Tesla returns yoinked self driving feature to second hand model S

[RonnieOP]

9 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

Taxed on water!?!?!?!? We pay a service charge for it but zero tax.

Yeah it was a crazy dumb idea a local politician had years ago and it got shot down really fast.

 

Idk why people think that the government can just do whatever it wants. Its not as easy as them saying "we are doing this starting now". 

[jagdtigger]

49 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Again..electricity is already taxed. So not sure what you are getting at here.

Read my post a few times again, its in there. What you pay currently is a general tax that gets on top of everything. What they will impose on top of that for electricity used for EV charging  is the same thing you pay when you are buying fuel....

 

51 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

They already DO tax electricity,

Read above.

 

51 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

Just because I own an EV doesn't mean it gets used or charged,

Then you wont have issues with an extra meter and the fixed charger. Either way they will know if you use it when you go to the obligatory periodic inspection. At which point you either prove where and when you charged it if not you house else you get a hefty fine.

 

 

51 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

Don't pay fuel duty on wagons or farm vehicles here either. Don't even need to pay vehicle taxes on quad bikes and tractors if you own fields on opposite sides of a road (with limited usage).

Thats more of an exception than the norm, most places will tax fuel no matter what you are going to use it.

 

Deny it all you want but this is pretty much what will happen when they finally ban IC vehicles.

[RonnieOP]

20 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Read my post a few times again, its in there. What you pay currently is a general tax that gets on top of everything. What they will impose on top of that for electricity used for EV charging  is the same thing you pay when you are buying fuel....

 

Read above.

 

Then you wont have issues with an extra meter and the fixed charger. Either way they will know if you use it when you go to the obligatory periodic inspection. At which point you either prove where and when you charged it if not you house else you get a hefty fine.

 

 

Thats more of an exception than the norm, most places will tax fuel no matter what you are going to use it.

 

Deny it all you want but this is pretty much what will happen when they finally ban IC vehicles.

Its not a general tax that goes on top of everything....its a tax for the electricity used. Why are you arguing about a system youve never been a part of? Its like me telling you what your country taxes you on when i have no clue what country you are in nor the tax code.

 

You literally have 0 proof of anything and you act like your speaking the truth.

 

Why dont they tax you on the electricity you use when you have solar panels?

 

Why dont the tax you when you have an off the grid home?

 

Why dont they tax you when you use a well? 

 

Why does the government pay you money when you switch to solar? They arent making money off you?

 

"Thats more of an exception than the norm, most places will tax fuel no matter what you are going to use it." 

 

Thats not true in the US. In alot of areas theres tax exempts for those kind of things.

 

Again this is literally nothing more then tin foil hat conspiracy theories. You havent even tried to provide any sort of proof.

 

Do you really think the US government would be able to pull this off with no blowback? You think they just pass a new tax law when they feel like it? 

 

This would have to be done on the local level. Not the federal. And its not like most areas are going to have the funds to do this at all nor have the manpower to do it.

 

Im 30 and in my lifetime IC engines will not be banned. Theres literally no chance of that happening. They would be literally be killing hundreds of thousands of poor people. 

 

Please post any sort of factual evidence other then "they are going to do it because they want that oil money back".

 

Im sorry but using that as proof is just stupid.  And im really confused as to why you think you know what another countries government will do when you clearly dont know how that countries government works. 

 

 

 

[Curious Pineapple]

Electricity and gas here has seperate tax rates, not general sales tax... Here a tax can't be taxed. No inspection is needed if it's not used on the public roads either. Not sure what dictatorship you live in but we never embraced the gestapo so no, I won't have to prove where I didn't charge a vehicle that doesn't touch the public highway.

 

And yes I would have issues with paying for the energy draw of a charger that I never use.

[Curious Pineapple]

Also why would goverments be pouring money into ITER and fusion research if they didn't want to loose all the tax money from burning stuff? Once fusion becomes viable it's going to be cheap, really cheap. It's not like it's some secret that can't be done by anyone else either. Smashing hydrogen into helium isn't hard, you can do it yourself cheap in a kitchen.

 

There will be more than enough electricity being used to make up for fuel taxation when everything ends up electric.

[spartaman64]

5 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

Also why would goverments be pouring money into ITER and fusion research if they didn't want to loose all the tax money from burning stuff? Once fusion becomes viable it's going to be cheap, really cheap. It's not like it's some secret that can't be done by anyone else either. Smashing hydrogen into helium isn't hard, you can do it yourself cheap in a kitchen.

 

There will be more than enough electricity being used to make up for fuel taxation when everything ends up electric.

i dont think its that simple. self sustaining nuclear fusion reactors are always just 50 years away  

[Curious Pineapple]

1 minute ago, spartaman64 said:

i dont think its that simple. self sustaining nuclear fusion reactors are always just 50 years away  

About 5 years now. The problem has always been scale, It takes a lot of energy to maintain a fusion reaction but keeping the plasma in the right place, at the right temperature is a fine balance of magnetic fields. It's like trying to heat a bolt to a specific temperature with a 12KW heater. It's going to overshoot, undershoot, overshoot, undershoot, you get the idea. As you increase the mass of the object you are heating, the same energy input effects a smaller temperature change until you reach a point where you can keep the workpiece at a constant 700 degrees even if the ambient changes rapidly.

 

Same with a fusion reactor, they just have to be built really big so that a multi-megawatt magnetic field can make quite precise changes to the plasma stream.

[dalekphalm]

5 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

You seem to forgot that right now there is no tax on electricity, but in the future this will change and low-and behold you will spend right around the same amount of money on charging...

Compared to gasoline? No - not even close.

 

The vast majority (outside of places like EU with higher gas taxes - and even then, I still doubt it) of the cost of gasline is not tax.

 

For example, in Ontario, gas is around $1 per litre right now - which is fairly cheap. Out of that $1, $0.291 is tax (plus 13% HST on the whole thing).

 

That $0.291 is fixed though - so if the price of gas spikes to $1.20/L, only the HST increases as a percentage.

 

So that means 2/3rds of the price is from the gasoline cost itself (mining, refining, transportation, profit margins, etc).

 

Electricity is a lot less expensive - but even if we add back in the taxes that were part of the gasoline tax, the cost to charge would go up around $0.30/L electric equivalent at most.

 

Now, what's more likely is for the government to simply introduce an EV registration renewal tax to compensate for the gasoline tax. You'd pay it yearly when you renew your license plates - it could be a flat fee, or it could be based on KM driven. Likely a flat fee would make more sense - it would be more reliable to predict income, and it would be easier for owners to swallow.

 

Either way, even if that was included, it would still be a lot cheaper to charge an EV than to buy gasoline.

[spartaman64]

2 hours ago, Curious Pineapple said:

About 5 years now. The problem has always been scale, It takes a lot of energy to maintain a fusion reaction but keeping the plasma in the right place, at the right temperature is a fine balance of magnetic fields. It's like trying to heat a bolt to a specific temperature with a 12KW heater. It's going to overshoot, undershoot, overshoot, undershoot, you get the idea. As you increase the mass of the object you are heating, the same energy input effects a smaller temperature change until you reach a point where you can keep the workpiece at a constant 700 degrees even if the ambient changes rapidly.

 

Same with a fusion reactor, they just have to be built really big so that a multi-megawatt magnetic field can make quite precise changes to the plasma stream.

if fusion is coming in 5 years we would know already

[RonnieOP]

41 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Compared to gasoline? No - not even close.

 

The vast majority (outside of places like EU with higher gas taxes - and even then, I still doubt it) of the cost of gasline is not tax.

 

For example, in Ontario, gas is around $1 per litre right now - which is fairly cheap. Out of that $1, $0.291 is tax (plus 13% HST on the whole thing).

 

That $0.291 is fixed though - so if the price of gas spikes to $1.20/L, only the HST increases as a percentage.

 

So that means 2/3rds of the price is from the gasoline cost itself (mining, refining, transportation, profit margins, etc).

 

Electricity is a lot less expensive - but even if we add back in the taxes that were part of the gasoline tax, the cost to charge would go up around $0.30/L electric equivalent at most.

 

Now, what's more likely is for the government to simply introduce an EV registration renewal tax to compensate for the gasoline tax. You'd pay it yearly when you renew your license plates - it could be a flat fee, or it could be based on KM driven. Likely a flat fee would make more sense - it would be more reliable to predict income, and it would be easier for owners to swallow.

 

Either way, even if that was included, it would still be a lot cheaper to charge an EV than to buy gasoline.

They already have those in 21 states. In my state its $130.

 

They already tried to raise it before and got shot down.

 

But a registration fee is a lot different then this weird "tax on charging electric vehicles" hes talking about. The yearly registration fees goes towards your states DOT for highway repairs and what not.

 

 

[Commodus]

I find it a bit odd that we're arguing about EV taxes and such when we know where the automotive industry is going.  Gas-powered cars will, thankfully, die almost completely; the future will be dominated by EVs and maybe hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.  We should be asking ourselves more how we'll adjust to that future rather than pretending there might be a change of heart down the line.

[Curufinwe_wins]

8 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Hmm. Not an issue where I live. They’re available pretty much anywhere over here (though at worst you might need to drive to a nearby city if you live in a smaller town). 

Yes, well midwest gets screwed on a lot of things. Hahaha

[yolosnail]

14 hours ago, Monkey Dust said:

Also, OTA updates, what happens when the car is no longer supported by the manufacturer?

Then it'll stay on the last update available. ICE cars generally don't receive software updates after they're manufactured and it has never been a problem, so why would not receiving any updates for an EV be a problem?

[Commodus]

Just now, yolosnail said:

Then it'll stay on the last update available. ICE cars generally don't receive software updates after they're manufactured and it has never been a problem, so why would not receiving any updates for an EV be a problem?

Because EVs are frequently connected cars that depend on those services... and of course, there's more software involved in controlling the car.

[Curufinwe_wins]

2 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

 Either way, even if that was included, it would still be a lot cheaper to charge an EV than to buy gasoline.

While a lot of the rest of the statement is true...

 

This one is not in much (it definitely is true in a decent chunk though) of the US, unfortunately. Not compared to midsized sedans hybrids or small car (even small hybrid crossovers) that get 40-50 MPG.

 

Gas is something like 50 cents a liter here, and electricity (for me) is around 20 cents a kWh. 

 

Say 40 MPG (I've averaged 45 in 40k miles on my fusion hybrid) for 2.20 a gallon. That's 5.5 cents a mile in gas. 

 

Now say 120 MPGe (per 33.4 kWh) tesla model 3 at 20 cents per kWh. That comes out at 5.57 cents a mile in electricity. And that is being very generous in electric efficiency.

 

That's also assuming you aren't using a privately owned business charger that you pay 2-8x the going rate for electricity on.

 

 

Point being for a lot of Americans, it isn't even cheaper to run the most efficient electric car on the market and compare it to vehicles that can be bought for literally 1/4th the price (I paid 14500 for my CPO 2018 fusion hybrid)....

 

 

Of course, electric cars are WAY MORE FUN and WAY FASTER than those efficiency oriented cars I compared it to, and I won't buy another gas car ever, personally. But it is unfortunately simply not true that they are automatically cheaper.

[yolosnail]

Just now, Commodus said:

Because EVs are frequently connected cars that depend on those services... and of course, there's more software involved in controlling the car.

But each updated that comes out is (in theory) stable enough to run forever, so if that is the last one it receives it shouldn't be an issue in that regard.

As for them being 'connected', as far as I know, the connected features are only for convenience rather than being essential (ie. pre-heating the car, sounding the horn, unlocking the car remotely etc.), so to me anyway it's not a great deal if in 10 years time those features are dropped. I doubt that would be the case anyway as I'd imagine they'd just not roll out new features rather than remove existing ones.

Most charging infrastructure (Tesla Supercharger excluded) doesn't rely on the car being connected, rather they use their own network to control it so if a car were to go 'offline' it would still be able to access most of the charging networks

[RonnieOP]

24 minutes ago, Commodus said:

I find it a bit odd that we're arguing about EV taxes and such when we know where the automotive industry is going.  Gas-powered cars will, thankfully, die almost completely; the future will be dominated by EVs and maybe hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.  We should be asking ourselves more how we'll adjust to that future rather than pretending there might be a change of heart down the line.

Its going to be decades and decades before gas powered cars die off. I doubt It will even be in any of our life times tbh.

[Egg-Roll]

4 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

Why does the government pay you money when you switch to solar?

Ever thought it would be cheaper to pay people to get off the grid as much as possible over investing in it to keep it fully operational? Remember if they can kick 10,000 people off the grid esp during peak time that's a hell a lot of maintenance free production. Also if your local area allows power to the grid they are technically paying you as well threw that via a cheaper bill, however while you get paid based on what ever rate (even if equal to what they charge) they are still saving money because of the trade off in maintenance costs, plus you'll likely never see a check.

 

12 minutes ago, Commodus said:

Because EVs are frequently connected cars that depend on those services... and of course, there's more software involved in controlling the car.

Both true and both are actually not required to run a EV. EV converters proved this years ago, and even still today. EV's are just a fancy tech on wheels.

 

29 minutes ago, Commodus said:

hydrogen fuel cell vehicles

Are dead, yes some are being made but GM has produced far more EVs than HFVs in total. 

[Egg-Roll]

30 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Its going to be decades and decades before gas powered cars die off. I doubt It will even be in any of our life times tbh.

Far from true unless you plan on dying in 20 years.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/denmark-eu-ban-gas-diesel-cars/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles

 

Then you have little Norway, sweet sweet little Norway smearing the lovely smelly stuff all over naysayers.

 

Once you look at this you can see a good portion of cars will have to be EV based by 2030 or have EV counterparts. The only reason why the USA hasn't gone full force on a gas ban is because of 2 reasons. One they have a idiot in the white house and two the main companies in the USA refuse to move away from gas. It's not just random that the big EU companies are to moving all EV, they are doing it to cover their ass.

 

Currently how I see it until the big 3 get their heads out of their asses they will be left behind. While Tesla can't fulfill the EV market in total by not taking action asap they are lingering in the possibility of losing out. They have already lost out in terms of charging availability since Teslas can use any unit with an adapter.

[RonnieOP]

53 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

Far from true unless you plan on dying in 20 years.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/denmark-eu-ban-gas-diesel-cars/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles

 

Then you have little Norway, sweet sweet little Norway smearing the lovely smelly stuff all over naysayers.

 

Once you look at this you can see a good portion of cars will have to be EV based by 2030 or have EV counterparts. The only reason why the USA hasn't gone full force on a gas ban is because of 2 reasons. One they have a idiot in the white house and two the main companies in the USA refuse to move away from gas. It's not just random that the big EU companies are to moving all EV, they are doing it to cover their ass.

 

Currently how I see it until the big 3 get their heads out of their asses they will be left behind. While Tesla can't fulfill the EV market in total by not taking action asap they are lingering in the possibility of losing out. They have already lost out in terms of charging availability since Teslas can use any unit with an adapter.

im talking about all IC cars being banned worldwide. Also that article is talking about the making of gas cars. not them being driven. You could ban the sales of gas cars tomorrow and it would still be decades before all the gas cars died off.

 

Its not going to happen in the US for a long long time.

 

Also banning gas cars has nothing to do with whoever is in the white house. Nor does it have to do with ford/gm/etc. They are all working on EV anyway.

 

Its because you would be killing millions of people.

What are these people going to do when their car is banned? You think everyone has 40k for a new car? Even if cheaper cars come out that are 20k you think everyone is going to afford that? No. So youd have millions of people who cant afford an EV not being able to go to work, pay their rent, pay for food or even go get food, etc.

 

"Ever thought it would be cheaper to pay people to get off the grid as much as possible over investing in it to keep it fully operational? Remember if they can kick 10,000 people off the grid esp during peak time that's a hell a lot of maintenance free production. Also if your local area allows power to the grid they are technically paying you as well threw that via a cheaper bill, however while you get paid based on what ever rate (even if equal to what they charge) they are still saving money because of the trade off in maintenance costs, plus you'll likely never see a check. "

 

Context matters. I said that because i was replying to a person who was saying once EV cars are the standard that our government would start charging an additional tax on the electricity thats specifically used to charge them to make up for the money they wont be getting from oil.

[Egg-Roll]

10 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

im talking about all IC cars being banned worldwide. Also that article is talking about the making of gas cars. not them being driven. You could ban the sales of gas cars tomorrow and it would still be decades before all the gas cars died off.

Banning sales, not making. If companies want to make cars for a place that they can't sell nothing is stopping them. Also yes as shown in Norway it will take time however once sales have stopped the gas market will start to dwindle. currently there is not much value in cars over 5 years once banned value will be lost after 10 years, at 10 years you either have a reliable car that is worth keeping or it should end up in the scrapyard.

 

13 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Its not going to happen in the US for a long long time.

 

Also incorrect, LA has set a strict timeline and with lessons learned from the whole EV1 event means they are unlikely to push it. It's called adapt or be left behind. Once they succeed and Daffy is out you should see changes, and fast ones.

 

16 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Also banning gas cars has nothing to do with whoever is in the white house. Nor does it have to do with ford/gm/etc. They are all working on EV anyway.

 

It has everything to do with who is in power. You think Texas would give up their gas guzzlers unless forced? There is a reason why Musk asked if he should build a gigafactory there and it isn't for economic point of view 

 

Also Ford is only working on a Pony SUV and a F-150, at least publicly anyways... Ford also discontinued the Focus EV due to poor sales (you couldn't grab on in Ontario last I checked only in Quebec), the issue with the big players is they claim 40 (ford) and 20 (gm) models by 22/23 (respectively), however are they counting cheap crappy range units that offer 150 or less miles? (which is more than enough for the average users daily commute) Or are they including tiered models like the extended crew cab as a model? Working on one model and calling it 5 models based on the tier is complete marketing bs. So as far as I'm concerned Tesla is still working on more EVs (Cyber Semi Y) than anyone else till proven otherwise. Not to mention only reason why they are working on them is because of Tesla and the gas bans going on.

 

28 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Its because you would be killing millions of people.

What are these people going to do when their car is banned? You think everyone has 40k for a new car? Even if cheaper cars come out that are 20k you think everyone is going to afford that? No. So youd have millions of people who cant afford an EV not being able to go to work, pay their rent, pay for food or even go get food, etc.

Ah yes the stupidity of owning a car where more than likely public transit is an option... If this becomes the case those people can go cry somewhere else. Simply put if you can't afford a new car (esp a maintenance free one, basically) you can't afford to fix your old one likely, this means you likely can't pay for proper eating either. Reality is unless you live in the country and drive into the city for some stupid reason chances are there is a grocery store within 30 minutes of walking at most 1 hour each way, where I live I have 1 Metro and 1 walmart (not a superstore) within 20 minutes, there are some places locally you'd have to walk 30 minutes for one but chances are a bus service runs frequently enough to use it instead of walking, and for 6 months of the year the farmers market is within 20 minutes of walking.

 

Canada recently got a new food guide, and guess what? People complained about it being unaffordable...  Well guess what, it is if you where smart, just like owning a car. Ask yourself this, can you afford to buy or lease another car tomorrow if the current one dies?(assuming fully paid off, or out of warranty) If the answer is no, then why are you driving?

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/04/10/new-canada-food-guide-unaffordable-to-many-new-poll-finds/

I remember reading a article stating people are prioritizing gas for their cars over food, which is wrong on many levels. The worst part of the chart is the 34% of the 100K+ section, my question is HOW, without them looking like a bunch of idiots 

 

47 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Context matters. I said that because i was replying to a person who was saying once EV cars are the standard that our government would start charging an additional tax on the electricity thats specifically used to charge them to make up for the money they wont be getting from oil.

Ontario even talked about it too, not sure what they are going to do about it truth be told. One thing could be a renewal fee with plates or add a tax to public charging stations similar to gas stations. They could also charge a tax after a threshold is met at a home, but that is a hard thing to figure out because if they use a average and everyone starts charging that average is going to change which means less tax for them in the future, unless the threshold is 2x hire than current average than I won't complain to that because if you exceed 2x the average you either are growing pot, have a oversize home, or in the case of this forum... Running 20 high profile gaming PCs 24/7 operating them for lan parties or crypto.

[RonnieOP]

2 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

Banning sales, not making. If companies want to make cars for a place that they can't sell nothing is stopping them. Also yes as shown in Norway it will take time however once sales have stopped the gas market will start to dwindle. currently there is not much value in cars over 5 years once banned value will be lost after 10 years, at 10 years you either have a reliable car that is worth keeping or it should end up in the scrapyard.

 

Also incorrect, LA has set a strict timeline and with lessons learned from the whole EV1 event means they are unlikely to push it. It's called adapt or be left behind. Once they succeed and Daffy is out you should see changes, and fast ones.

They could ban the sale of gas cars tomorrow and it would still be decades before they were gone. I dont know why you think just banning selling new cars would make them obsolete. My truck in the driveway is 27 years old. It still has years left in it. Are you under the impression that cars die after a few years only? Shit my mechanics truck is from 1965 and id be willing to bet he will keep that truck alive longer then any tesla bought this year.

 

Oh and just because something is talked about now or planned doesnt mean its going to happen. You think California has never pushed back plans before?

 

7 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

Ah yes the stupidity of owning a car where more than likely public transit is an option... If this becomes the case those people can go cry somewhere else. Simply put if you can't afford a new car (esp a maintenance free one, basically) you can't afford to fix your old one likely, this means you likely can't pay for proper eating either. Reality is unless you live in the country and drive into the city for some stupid reason chances are there is a grocery store within 30 minutes of walking at most 1 hour each way, where I live I have 1 Metro and 1 walmart (not a superstore) within 20 minutes, there are some places locally you'd have to walk 30 minutes for one but chances are a bus service runs frequently enough to use it instead of walking, and for 6 months of the year the farmers market is within 20 minutes of walking.

 

Canada recently got a new food guide, and guess what? People complained about it being unaffordable...  Well guess what, it is if you where smart, just like owning a car. Ask yourself this, can you afford to buy or lease another car tomorrow if the current one dies?(assuming fully paid off, or out of warranty) If the answer is no, then why are you driving?

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2019/04/10/new-canada-food-guide-unaffordable-to-many-new-poll-finds/

I remember reading a article stating people are prioritizing gas for their cars over food, which is wrong on many levels. The worst part of the chart is the 34% of the 100K+ section, my question is HOW, without them looking like a bunch of idiots 

 

 

Literally all of that is uneducated, asinine, and just false.

 

Again. Public transport is not an option for hundreds of thousands of people. I have no clue why you are under the impression where everyone lives in a city and the local store is a quick jog down the road. Its incredibly ignorant of you to think its "stupid" to live in the country and just drive to the city. But i guess in your head 330 million people can all live in a city. 

 

Used cars are cheap. Esp in rural areas. Its not hard to find a running car in the $1k thatll last you a long time. Even when you factor in the cost of a used car or cost to repair it. its a fraction of the cost. 40k for a tesla. As shown in this very thread thats not reasonably obtainable for alot of people. So whats your answer? Fuck em, let em starve to death? So if someone cant afford a 40k car they could never afford a $1k car or a $500 repair right? Or in your mind is every car repair going to cost 20k?

 

And who said anything about eating healthy? I never talked about their diet. I said they wouldnt be able to get food period. Healthy or not.

 

Your whole argument is basically "if they are too poor to afford a EV they arent worth worrying about" Your whole argument is asinine.

 

 

[Monkey Dust]

6 hours ago, yolosnail said:

Then it'll stay on the last update available. ICE cars generally don't receive software updates after they're manufactured and it has never been a problem, so why would not receiving any updates for an EV be a problem?

Because currently if some wants maliciously update your car, they have to break in, so they can plug something into your car. If your car is capable of OTA updates, but is no longer receiving security updates outside its support period, it still has the hardware to be updated without a bad actor needing physical access to the car's interior. Combined with semiautonomous features this looks very risky.      

[ARikozuM]

Just for reference, even without OTA updates and such, there have been ICEs that use electronics hacked to gain control of brakes, gas, and steering.

[jagdtigger]

8 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Either way, even if that was included, it would still be a lot cheaper to charge an EV than to buy gasoline.

That all depends on how they are going to apply the tax(maybe it will be /kW, or it could be even /W if they are that greedy), and its value isnt set in stone either so they can raise it at will. And most likely even the electricity itself will be more expensive because power companies need the extra funds to build more power plants(at this point only nuclear reactors have the necessary energy density to handle all the EV's, and it isnt cheap to build them). So i wouldnt make any hasty statements that it is going to be cheaper.

Edited February 16, 2020 by jagdtigger