Tesla returns yoinked self driving feature to second hand model S

[jagdtigger]

27 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Most people I know don't have that kind of monetary options.

Most of the world i would wager. Here in Hungary ppl can hardly afford anything newer than 10 year old cars.... (mine is 12 year old for instance)

[SeriousDad69]

This makes me feel less bad about driving shit boxes that were made in the 20th century lmao, at least they cant remote update(downgrade?) the car against my will and I can fix them myself.

I'd assume(or hope lol) that it's impossible to do something like remotely turn the brakes off, but these billion dollar tech and automobile corporations are usually given far too much credit when it comes to intelligence. I'm waiting for someone to hack Tesla and push out an update that bricks the entire fleet lol

[Monkey Dust]

7 hours ago, Waffles13 said:

It's also worth noting that at least in theory, electric cars should require much less maintenance over the life of the car. Granted Tesla QC has been pretty lackluster and we've still got a lot of early teething problems, but a machine that doesn't contain numerous fluids, belts and hundreds of thousands of small explosions is generally going to wear down a lot slower than one that does.

 

If you're buying new it's not going to matter much either way, but both the cost of repairs and the potential time lost from a car breaking down will level the price difference out even more over time. Maybe not enough to be 100% equal, but a lot of people seem to think that upfront cost and gas are the only money that ever needs to be considered for the average car. 

I'll admit EVs don't need the expensive belt changes, but with most ICE cars it's not the engine that serves up the big bills. It's the suspension (I appreciate in the world of cars English English and American English diverge a lot, so apologies in advance to only making sense to other Brits), not the springs and dampers, but the various arms, links and bushings. The A/C needs servicing, wheel bearings don't last forever, wiper motors, window motors, seat motors. EV will be lower maintenance than ICE, but I doubt it's going to be the maintenance free utopia some think it is. 

 

Also, OTA updates, what happens when the car is no longer supported by the manufacturer? Will otherwise working cars have to be scrapped as the known, unpatched, security holes mount up? It could be unplugged I guess, but how will it affect self-driving if we reach the point where cars are communicating with each other?

 

And since we are all nominating the EV we'd buy if bank balance allowed, I'd go Jag I-Pace. Wasn't sure about the styling at first, I'd only seen black, white and silver ones. Then I saw a bright red one on 22" part carbon fibre wheels, that one looked proper. I'm not sure about the Taycan's styling. I've only seen pics and vids, so I'll reserve judgement for when I see one in the metal. 

 

 

[RejZoR]

Buy cars with a chain instead of belt. These basically survive the car where regular belts need to be replaced very often unless you wanna risk a very expensive repair when engine munches on valves when belt says goodbye... Chains very rarely break and they usually just get loud with time and use, but hardly ever catastrophically fail.

[jagdtigger]

3 hours ago, SeriousDad69 said:

I'd assume(or hope lol) that it's impossible to do something like remotely turn the brakes off,

Since the autopilot has access to many thing its not about if it can be done, but how hard it is and when it will happen.

[RonnieOP]

8 hours ago, RejZoR said:

That's the point I'm trying to make. It doesn't matter if they require less maintenance or "refueling" them is cheaper. For the price of just an electric car alone I can get a 15k € hatchback (which are not really crap and they move you around in good comfort) with EVERYTHING included for the other 15k €. It doesn't matter if it requires maintenance, it's already calculated in. And insurance. And ALL the fuel (for my needs anyways) for next 10 years of car use. Electric cars with current prices are for people who can just drop 30-35k on a car and not even give a shit. Most people I know don't have that kind of monetary options. Not even really well situated ones who drive cars that cost this much. They still think about things and not just buy one coz they can.

I mean it depends on the person and their needs.

 

I spend over 3k in gas a year. With a Tesla that would go down to below 1k. Oil changes cost roughly $35 multiple times a year. That would all go away with a Tesla. Brakes on a Tesla last much longer (ive seen reports of people saying the adhesive pads aged out before the pads actually needed to be replaced and that takes like 4 years) so theres another repair you wont have to pay as much. And then in my area you have tax incentives as well. Last i checked that was about $7k right there.

 

(i say tesla but really the numbers should work with any all electric car)

 

30-35k for a new car (before tax incentives) really isnt that much. My wifes subaru was around $26k. And that thing costs alot to own and drive and will not last as long as a tesla.

 

Im not going to act like everyone can afford a 30k car. obv theres plenty who cant. But they are many who can and many more who can easily with financing. And just because some people cant afford it doesnt mean its over priced. Most people cant drop 200k on a house. but that doesnt mean that house is overpriced because you can find a double wide for 80k. That logic makes no sense.

 

Teslas issues have nothing to with its pricing. You cant find another new car for its price with the same features. Hell you could pay much more for a brand new car that has less features. Now what those features mean to someone will obv be up to the person buying a car.

[Curious Pineapple]

4 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Buy cars with a chain instead of belt. These basically survive the car where regular belts need to be replaced very often unless you wanna risk a very expensive repair when engine munches on valves when belt says goodbye... Chains very rarely break and they usually just get loud with time and use, but hardly ever catastrophically fail.

Very often? The usual interval for a modern timing belt is near enough 100,000 miles, high performance engines and diesels being potentially lower.

[dalekphalm]

14 hours ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

If only the Kona and Niro were available nationwide... that would be a dream (well not for me, but I have numerous friends who straightup tried to have one shipped and dealers wouldnt do it)

Hmm. Not an issue where I live. They’re available pretty much anywhere over here (though at worst you might need to drive to a nearby city if you live in a smaller town). 

[jagdtigger]

2 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

With a Tesla that would go down to below 1k.

You seem to forgot that right now there is no tax on electricity, but in the future this will change and low-and behold you will spend right around the same amount of money on charging...

[greenmax]

On 2/14/2020 at 9:10 AM, spartaman64 said:

United Traders wasn’t made aware of this, and continued to market the car as having those options.

Hopefully who ever buys the Tesla can get their money back for false advertising.

Thats what the law courts are for.

 

 

[Unixsystem]

8 hours ago, Monkey Dust said:

I'll admit EVs don't need the expensive belt changes, but with most ICE cars it's not the engine that serves up the big bills. It's the suspension (I appreciate in the world of cars English English and American English diverge a lot, so apologies in advance to only making sense to other Brits), not the springs and dampers, but the various arms, links and bushings. The A/C needs servicing, wheel bearings don't last forever, wiper motors, window motors, seat motors. EV will be lower maintenance than ICE, but I doubt it's going to be the maintenance free utopia some think it is. 

 

Also, OTA updates, what happens when the car is no longer supported by the manufacturer? Will otherwise working cars have to be scrapped as the known, unpatched, security holes mount up? It could be unplugged I guess, but how will it affect self-driving if we reach the point where cars are communicating with each other?

 

And since we are all nominating the EV we'd buy if bank balance allowed, I'd go Jag I-Pace. Wasn't sure about the styling at first, I'd only seen black, white and silver ones. Then I saw a bright red one on 22" part carbon fibre wheels, that one looked proper. I'm not sure about the Taycan's styling. I've only seen pics and vids, so I'll reserve judgement for when I see one in the metal. 

 

 

I'm speaking from personal experience. Maybe higher quality luxury cars are built with a more robust engine, but for the average cheap sedans I've always driven almost every major non-routine level issue has been engine related. Even living in the rust belt suspension tends to outlast the rest of the car, at least for me. 

 

Even then, the routine tasks are going to be a lot fewer and far between. Fluid changes to my knowledge are essentially nonexistent, there are no spark plugs or filters to worry about, and while my understand is that electric cars have traditional brakes, the regenerative system takes at least some load off of them in day to day driving meaning they'll last a lot longer. Obviously I'm not saying it's gonna be perfect or that the car will never break down but the wear points are substantially reduced versus a typical sedan. 

 

Spoiler

It's worth noting that I've always driven used cars with a lot of miles, so my perspective may be a bit biased, but regardless I think the general points stay valid. 

 

[greenmax]

Why bother being confined to X amount of mileage.

Just buy a vehicle that is good on gas and suits your needs.

Fill it up with dead fossils and be on your way.

[RonnieOP]

1 hour ago, jagdtigger said:

You seem to forgot that right now there is no tax on electricity, but in the future this will change and low-and behold you will spend right around the same amount of money on charging...

What do you mean?

 

Im taxed on electricity right now.  And have been a long time.

[RonnieOP]

21 minutes ago, greenmax said:

Why bother being confined to X amount of mileage.

Just buy a vehicle that is good on gas and suits your needs.

Fill it up with dead fossils and be on your way.

Im confused by this statement.

 

You arent confined to x amount of miles. 

 

Yes you can only go x amount of miles on a single charge but you just rexharge it.

 

Its no different then being confined to x amount of miles per tank. You just refuel it.

 

Id say charging a car is much more better anyway as i can do it while my car is parked at home. No need to go to gas stations and what not.

[jagdtigger]

12 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

What do you mean?

 

Im taxed on electricity right now.  And have been a long time.

For vehicle charging or just a genera tax? (Based on what you wrote about how much you paid id guess its the latter.) For instance in my country the laws are already in place for taxing electricity used for EV charging(they didnt "activate them", they are just there so they can do it any time).

Edited February 15, 2020 by jagdtigger

[RonnieOP]

Just now, jagdtigger said:

For vehicle charging or just a genera tax? For instance in my country the laws are already in place for taxing electricity used for EV charging.

Im taxed for the electricity i use at home. Doesnt matter what im using it for the tax is the same. 

 

I dont see how they would be able to even charge me a new tax if i charged a vehicle as they would have no way of knowing what im using that electricity for. 

 

[jagdtigger]

1 minute ago, RonnieOP said:

Im taxed for the electricity i use at home. Doesnt matter what im using it for the tax is the same. 

 

I dont see how they would be able to even charge me a new tax if i charged a vehicle as they would have no way of knowing what im using that electricity for. 

 

There are many ways to do it:

• separate meter for the charger at your house
• meter built into the charger
• meter built into the car

Either way governments wont just let go one of their biggest income...

[RonnieOP]

5 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

There are many ways to do it:

• separate meter for the charger at your house
• meter built into the charger
• meter built into the car

Either way governments wont just let go one of their biggest income...

Most of that wouldnt work.

 

Seperate meter for the charger at home. Well i can technically charge the car from any outlet in my home. So that wouldnt work. I can also install a charger without anyone knowing unless they come in to my garage.

 

Meter built in to the charger. Again...thats if i use whatever charger the government wants me to. 

 

Meter built in to the car. They would have to retro fit every electric car. And they arent going to do that in the US atleast. 

 

Idk what you mean by the government losing income. They already tax electricity. So they are already profiting. If everyone moved to electric cars they would get more profit from the taxes already in place. 

 

This sounds more like a tinfoil hat conspiracy to me. 

[ARikozuM]

8 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

There are many ways to do it:

• separate meter for the charger at your house
• meter built into the charger
• meter built into the car

Either way governments wont just let go one of their biggest income...

That tax should not exist because 1) electricity is electricity, 2) there's no physical difference between a car and a toaster's electricity, and 3) they're already subsidized with taxes. 

 

If you're going to tax the car, which helps you pay your income taxes, we might as well tax the dishwasher or toaster. 

 

tl;dr: No taxes for things we're already taxed for. 

[Curious Pineapple]

6 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

There are many ways to do it:

• separate meter for the charger at your house
• meter built into the charger
• meter built into the car

Either way governments wont just let go one of their biggest income...

Can't stop me wiring the charger into the ringmain.

Can't stop me using different chargers.

Can't meter the car as the government can't tax my own solar or wind energy.

[jagdtigger]

11 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

Can't stop me wiring the charger into the ringmain.

Can't stop me using different chargers.

Can't meter the car as the government can't tax my own solar or wind energy.

Nothing can stop the government from taxing your whole electricity consumption until you get a fix wired charger with a meter.... (They will absolutely know you have an EV since they have access to the vehicle database.)

 

13 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

That tax should not exist because 1) electricity is electricity, 2) there's no physical difference between a car and a toaster's electricity,

But your toaster doesnt use the public road network....

 

 

18 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Most of that wouldnt work.

All of them will, they will know for 100% sure you have an EV. From there they either send out a tech to fit a fixed charger with a meter without you having any say in the matter, or version B is what i wrote above, tax the whole consumption until you comply with the law.

 

22 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Idk what you mean by the government losing income.

The taxes on fuels, and its not a tinfoil hat theory. Its pure economics. They will loose a pretty big income, so they will have to make up for it elsewhere. And since by then there will be no reason to promote EV's its the most feasible option for them. As for the means every country will have its own solutions, the most plausible scenario is where only certified technicians can get and install chargers with fixed cabling, then they will have to notify the power company to install the meter.

[ARikozuM]

Just now, jagdtigger said:

But your toaster doesnt use the public road network....

What are you talking about?! Here in the states we already pay a tax for the roads and for electricity. Adding another tax for the same thing is excessive. 

[Curious Pineapple]

1 minute ago, jagdtigger said:

Nothing can stop the government from taxing your whole electricity consumption until you get a fix wired charger with a meter.... (They will absolutely know you have an EV since they have access to the vehicle database.)

They already DO tax electricity, and where would they tax consumption anyway? Work? Home? Farm?  What about Renewables? Just because I own an EV doesn't mean it gets used or charged, I may buy one as a track or off road use car. In that case I have no obligation to pay tax on the fuel anyway. Don't pay fuel duty on wagons or farm vehicles here either. Don't even need to pay vehicle taxes on quad bikes and tractors if you own fields on opposite sides of a road (with limited usage).

[RonnieOP]

10 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Nothing can stop the government from taxing your whole electricity consumption until you get a fix wired charger with a meter.... (They will absolutely know you have an EV since they have access to the vehicle database.)

 

But your toaster doesnt use the public road network....

 

 

All of them will, they will know for 100% sure you have an EV. From there they either send out a tech to fit a fixed charger with a meter without you having any say in the matter, or version B is what i wrote above, tax the whole consumption until you comply with the law.

 

The taxes on fuels, and its not a tinfoil hat theory. Its pure economics. They will loose a pretty big income, so they will have to make up for it elsewhere. And since by then there will be no reason to promote EV's its the most feasible option for them. As for the means every country will have its own solutions, the most plausible scenario is where only certified technicians can get and install chargers with fixed cabling, then they will have to notify the power company to install the meter.

Again..electricity is already taxed. So not sure what you are getting at here.

Also they know i own the car. They have no way of knowing where its charged or parked. Hell my current cars are registered to an address in another state. Are they going to up my taxes for every house/building tied to me? What if i only charge at stations? 

 

And again. I dont need an electrician to install anything. 

You really believe that the government are going to be able to be the sole distributor of charging cables? Noone else will be able to make a charger for an electric car? 

 

Your whole argument is "they wont get oil money anymore so they are going to tax electric cars".

 

Well the US is now the largest exporter of oil. They couldve kept gas prices high to make more money. But they didint. Gas has gotten cheaper in most areas now. 

 

Yes your entire statement is a tin foil hat conspiracy with literally no factual evidence behind it.

 

For example the government wanted to start taxing my water usage despite me having my own well. That got shot down real fast.  So they are losing money off people using a well and arent making new laws.

 

What about solar? They lose money from people switching to that and the government GIVES you money for doing it.

 

Edit: as you can clearly see from other replies....you dont really know what your talking about here. Atleast not in my country (which is the subject here). 

 

Its not going to happen here. And again outside of you hollywood movie tin foil theory theres no reason to believe it would.

[Curious Pineapple]

Just now, RonnieOP said:

For example the government wanted to start taxing my water usage despite me having my own well. That got shot down real fast.  So they are losing money off people using a well and arent making new laws.

Taxed on water!?!?!?!? We pay a service charge for it but zero tax.