in such a place and need to travel more than 15 minutes for food you are a idiot for living there. Farms are obviously excluded from this but based on your reply you'd prob use that against me somehow.

 

used cars are cheap, also i've never once stated everyone should go out and buy a tesla, all I said is they have the upper hand based on charging network. Also because I live in Canada most cars that are in your "$1000" price range are likely not road worthy guess that's the difference between countries. Also a $500 repair might sound small but if you are forced to buy a 1k car you prob shouldn't be driving unless you like wasting money. If you do that 500 repair will your car be worth more than the 1000 you paid? Nope, so your car now costs 1500, if you bought a cheap car that becomes riddled with problems which I would expect for 1000.

 

You can get a cheap and reliable i3 for about 15,000 used I think, so while that car has horrid value to buy new it is a great used car to own.

 

The eating healthy was to show how people like to bitch and whine about change, claiming it to be too costly. Change is only costly to early adapters (S,X,Roadster), we are no longer in early adapter environment. If that person buying the 1000 car can afford a loan of $15,000 less deposit they should buy a i3 (esp if it's at 0% for 3 or 5 years), why? If they genuinely live in a place with a store and work in the area where the car would survive the day it'll save them money and hassle in the long run. Remember $500 bill is cheap if a brake goes as well or if your engine needs work that 1000 car quickly becomes a buyers remorse object that could be sitting somewhere for a week, thats a week of no driving or high costs car rentals. ICE needs to die not just for environmental reasons but for the peoples pocket. Remove all petty waa waa my cars paint job isn't great or my panel isn't aligned right Tesla service BS how frequent do they actually need to go in? Compare that to a ICE car that you follow the maintenance plan with. Now tack on your hourly wage you make to take your car to said place and back plus the cost of said place plus if you wait for it to be done as well. Once you look at that a ICE engine becomes really expensive to justify. While yes you won't make that money, but the point is your time is worth more than slaving away to a vehicle that the next day could be more demanding than a drama queen wife wanting that new $1000 necklace she saw yesterday.

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13 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

Its going to be decades and decades before gas powered cars die off. I doubt It will even be in any of our life times tbh.

The UK plans to stop sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035, and 2040 is a frequent target elsewhere.  Even if the US doesn't follow suit, it might not matter much if all the new European cars are EVs and most of the American ones are, too.  After that point, I wouldn't be surprised if the number of gas-powered cars in use shrank dramatically, if it wasn't already by that point.

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13 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

Are dead, yes some are being made but GM has produced far more EVs than HFVs in total. 

I should clarify -- I'm not expecting hydrogen vehicles to be more than a minority.  More than likely, you'll see hydrogen used for semis, buses and other vehicles where very long range is important and custom filling stations are practical.

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1 hour ago, Egg-Roll said:

Snip 

Nothing more expensive than a cheap beamer...

 

Also good luck getting 0% on a used car loan.

 

Also also, you vastly overestimate repair frequency. Coming from someone who has had ICE vehicles for 170k miles, 220k miles, 137k miles, and the most recent only at 40k miles. 

 

Engine issues are not actually common (exactly one of those vehicles have had one), brakes will last less time true (though hybrids negate that benefit), oil changes every 10-15k miles (my current car literally recommends every 15k miles, and in europe oil changes are even less common than the US despite being basically the same cars) is not exactly high maintenance considering that adds less than 1/3rd of a cent per mile to do and takes far less than an hour at every interval you do it.

 

Suspension, tire/wheels, air filters, coolant changes, glass/body work, are all systems that are form and function identical and all more common than engine/transmission issues. 

 

EVs straight up aren't cheaper to use in my part of the US (see comparison earlier) even taking their high efficiency into account and assuming you are using home power (far cheaper than dc fast charger). 

 

To buy they only actually make sense for people (here) who are stupid enough to buy new cars normally, and only because depreciation is way better than most ICE cars.

 

 

**again disclaimer that I like EVs, I enjoy them, and I don't plan on buying another ICE car again, but they are good enough as is to not need to make shit up and massively exaggerate to justify them**

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1 hour ago, spartaman64 said:

yes we would if we are going to build a fusion reactor in 5 years it would have probably already been in the planning phase and scientist would have already been excited and giving interviews about it and world governments would already be making plans for their energy needs around fusion. and the fact that isnt happening suggests that theres still needs to be some breakthroughs for it to be viable and those dont really have a timeline. maybe we get really lucky and some super genius will uncover all of them tomorrow or maybe we dont get them for the next 50 years.

They are still trying to get the energy output of fusion higher than that of the energy input. Last I heard they were only just barely cracking that, there's no way it's going to be commercially viable in 5 years, not even 10.

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14 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

While a lot of the rest of the statement is true...

 

This one is not in much (it definitely is true in a decent chunk though) of the US, unfortunately. Not compared to midsized sedans hybrids or small car (even small hybrid crossovers) that get 40-50 MPG.

 

Gas is something like 50 cents a liter here, and electricity (for me) is around 20 cents a kWh. 

 

Say 40 MPG (I've averaged 45 in 40k miles on my fusion hybrid) for 2.20 a gallon. That's 5.5 cents a mile in gas. 

 

Now say 120 MPGe (per 33.4 kWh) tesla model 3 at 20 cents per kWh. That comes out at 5.57 cents a mile in electricity. And that is being very generous in electric efficiency.

 

That's also assuming you aren't using a privately owned business charger that you pay 2-8x the going rate for electricity on.

 

 

Point being for a lot of Americans, it isn't even cheaper to run the most efficient electric car on the market and compare it to vehicles that can be bought for literally 1/4th the price (I paid 14500 for my CPO 2018 fusion hybrid)....

 

 

Of course, electric cars are WAY MORE FUN and WAY FASTER than those efficiency oriented cars I compared it to, and I won't buy another gas car ever, personally. But it is unfortunately simply not true that they are automatically cheaper.

Where do you live that you pay $0.20/kWh overnight (when an EV would be charging)?

 

Even in Ontario (of which Residents like to

pretend we have some of the highest rates), we only pay $0.208/kWh during PEAK usage time of day. 
 

Overnight it’s $0.101/kWh here - literally half the cost of your calculations. 

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21 minutes ago, Commodus said:

The UK plans to stop sales of combustion engine vehicles by 2035, and 2040 is a frequent target elsewhere.  Even if the US doesn't follow suit, it might not matter much if all the new European cars are EVs and most of the American ones are, too.  After that point, I wouldn't be surprised if the number of gas-powered cars in use shrank dramatically, if it wasn't already by that point.

Just because you ban the sales of gas powered cars dont mean they go away right away.

 

2040 is 2 decades away. And then youd have to wait for all the gas powered cars to die off after that. Its not uncommon at all for cars to last decades.

 

Like i said earlier. I have a truck thats almost 30 years old right now. I could easily afford to keep that truck alive another 30 years for much much cheaper then even a used EV goes for. My buddy has a 65 chevy truck. Its in perfect condition (hes a mechanic) and id bet money its still going past 2040.

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26 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Where do you live that you pay $0.20/kWh overnight (when an EV would be charging)?

 

Even in Ontario (of which Residents like to

pretend we have some of the highest rates), we only pay $0.208/kWh during PEAK usage time of day. 
 

Overnight it’s $0.101/kWh here - literally half the cost of your calculations. 

Our peak-offpeak system rates are not dramatically different. Official rate is actually 17 cents an kWh (21-15) but user fees and other shit pushes it to ~20. Upper midwest/suburban america hahaha

 

Well official+per kWh distro fees... which doesn't include per day fees and user fees... ugh. Like how does 55 dollars for 216 kWh sound? Cause that's a real bill in the last year I've had.

 

**edit: looked up the real bill**

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2 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

yes we would if we are going to build a fusion reactor in 5 years it would have probably already been in the planning phase and scientist would have already been excited and giving interviews about it and world governments would already be making plans for their energy needs around fusion. and the fact that isnt happening suggests that theres still needs to be some breakthroughs for it to be viable and those dont really have a timeline. maybe we get really lucky and some super genius will uncover all of them tomorrow or maybe we dont get them for the next 50 years.

ITER. And it's a huge project. But that doesn't mean commerical fusion is 5 years away. More like 25 in best case. But that's pointless anyways. Fission is more than good enough and the real reason it's expensive is that we stopped making them. It's STILL safer than renewables and better for the environment too.

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2 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

yes we would if we are going to build a fusion reactor in 5 years it would have probably already been in the planning phase and scientist would have already been excited and giving interviews about it and world governments would already be making plans for their energy needs around fusion. and the fact that isnt happening suggests that theres still needs to be some breakthroughs for it to be viable and those dont really have a timeline. maybe we get really lucky and some super genius will uncover all of them tomorrow or maybe we dont get them for the next 50 years.

Go look up ITER, it's about 5 years from completion and energy production for research.

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1 hour ago, Egg-Roll said:

Decades to die out? maybe maybe not. If the government who wants their nation to go green finds their people refusing to make the move can easily refuse to renew said vehicles.

 

I doubt they will this time because of the effects from the EV1 like I said. Also 10 years is a long time to change.

 

If public transportation is not a option and you don't travel into the city then a EV of any type is literally a smarter choice then keeping a old used and high maintenance car of any type of ICE including a hybrid. Also I've never seen a small town without a store that sells food anywhere, if you live in such a place and need to travel more than 15 minutes for food you are a idiot for living there. Farms are obviously excluded from this but based on your reply you'd prob use that against me somehow.

You must know very very little about the US if you think they would be able to just tell poor people they arent going to allow them to renew the registration on their perfectly running gas powered car.

 

And why is it dumb to live in an area where the nearest store is 15+ minutes away? Thats a dumb statement.

Not counting gas stations (which you wouldnt unless you consider being able to buy jerky and twinkies a food store) the nearest grocery store is about a 12 minute drive away from me. If I was to walk that it would be much longer and id have to walk on the highway (which is illegal) please explain to me how i am an idiot for living here? Are you under the impression that its hard to live in an area where your not close to things? Do you not realize how many people choose to do that?

 

Just because youve never seen an area that doesnt have a grocery store close by doesnt mean they dont exist. you clearly know very little about a big part of the US. And food is only one issue. What about people living in a rural areas that need to go to the doctor? need to get to their bank? what about the people who drive 45+ mins to work everyday?

1 hour ago, Egg-Roll said:

used cars are cheap, also i've never once stated everyone should go out and buy a tesla, all I said is they have the upper hand based on charging network. Also because I live in Canada most cars that are in your "$1000" price range are likely not road worthy guess that's the difference between countries. Also a $500 repair might sound small but if you are forced to buy a 1k car you prob shouldn't be driving unless you like wasting money. If you do that 500 repair will your car be worth more than the 1000 you paid? Nope, so your car now costs 1500, if you bought a cheap car that becomes riddled with problems which I would expect for 1000.

 

You can get a cheap and reliable i3 for about 15,000 used I think, so while that car has horrid value to buy new it is a great used car to own.

 

The eating healthy was to show how people like to bitch and whine about change, claiming it to be too costly. Change is only costly to early adapters (S,X,Roadster), we are no longer in early adapter environment. If that person buying the 1000 car can afford a loan of $15,000 less deposit they should buy a i3 (esp if it's at 0% for 3 or 5 years), why? If they genuinely live in a place with a store and work in the area where the car would survive the day it'll save them money and hassle in the long run. Remember $500 bill is cheap if a brake goes as well or if your engine needs work that 1000 car quickly becomes a buyers remorse object that could be sitting somewhere for a week, thats a week of no driving or high costs car rentals. ICE needs to die not just for environmental reasons but for the peoples pocket. Remove all petty waa waa my cars paint job isn't great or my panel isn't aligned right Tesla service BS how frequent do they actually need to go in? Compare that to a ICE car that you follow the maintenance plan with. Now tack on your hourly wage you make to take your car to said place and back plus the cost of said place plus if you wait for it to be done as well. Once you look at that a ICE engine becomes really expensive to justify. While yes you won't make that money, but the point is your time is worth more than slaving away to a vehicle that the next day could be more demanding than a drama queen wife wanting that new $1000 necklace she saw yesterday.

Someone whos buying a $1k car doesnt give a shit about the cars value. I paid $1300 for my car, Paid $750 for my truck. Throwing $500 down to fix either one of them wouldnt be hard. Would the cars value be worth it? idk and i really dont care. the value of only spending $500 to be able to fix a car is a much better value then spending 20k on a new one.  And it doesnt have to be a $1k car. you can find much better cars for less then $5k which is still a fraction of the cost of an EV. With financing a less fortunate earner could much easier buy a 5k car then a 20k+ car.

 

If a person can only afford a $1k car you really think they can get a $15k loan? why would they be looking at $1k cars if they can afford a 15k loan? And you think a person in that financial situation is going to get a loan for 0% for 5 years??? what disney movie world are you living in?

 

And your whole cost of repairs means literally nothing. If you take care of a gas car it will last. its not hard. like I said my beater truck in the driveway is 27 years old with all original parts.

 

Again nothing you have said makes any sense at all. You seem to know basically nothing about US geography (which is fine. your not in the US, idk anything about canadas. difference is im not trying to act like i do know canadas) or about financial decisions and the economy.  Your whole argument relies on everyone either living in a city or being able to fork over 15k for a used EV. Yea your talking about things that millions of people cant do.

 

When EV get to the point where you can find used ones for the same price as cheap gas cars and everyone can afford one then gas cars will be gone. until then it wont happen. And again you know nothing about the way the US works if you think that they would just make a law that says poor people cant drive their gas cars. Will not happen any time soon.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Just because you ban the sales of gas powered cars dont mean they go away right away.

 

2040 is 2 decades away. And then youd have to wait for all the gas powered cars to die off after that. Its not uncommon at all for cars to last decades.

 

Like i said earlier. I have a truck thats almost 30 years old right now. I could easily afford to keep that truck alive another 30 years for much much cheaper then even a used EV goes for. My buddy has a 65 chevy truck. Its in perfect condition (hes a mechanic) and id bet money its still going past 2040.

Oh I know about all this -- I'm just saying the decline will happen sooner than you think.  Yeah, someone holding on to a classic car will likely keep it going for as long as possible, but that's not most buyers.  Many car buyers are getting run-of-the-mill models they keep for 10-ish years, and rarely much longer.  If you buy a Honda Civic right now, what's the likelihood there will even be a gas-powered Civic in 2030, let alone 2040?

 

Maybe it's a question of semantics.  When I say "die," I mean that the clear majority of cars you see on the road will be electric and that EVs will be treated as the norm, not that there will literally be no gas cars in operation.  I'm mainly arguing against those who act as if EVs are a fad, or that they'll still have the option of buying the gas guzzler of their choice in 2040.  Many people don't seem to realize that most major car brands are about to electrify in a big way in the next few years, and that there will likely be a tipping point several years after that (I'm guessing by the early 2030s) where your purchasing decision will come down to which EV you're buying, not whether you're buying an EV in the first place.

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11 minutes ago, Commodus said:

Oh I know about all this -- I'm just saying the decline will happen sooner than you think.  Yeah, someone holding on to a classic car will likely keep it going for as long as possible, but that's not most buyers.  Many car buyers are getting run-of-the-mill models they keep for 10-ish years, and rarely much longer.  If you buy a Honda Civic right now, what's the likelihood there will even be a gas-powered Civic in 2030, let alone 2040?

 

Maybe it's a question of semantics.  When I say "die," I mean that the clear majority of cars you see on the road will be electric and that EVs will be treated as the norm, not that there will literally be no gas cars in operation.  I'm mainly arguing against those who act as if EVs are a fad, or that they'll still have the option of buying the gas guzzler of their choice in 2040.  Many people don't seem to realize that most major car brands are about to electrify in a big way in the next few years, and that there will likely be a tipping point several years after that (I'm guessing by the early 2030s) where your purchasing decision will come down to which EV you're buying, not whether you're buying an EV in the first place.

I expect (in the US) in the 2040s, EVs will be to ICE as automatics are to manuals. They are on the market, there is enough variety to basically claim a choice, but only diehards would buy them new. Used market will take far longer to disappear though. 

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5 minutes ago, Commodus said:

Oh I know about all this -- I'm just saying the decline will happen sooner than you think.  Yeah, someone holding on to a classic car will likely keep it going for as long as possible, but that's not most buyers.  Many car buyers are getting run-of-the-mill models they keep for 10-ish years, and rarely much longer.  If you buy a Honda Civic right now, what's the likelihood there will even be a gas-powered Civic in 2030, let alone 2040?

 

Maybe it's a question of semantics.  When I say "die," I mean that the clear majority of cars you see on the road will be electric and that EVs will be treated as the norm, not that there will literally be no gas cars in operation.  I'm mainly arguing against those who act as if EVs are a fad, or that they'll still have the option of buying the gas guzzler of their choice in 2040.  Many people don't seem to realize that most major car brands are about to electrify in a big way in the next few years, and that there will likely be a tipping point several years after that (I'm guessing by the early 2030s) where your purchasing decision will come down to which EV you're buying, not whether you're buying an EV in the first place.

Oh no. im not saying EV are a fad. they will take over.

 

Im just saying that its going to be decades and decades before gas powered cars are off the road. Car makers will start making more of them but i believe that they will still be making gas powered cars basically until they cant (be it low demand or law).

 

If you bought a brand new honda civic right now with normal driving usage it could easily still be running past 2030.  And sure alot of people keep a car for 10 years and then buy a new one. but their old card doesnt just go away. its resold as a used car and someone else takes it. My cars an 07 and im the second owner. If i take care of it it should easily last me another 6-7 years and then if I want I could replace the engine and transmission and have it go for probably another 10 years or so.

 

Theres 270+ million gas cars in the US alone right now. and for the foreseeable future theres going to be even more new ones made. Then you have countries that have no infrastructure for EV right now and really no funds (say mexico for example). They will be driving gas cars for a long long time.

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3 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

EV of any type is literally a smarter choice

Ill give you an even smarter choice:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e0ymok6oupvojv7/20150127_113955.jpg?dl=0

 

Its old and somewhat slow but it makes up for that in terms of maintenance and fuel consumption. Maintaining this thing is dirt cheap as long as you use quality oil and parts. Old tech FTW :D .

Edited by jagdtigger
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3 hours ago, Curious Pineapple said:

Go look up ITER, it's about 5 years from completion and energy production for research.

ITER construction completion is projected for 2025, however ITER will not produce any electricity as it is a proof of concept only for a fusion reactor with a startup Q of 10 and a steady state of 5, doesn't mean they will actually achieve it. DEMO is the next fusion reactor project that will also have a goal of producing electricity and that is AGES away, 2048 for that. So there will basically be no commercial fusion reactors in use producing electricity before 2048 and even then it'll be some time after that, unless there is some major breakthroughs by then and construction done quickly.

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3 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

My cars an 07 and im the second owner. If i take care of it it should easily last me another 6-7 years and then if I want I could replace the engine and transmission and have it go for probably another 10 years or so.

If it's a Honda it'll be drivable for the next 30 years ?

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2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

If it's a Honda it'll be drivable for the next 30 years ?

Should be if taken care of.

 

I had a 93 prelude when i was younger that I sold to my brother and its still going with the original engine. And when that engine dies its a fairly easy engine swap so as long as it doesnt crash and total it I could see it going for another 20 years.

 

It amazes me that people think cars dont last.

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8 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

You must know very very little about the US if you think they would be able to just tell poor people they arent going to allow them to renew the registration on their perfectly running gas powered car.

 

And why is it dumb to live in an area where the nearest store is 15+ minutes away? Thats a dumb statement.

Not counting gas stations (which you wouldnt unless you consider being able to buy jerky and twinkies a food store) the nearest grocery store is about a 12 minute drive away from me. If I was to walk that it would be much longer and id have to walk on the highway (which is illegal) please explain to me how i am an idiot for living here? Are you under the impression that its hard to live in an area where your not close to things? Do you not realize how many people choose to do that?

 

Just because youve never seen an area that doesnt have a grocery store close by doesnt mean they dont exist. you clearly know very little about a big part of the US. And food is only one issue. What about people living in a rural areas that need to go to the doctor? need to get to their bank? what about the people who drive 45+ mins to work everyday?

You must know the US very little yourself, if the majority vote yes it happens. For how long it lasts that doesn't matter.

 

15+ minutes drive means in a crises where fuel becomes scarce (like a massive power outage, similar to 2003) you'll have to walk to said place or hope someone is able to help. Also depending on the type of highway if might not be illegal to actually walk it, for example while here in Ontario you can't walk on the 400 series you can walk on the highways that are 80km/h for the most part as long as you follow the rules of the road. 

 

Doctors can do in house calls, banking can be done online. As for the people who drive 45 minutes to work everyday a EV would actually save them money likely, a hybrid would definitely save them money. Not to mention I would expect them to be able to afford a new car every 5-7 years with that much driving as a 45 minute drive at 45mph is almost 17,000 miles a year.

 

8 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

If a person can only afford a $1k car you really think they can get a $15k loan? why would they be looking at $1k cars if they can afford a 15k loan? And you think a person in that financial situation is going to get a loan for 0% for 5 years??? what disney movie world are you living in?

Fun fact, yes they can you'd be surprised what big dealers are willing to do to get a sale. While not sure on used cars I can't see a low interest being a issue, esp with the shitty value of the i3, the image below is for a $15000 i3 with 21,000 miles. I'm sure you could haggle the interest rate down in person to push the sale of the worst depreciation of any known car on the market.

image.png.6a533fc3589c54375fc1a80a8d35270e.png

 

Now depending on that persons situation they may or may not be able to justify the $300 ($310 with 1000 down) a month on a car for 5 years. However these cars should last easily 6+ years with practically no maintenance even tho BMW's are know for that. So can one who is willing to buy a $1000 car and potentially spend hundreds per year in repairs afford a $15k loan as such? Yes they should, however depending on the situation for every person like a bare bones min wage 25 hour worker college student that person might not be able to do so which is fine. However for the most part if you are willing to risk buying a $1000 car then yes you likely could afford a $15k car.

8 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

or about financial decisions and the economy.  Your whole argument relies on everyone either living in a city or being able to fork over 15k for a used EV. Yea your talking about things that millions of people cant do.

Not really, if one is good at managing their finances nothing is impossible. Need a reliable car? Buy a cheapo phone instead of that fancy $1500 one, stop eating out that $2 coffee a day adds up invest in a $30 coffee maker and a $5 bag of your fav coffee (you'll save money in the first month). 

 

Yea I'm talking about something millions can't do, not because they genuinely can't but can't be bothered to take the hour or so needed initially to create a spreadsheet or even a piece of paper to figure out how to save money. Even some people who use food banks and food tickets could actually stop doing so, but there is no incentive to actually bother. So it really is a won't do more than can't, the only ones who can't are the ones on gov checks that barely pay the bills or the homeless, and the % of Americans that are those people are? 5%? Yea, everyone else is just lazy.

 

8 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

When EV get to the point where you can find used ones for the same price as cheap gas cars and everyone can afford one then gas cars will be gone. until then it wont happen. And again you know nothing about the way the US works if you think that they would just make a law that says poor people cant drive their gas cars. Will not happen any time soon.

 

The i3 is basically there, while not "$1000 cheap", for what you get one can't complain esp considering it's age as long as the limited range isn't an issue. Unless you are referring to a Model 3 or any other Tesla being depreciated down to that level then, you'll be long gone before that happens unless something bad happened to the car (like the batteries are 100% useless).

 

Your right about the law it won't likely happen, in fact ever. But thinking it can't happen is foolish nonetheless, can't and won't are 2 different things. Plus I doubt the poor people would actually care as much because they will adapt as per part of being poor (they'll ride a bike or buy a moped call a taxi once a week for groceries, ask a neighbor or pay them when they go), the ones what will care are the ones that love their trucks and suvs and could actually afford to go EV but refuse. However that "refuse" might just change when the EV F-150, cybertruck, Y etc all come out, as long as the range isn't a issue (shouldn't be).

 

Ultimately I think once more EVs come out you'll see a huge market shift with a bigger depreciation value in ICE vehicles 7 or so years after the initial dumping of EV models(when they hit hard on the used market). So around 2035 could be the flood and death of the use gas cars which no one would want to touch, or maybe it's the best time to buy one for use of the next 5-10 years. But like buying a HD-DVD player after discontinuation of discs it's a bad idea to do so. Only time will tell how fast or slow EVs will take over the planet, With Doofus in the White House he's basically extended ICE's shelf life by killing the MPG regulation put in place by Obama, much like how Ford killed the EV incentive to save corporations money and "not the people"...

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1 hour ago, Egg-Roll said:

You must know the US very little yourself, if the majority vote yes it happens. For how long it lasts that doesn't matter.

 

No it does not work like that. You really think that just because people vote for something that it happens? Again you clearly dont know anything about the US so I dont understand why you act like you do. If you think that just because more people vote for something that it happens then I have a bridge id like to sell you at one hell of a deal.

 

How many things have you voted for in the US? How many years have you been dealing with US politics both on the federal and local level?

 

1 hour ago, Egg-Roll said:

15+ minutes drive means in a crises where fuel becomes scarce (like a massive power outage, similar to 2003) you'll have to walk to said place or hope someone is able to help. Also depending on the type of highway if might not be illegal to actually walk it, for example while here in Ontario you can't walk on the 400 series you can walk on the highways that are 80km/h for the most part as long as you follow the rules of the road. 

 

Doctors can do in house calls, banking can be done online. As for the people who drive 45 minutes to work everyday a EV would actually save them money likely, a hybrid would definitely save them money. Not to mention I would expect them to be able to afford a new car every 5-7 years with that much driving as a 45 minute drive at 45mph is almost 17,000 miles a year.

A 15 minute drive is less the a gallon of gas for most people. If theres a gas shortage (which is very very rare to happen. We have had one in 16+ years ive been driving) You manage your gas better.

 

Its illegal to walk on the highway in the US. I dont understand why you bring up laws in Canada that have literally nothing to do with the US. The only time your allowed to walk on the highway is in cases where your car breaks down and legally you have to get off at the next exit.

 

Not alot of doctors do house calls. esp in rural areas.

 

Banking online. Please explain to me how my phone is going to deposit cash into my account? If I need something notarized how do i do that with my phone?

 

17k miles a year and you think the car is only going to last 5-7 years? So you think cars die at 119k miles? Also idk why youd say 45 mph. Thats a pretty low speed limit that I only see on side roads.

 

Yes in terms of cost per gallon a hybrid would be cheaper for them. But you fail to understand the upfront cost.  If the hybrid costs you 10k more then the used gas car.....thats years worth of gas. It would take years before you would break even.

1 hour ago, Egg-Roll said:

Fun fact, yes they can you'd be surprised what big dealers are willing to do to get a sale. While not sure on used cars I can't see a low interest being a issue, esp with the shitty value of the i3, the image below is for a $15000 i3 with 21,000 miles. I'm sure you could haggle the interest rate down in person to push the sale of the worst depreciation of any known car on the market.

image.png.6a533fc3589c54375fc1a80a8d35270e.png

 

Now depending on that persons situation they may or may not be able to justify the $300 ($310 with 1000 down) a month on a car for 5 years. However these cars should last easily 6+ years with practically no maintenance even tho BMW's are know for that. So can one who is willing to buy a $1000 car and potentially spend hundreds per year in repairs afford a $15k loan as such? Yes they should, however depending on the situation for every person like a bare bones min wage 25 hour worker college student that person might not be able to do so which is fine. However for the most part if you are willing to risk buying a $1000 car then yes you likely could afford a $15k car.

How many car loans have you gotten in the US? How many in house financing have you done?

Those calculators mean very little and are hardly accurate.

You arent haggling an interest rate with poor credit. I have no clue where you got that idea. Banks are the ones in power. when you have poor credit  you have 0 power when it comes to negotiating terms. Its take it or leave it. And thats if they offer you the loan. I know plenty of people who couldnt get that loan. Also you dont take into consideration the premium insurance you have to pay when financing a car. Your insurance can go from 35-50 bucks a month to 200-300 bucks a month. So in 3 months youve spent enough on payments and insurance to buy a perfectly running cheap used car.

 

Again your thought process behind cars is asinine. For some reason your under the impression that when someone buys a used car that all they are going to do is waste money on repairs. Just because you buy a used car doesnt mean your in a money pit. Theres no reason to assume that at all. My truck was bought for $750, its 27 years old, I got it with 170k on it and its at 193k right now with no issues outside of cosmetic issues. Outside of my wifes Subaru Ive never spent more then 2k on a car and they all lasted me years and to my knowledge are still going. My grandma still drive a 94 buick lasabre I gave $500 for back in 2007. No major issues. Plenty of people find good cheap used cars. Its not hard at all.

 

Id bet my life savings that my current daily driver will last just as long as any $10k car bought right now. Even if the engine and transmission needed to eventually be replaced the cost of the car plus the repair would still be thousands cheaper then the $10k car.

 

"However for the most part if you are willing to risk buying a $1000 car then yes you likely could afford a $15k car." How did you type that out and not realize how dumb you sounded? If someone can buy a $1000 car then they likely can afford a $15k (15 times the price) car? Because someone who has $1k def has another $14k they can spare right?

2 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

Not really, if one is good at managing their finances nothing is impossible. Need a reliable car? Buy a cheapo phone instead of that fancy $1500 one, stop eating out that $2 coffee a day adds up invest in a $30 coffee maker and a $5 bag of your fav coffee (you'll save money in the first month). 

 

Yea I'm talking about something millions can't do, not because they genuinely can't but can't be bothered to take the hour or so needed initially to create a spreadsheet or even a piece of paper to figure out how to save money. Even some people who use food banks and food tickets could actually stop doing so, but there is no incentive to actually bother. So it really is a won't do more than can't, the only ones who can't are the ones on gov checks that barely pay the bills or the homeless, and the % of Americans that are those people are? 5%? Yea, everyone else is just lazy.

 

So your assuming that because someone cant afford a $15k car its because they are spending money on high priced cell phones? That they are going to starbucks every single morning? You really dont see how dumb that statement is?

 

Everything i just quoted is pure 100% bs with basically 0 factual evidence to support it. You have no clue what everyones earnings and bills are. You know literally nothing about them yet you know what they can or cant do and what it takes. Your generalizing millions of people with no evidence behind it. How many people have you pulled from poverty mr financial advisor?

 

2 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

Your right about the law it won't likely happen, in fact ever. But thinking it can't happen is foolish nonetheless, can't and won't are 2 different things. Plus I doubt the poor people would actually care as much because they will adapt as per part of being poor (they'll ride a bike or buy a moped call a taxi once a week for groceries, ask a neighbor or pay them when they go), the ones what will care are the ones that love their trucks and suvs and could actually afford to go EV but refuse. However that "refuse" might just change when the EV F-150, cybertruck, Y etc all come out, as long as the range isn't a issue (shouldn't be).

It wont happen. It cant happen. The ACLU along with every single other activist group would be fighting it. You would have countless politicians fighting it, but for some dumb reason your under the impression that the government can literally do what it wants. Doesnt work like that here. Maybe it works like that up there, I dont know. But im also not going to act like I do know when clearly I dont (unlike you with Us politics).

 

Poor people wont care that they no longer have the ability to drive their car? That actually sounds correct to you? The US cant pass a voter id law because they say it will hamper poor people. Yet you think that the US is just going to make it to where poor people lose their cars and ability to get to work, get food, etc? No. You are 100% ignorant.

 

Bikes and Mopeds cant be legally driven on alot of roads in the US. Your not riding a moped/bike on I40 to get to work. But again you dont know anything about most alot of areas in the US and for some reason your under the impression that in all areas everything just a quick bike ride to wherever you need to go.

 

2 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

Ultimately I think once more EVs come out you'll see a huge market shift with a bigger depreciation value in ICE vehicles 7 or so years after the initial dumping of EV models(when they hit hard on the used market). So around 2035 could be the flood and death of the use gas cars which no one would want to touch, or maybe it's the best time to buy one for use of the next 5-10 years. But like buying a HD-DVD player after discontinuation of discs it's a bad idea to do so. Only time will tell how fast or slow EVs will take over the planet, With Doofus in the White House he's basically extended ICE's shelf life by killing the MPG regulation put in place by Obama, much like how Ford killed the EV incentive to save corporations money and "not the people"...

I said earlier that when EV get to the point where they are easily obtainable that gas cars would die out. Thats not going to be for decades though. And again just because EVs become more popular that doesnt mean gas cars just disappear into the ether.

 

MPG regulations literally have nothing to do with extending the life of gas cars. That literally makes zero sense. A car getting 35 mpg doesnt means its life is extended longer then a car that gets 25 mpg. A cars MPG means nothing when it comes to its life. My 96 Ram gets 12mpg. That doesnt mean its going to die quicker then a new Ram that gets 24mph.

 

Literally nothing you have said makes any sense. Your generalizing millions of people with literally 0 evidence to support them. Your speaking about politics you know nothing about. And your making claims that are literally not true at all.

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14 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

No it does not work like that. You really think that just because people vote for something that it happens? Again you clearly dont know anything about the US so I dont understand why you act like you do. If you think that just because more people vote for something that it happens then I have a bridge id like to sell you at one hell of a deal.

 

How many things have you voted for in the US? How many years have you been dealing with US politics both on the federal and local level?

 

I dumbed it down, so what.

 

17 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Its illegal to walk on the highway in the US. I dont understand why you bring up laws in Canada that have literally nothing to do with the US. The only time your allowed to walk on the highway is in cases where your car breaks down and legally you have to get off at the next exit.

 

Not alot of doctors do house calls. esp in rural areas.

 

Banking online. Please explain to me how my phone is going to deposit cash into my account? If I need something notarized how do i do that with my phone?

 

17k miles a year and you think the car is only going to last 5-7 years? So you think cars die at 119k miles? Also idk why youd say 45 mph. Thats a pretty low speed limit that I only see on side roads.

 

Yes in terms of cost per gallon a hybrid would be cheaper for them. But you fail to understand the upfront cost.  If the hybrid costs you 10k more then the used gas car.....thats years worth of gas. It would take years before you would break even.

The term Highway at least in canada has 2 definitions, one where pedestrians are allowed and ones that they are not, it's perfectly possible to think the USA (maybe not your state, or it does but you don't know about it) has similar laws. When was the last time you read your road laws in full? I bet never.

 

I would expect rural doctors to do house calls more than city ones, for obvious reasons, but that depends on region and doctor. In worst case a doctor could go outside of their practice zone in certain cases.

 

Cash and Notarization are one of the few things that needs a actual location, for cash a ATM would suffice, fee free or not. For notary well, that depends on what you need done. However unless you are on your death bed and want to change something in your will last minute because @Egg-Roll is being an ass and you wanted to remove them from your will, well I'm sure a local lawyer would be more than happy to do a house call.

 

It's a BMW... Don't trust BMW, assuming the cells are as good as Teslas, the cells should outlast the cars usefulness. 45mph is a number I pulled out of my ass as a average for a commuter (think the avg mpg adverts) knowing highway speeds are around 60/65 and city is around 30/35.

 

I think one can pick up a hybrid for about 5,000 now, maybe not the best hybrid but a hybrid still. Also the fuel savings depends on where one drives, I know someone with a plugin that barely uses the gas function, they bought it new and not used however.

 

31 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

So your assuming that because someone cant afford a $15k car its because they are spending money on high priced cell phones? That they are going to starbucks every single morning? You really dont see how dumb that statement is?

 

Everything i just quoted is pure 100% bs with basically 0 factual evidence to support it. You have no clue what everyones earnings and bills are. You know literally nothing about them yet you know what they can or cant do and what it takes. Your generalizing millions of people with no evidence behind it. How many people have you pulled from poverty mr financial advisor?

You missed my point, my point is if one wanted they could find things they can improve on.

 

No factual evidence? Maybe maybe not. Here is the issue with the general person, they are gullible, this means if one person says it's good they are more willing to try, it's why I'm confident that everyone rich or poor are making some sort of bad purchase decisions. Maybe don't buy that new phone maybe don't buy that burger from the shop that you just passed, maybe don't use the drive threw when the line is more than 2 cars long. Everything helps, its those little things that matter. People are stupid when they see a mass movement, this is because people are sociable asses that see something and copy it.

 

Also please don't defame me and call me a "Financial Advisor", those people are scam artists out to make money off of you, they don't care about you your savings or nothing. I have read a few articles (I think from the T star) that have given some of the most idiotic advise I've ever seen. The best way of finding ones faults are still writing down your spending figuring out what you can live with out, you'd be surprised. It shouldn't take a Financial Advisor to tell you that much, but apparently it does.

 

43 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

It wont happen. It cant happen. The ACLU along with every single other activist group would be fighting it. You would have countless politicians fighting it, but for some dumb reason your under the impression that the government can literally do what it wants. Doesnt work like that here. Maybe it works like that up there, I dont know. But im also not going to act like I do know when clearly I dont (unlike you with Us politics).

 

Poor people wont care that they no longer have the ability to drive their car? That actually sounds correct to you? The US cant pass a voter id law because they say it will hamper poor people. Yet you think that the US is just going to make it to where poor people lose their cars and ability to get to work, get food, etc? No. You are 100% ignorant.

 

Bikes and Mopeds cant be legally driven on alot of roads in the US. Your not riding a moped/bike on I40 to get to work. But again you dont know anything about most alot of areas in the US and for some reason your under the impression that in all areas everything just a quick bike ride to wherever you need to go.

Activists can't do much, if the bill passes it passes, deal with it. If the backlash becomes too great then sure they could revoke it, but in this case they wouldn't because the whole world would be frowning at the country, you know all 6.5 billion others.

 

Correct, no voter id is completly different than cars, voting is a right, driving is not. You are literally comparing a right to a privilege, now who's ignorant? Poor people who can't justify anything but a beater are the ones you don't want on the road, they wouldn't be able to afford payouts if they get into accidents and if they even have insurance at all. Those who go starving w/o a car are clearly living above their means, cruel words? Maybe, but that is realistic, if you can't afford where you are find somewhere cheaper. If you are scrapping the barrel well shit not much lower one can go. This means if you are stuck as a barista at a coffee shop maybe move to a place that rent is 33% of your income and a walk away instead of 80% of your income with car costs. Be smarter not a foolish sheep that has to follow stupid standards set out by those who are making more money than you.

 

i40 is the equivalent to the 400 series, it's the lower speed roads you can use them, and unless you live on a farm that directly attaches itself to the highway there should be plenty of those. Maybe you don't know them because you only take one route.

 

52 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

said earlier that when EV get to the point where they are easily obtainable that gas cars would die out. Thats not going to be for decades though. And again just because EVs become more popular that doesnt mean gas cars just disappear into the ether.

 

MPG regulations literally have nothing to do with extending the life of gas cars. That literally makes zero sense. A car getting 35 mpg doesnt means its life is extended longer then a car that gets 25 mpg. A cars MPG means nothing when it comes to its life. My 96 Ram gets 12mpg. That doesnt mean its going to die quicker then a new Ram that gets 24mph.

 

Literally nothing you have said makes any sense. Your generalizing millions of people with literally 0 evidence to support them. Your speaking about politics you know nothing about. And your making claims that are literally not true at all.

You keep saying decades yet the second the EU ban hits things will change fast, just wait and see.

 

Actually it does, Obama set a really high standard that would have pushed most companies to go all hybrid in all models (to my understanding) or engineer a more efficient engine at least to meet the requirements. Doing so would have been costly, and would have pushed them more towards EV's since those are going to be the future so why invest in a now short term tech? I wasn't referring to current production models, but apparently you think MPG regulations automatically apply to all vehicles, they don't. The regulations are to push for more efficient vehicles for a future date, in some cases it's a average in others it's a maximum for a class of vehicle. These regulations would have pushed manufactures to have invested heaver into the EV future than they currently have to with Trump in office.

 

Your last statement is funny. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it is wrong, if evidence is not given (this isn't a University paper requiring to reference every little bit of work) doesn't mean it's wrong or incorrect. Maybe some of my claim are wrong however all you have done is nay say and left it at that. I find it really hard to believe you live in a area that one would need to use a highway to do something as simple as shop for groceries, a doctor or even bank, I've never seen such a setup nor have I ever heard of one till you started whining about it. You could live in a area that requires a stupidly long walk to do some of them without public transit but that's it.

 

Even a small town like Tottenham (actually not a town but part of New Tecumseth which most live near Honda) in Ontario has 2 grocery stores several doctors and 2/4 major banks, all within reasonable walking distance, tho probably not wanting to walk it in the winter months. Maybe you should rediscover where you live or move before whining about it.

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